Missing Mass Is A Mortal Sin Yes Or No?

[Katholikos]

[quote name='Ragamuffin' post='1285100' date='May 31 2007, 10:12 AM']That's a tad simplistic and a tad insulting, though you might not have meant it that way.[/quote]

I was a raised Protestant and became an atheist. That was my experiece. There is a sign displayed outside many Protestant churches: worship service 10 a.m. (or whenever). That's what goes on in their worship services (some Lutherans and Episcopalians excepted). Been there. Done that. No insult intended. Just a statement of fact.

[quote]Does His covenant have an expiration date on it or something? I get that it's a means of grace and understand the Catholic view of its benefits to the worshipper, but again, we're not talking about a person who has made it a habit or pattern of missing mass frequently for frivolous reasons or abject laziness. And someone even suggested that he attend on Friday or some other day during the week to fulfill this rule and that was shot down as not good enough. Applying the call to "forsake not the assembling" in this manner seems to be making it a legalistic hoop to jump through...missing the spirit of the law in order to feel good about the letter of it.[/quote]

As with all the Church's laws, they apply only to Catholics. If one wants to be a Catholic, one accepts the Church's authority. This is a very wise law that has withstood the test of ages. It's neither about the letter or the spirit; it's about our duty and privilege to assist at the Sunday Sacrifice. The Jews were required to offer sacrifice when the Temple was available to them, and to celebrate Passover; we are required to celebrate the Eucharistic Sacrifice. Catholicism is the fulfillment of Judaism. Yes, Catholicism is demanding and difficult, just as Our Lord said it would be.

Your objection is duly noted. Thanks for your opinion.

Likos

[Ragamuffin]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1285138' date='May 31 2007, 10:46 AM']I was a raised Protestant and became an atheist. That was my experiece. There is a sign displayed outside many Protestant churches: worship service 10 a.m. (or whenever). That's what goes on in their worship services (some Lutherans and Episcopalians excepted). Been there. Done that. No insult intended. Just a statement of fact.[/quote]
That's what you've perceived goes on. They are gathering to worship God in a corporate fashion. Don't belittle it.


[quote]As with all the Church's laws, they apply only to Catholics. If one wants to be a Catholic, one accepts the Church's authority. This is a very wise law that has withstood the test of ages. It's neither about the letter or the spirit; it's about our duty and privilege to assist at the Sunday Sacrifice. The Jews were required to offer sacrifice when the Temple was available to them, and to celebrate Passover; we are required to celebrate the Eucharistic Sacrifice. Catholicism is the fulfillment of Judaism. Yes, Catholicism is demanding and difficult, just as Our Lord said it would be.

Your objection is duly noted. Thanks for your opinion.

Likos[/quote]
Again, this isn't about whether the Church has the authority to make this law. I'm questioning the strictness with which it is applied.

There's no need to be a snot. I don't need you to pat me on the head and note my objections. We're discussing things here, in a fashion that at least I have attempted to keep civil and open minded. Please give me the same consideration or find someone else to direct your condescending tone toward. If this isn't something you wish to do, let me know so I can regard your future posts in a fitting manner.

Now, if you wish to talk to me with some measure of mutual respect, I'd like for you to explain [i]how[/i] you think it is wise and not being overly rigid, not just tell me "this is how it is so deal with it."

Edited May 31, 2007 by Ragamuffin

[Katholikos]

[quote name='Ragamuffin' post='1285143' date='May 31 2007, 11:54 AM']That's what you've perceived goes on. They are gathering to worship God in a corporate fashion. Don't belittle it.
Again, this isn't about whether the Church has the authority to make this law. I'm questioning the strictness with which it is applied.

There's no need to be a snot. I don't need you to pat me on the head and note my objections. We're discussing things here, in a fashion that at least I have attempted to keep civil and open minded. Please give me the same consideration or find someone else to direct your condescending tone toward. If this isn't something you wish to do, let me know so I can regard your future posts in a fitting manner.

Now, if you wish to talk to me with some measure of mutual respect, I'd like for you to explain [i]how[/i] you think it is wise and not being overly rigid, not just tell me "this is how it is so deal with it."[/quote]

I regret that you find me condescending. That wasn't my intention at all. I wasn't belittling Protestant services, just describing them. How Protestants [i]experience[/i] them is another matter.

I must leave for the doctor's office.

Peace be with you,

Likos

[Katholikos]

Ragamuffin,

These articles present the Catholic perspective:

Why is it a Mortal Sin to Miss Mass?

[url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0007fea2.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0007fea2.asp[/url]

Forget Mass? Not a Mortal Sin

[url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0311fr.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0311fr.asp[/url]

Is it a mortal sin to miss Mass on Sundays?

[url="http://www.scborromeo.org/glad/c1.htm"]http://www.scborromeo.org/glad/c1.htm[/url]

I hope you find them helpful.

Peace be with you,

Jay

Edited to correct typo.

Edited June 1, 2007 by Katholikos

[reyb]

[indent]White Knight,

[indent][/indent]Judge it yourself; if you think attending mass is a must for salvation, what is more important than this? And if it is really God’s doctrine to have it, failure to attend even once for whatever reason, is more than enough for anyone to be hell. Thus, what do you think? We need to discuss ‘Mass’ in its truest sense.[list][/indent]
[/list]

[White Knight]

I spoke to a Preist about this. and he said the right thing to do would be to go to the party. but try to go somewhere else for Mass that weekend, since we dont have a late Mass on Sunday.

[reyb]

[indent][/indent][b]…..it is a mortal sin….[/b]
[indent][/indent]The answer is, by that decision, on that occasion, we turn our backs on Christ and on the process of our redemption. We refuse to carry out Christ's command to "do this" for the recalling and receiving of him and his salvation…by By Fr. Ray Ryland in [url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0007fea2.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0007fea2.asp[/url] in post #64 by Katolikos

[indent][/indent][b]… it is not a mortal sin…[/b]

[indent][/indent]If that kind of mistake is possible (even common, I think), so it is possible to err at the other end of the weekend. Imagine the case of a person who normally has Saturday and Sunday off but this week had to work on Saturday. He might wake up on Sunday and engage in his routines as though it were Saturday, realizing too late in the day that he missed Sunday Mass.

Did he commit a mortal sin by forgetting to attend Mass? No, since he did not intend to miss Mass. Without consent, there is no sin. Mortal sin requires three elements: serious matter, knowledge of the sinfulness of the act, and free consent. If any one of these is omitted, no mortal sin is committed….By Karl Keating in [url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0311fr.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0311fr.asp[/url] in post #64 by Katolikos.

[b][indent]…it not a mortal or venial sin but a sin or maybe a sin depending on the condition….[/indent][/b]
[indent][/indent]The 3rd Commandment tells us to keep the Lord's Day holy. In Old Testament times, God's people stopped working and gathered together for worship on the Sabbath, which was Saturday. However, the early Christians rested and came together to rejoice on Sunday because Jesus, Our Lord and Savior, rose from the dead on Easter Sunday morning. Sunday is not only a day of worship but a day of joy and family closeness.
Now as to whether it is a mortal sin or not. The three criteria for determining if a sin is mortal were described under the question on mortal and venial sin. It is a grave matter to miss Mass on Sunday. If we have full knowledge that it is a sinful matter to violate one of the Ten Commandments because it violates God's law, the second condition is met. If we realize that the 3rd Commandment requires us to gather together to worship and we know that it is a grave sinful matter to violate the Commandments, but the car won't start and there is no other way to get to Mass, the third condition has not been met. If however, we simply miss Mass because there is something else we would rather be doing (like playing golf, going to the beach, etc.) then a deliberate act has taken place and a mortal sin has been committed. It's like saying "I don't love God enough to spend some of my time with Him."….. From Questions from the parishioners of St.Charles Borromeo CatholicChurch Picayune, Mississippi ….see [url="http://www.scborromeo.org/glad/c1.htm"]http://www.scborromeo.org/glad/c1.htm[/url] in post #64 by Katolikos.

[indent][b]Conditional Sin? [/b][/indent]

[Ragamuffin]

I think part of my problem with viewing it in this manner is the other dominoes that fall as a result for those who believe as Catholics believe with regard to salvation. Mortal sin (even just one) causes one to lose their salvation. The idea that someone would be going to hell for missing Mass on a Sunday morning then dying later that day paints God in a horrible light. I mean, my earthly father (whose role is a model of God for me) certainly disciplined me for deliberate disobedience, but he didn't kick me out of the house and expel me from the family.

And in effect, it becomes a Catholic version of what Catholics chide so many Protestants about: that there aren't truly "degrees" of sin. In essence, missing Mass one Sunday is just as bad as premeditated murder, committing adultery, armed robbery or having homosexual sex.

Does anyone else not see this problem?

Edited June 4, 2007 by Ragamuffin

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Ragamuffin' post='1288081' date='Jun 4 2007, 01:08 PM']I think part of my problem with viewing it in this manner is the other dominoes that fall as a result for those who believe as Catholics believe with regard to salvation. Mortal sin (even just one) causes one to lose their salvation. The idea that someone would be going to hell for missing Mass on a Sunday morning then dying later that day paints God in a horrible light. I mean, my earthly father (whose role is a model of God for me) certainly disciplined me for deliberate disobedience, but he didn't kick me out of the house and expel me from the family.

And in effect, it becomes a Catholic version of what Catholics chide so many Protestants about: that there aren't truly "degrees" of sin. In essence, missing Mass one Sunday is just as bad as premeditated murder, committing adultery, armed robbery or having homosexual sex.

Does anyone else not see this problem?[/quote]
OK, I'm going to take a stab at this. If I mess it up, someone wiser and smarter feel free to correct me.

I think what you're missing is the distinction between the temporal effects of the sin and the eternal effects of the sin.

Mortal sin, by definition, is sin that severs our relationship with God. That's the eternal effect of any mortal sin. However, sins that have that same eternal effect will have different temporal effects. The temporal effect is the consequence of the sin here and now. Purposefully missing Mass may not gravely injure anyone in my life, but it does gravely damage my relationship with God. The temporal consequences are slight, but the eternal consequences are serious.

Does that help?

[Ragamuffin]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1288682' date='Jun 5 2007, 11:23 AM']OK, I'm going to take a stab at this. If I mess it up, someone wiser and smarter feel free to correct me.

I think what you're missing is the distinction between the temporal effects of the sin and the eternal effects of the sin.

Mortal sin, by definition, is sin that severs our relationship with God. That's the eternal effect of any mortal sin. However, sins that have that same eternal effect will have different temporal effects. The temporal effect is the consequence of the sin here and now. Purposefully missing Mass may not gravely injure anyone in my life, but it does gravely damage my relationship with God. The temporal consequences are slight, but the eternal consequences are serious.

Does that help?[/quote]
I was only thinking of the eternal effect, though your explanation sounds a lot like Protestants who give the "sin is sin" line in this debate. No one would argue that the temporal consequences of a sin differ by degree.

My problem is that classifying missing Mass as a mortal sin, combined with the Catholic understanding of how one loses salvation makes for a pretty monstrous representation of God in my view. That one would be sent to hell in the scenario I described above seems out of character for Him.

Edited June 5, 2007 by Ragamuffin

[reyb]

[indent]Therefore, missing a mass is a mortal sin?[/indent]

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Ragamuffin' post='1288690' date='Jun 5 2007, 11:45 AM']I was only thinking of the eternal effect, though your explanation sounds a lot like Protestants who give the "sin is sin" line in this debate. No one would argue that the temporal consequences of a sin differ by degree.

My problem is that classifying missing Mass as a mortal sin, combined with the Catholic understanding of how one loses salvation makes for a pretty monstrous representation of God in my view. That one would be sent to hell in the scenario I described above seems out of character for Him.[/quote]
I think, though, that you are classifying this as less serious because the temporal effects are not as great ... you're equating temporal and eternal effects. It's not that big a deal to miss church, so why should God make all this fuss about it?

The key is to look to the damage that this does to a person's relationship with God. That is where the harm is, in the deliberate disobedience, the refusal to participate in relationship.

Remember when Samuel was visiting Jesse's family to meet the new king, and he kept thinking that one of David's older brothers was fit for the job? God said that man looks at outward appearance but God looks at the heart. The same is true when it comes to sin. We judge the seriousness of sin by the temporal, outward consequences of it, but God knows our hearts and judges our sin based on that. Deliberately refusing to participate in relationship with God in the Mass is an indication of a heart problem.

I think it's also instructive to look to Jesus' equating looking at a woman with lust in your heart and adultery. Interior sins sever a relationship with God, even though they appear to be not as serious. The issue is the state of your heart.

[Ragamuffin]

Well, to some degree, so does the Catholic Church. The first of the three requirements for something being a mortal sin is that it is a "grave matter." How do you determine what is a grave matter if not by taking into account the temporal nature of the action? Murder isn't a grave matter just because. It's a grave matter because you took someone's life. I just don't see how missing Mass one time (not habitually or regularly) meets the first criteria.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Ragamuffin' post='1288705' date='Jun 5 2007, 06:07 PM']Well, to some degree, so does the Catholic Church. The first of the three requirements for something being a mortal sin is that it is a "grave matter." How do you determine what is a grave matter if not by taking into account the temporal nature of the action? Murder isn't a grave matter just because. It's a grave matter because you took someone's life. I just don't see how missing Mass one time (not habitually or regularly) meets the first criteria.[/quote]

A general rule on it being grave is to be against one of the 10 Commandments. So lying, while not having as much of a temporal consequence, can be a mortal sin if done deliberately. Hope that clears it up a little.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Ragamuffin' post='1288705' date='Jun 5 2007, 12:07 PM']Well, to some degree, so does the Catholic Church. The first of the three requirements for something being a mortal sin is that it is a "grave matter." How do you determine what is a grave matter if not by taking into account the temporal nature of the action? Murder isn't a grave matter just because. It's a grave matter because you took someone's life. I just don't see how missing Mass one time (not habitually or regularly) meets the first criteria.[/quote]
[url="http://jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2007/01/grave_matter.html"]Here's a good answer to that question. [/url]
He doesn't specifically address missing Mass, but the whole concept of "grave matter" in general.

an excerpt:
[quote]In trying to relate this distinction to the traditional formulation that some sins have light matter (making them venial) while others have grave matter (making them potentially mortal), it is tempting to say that any sin, if done to an extreme enough degree, will have grave matter, and thus that all sins are potentially grave, it being parvity of matter that prevents them from being grave.

I am inclined toward this view, and in the process of checking it out, I've asked others trained in moral theology whether they can think of any sins that always have light matter, that never could be grave no matter the extreme degree to which they are carried. They haven't been able to think of any, and neither have I. Thus I'm inclined to say everything is potentially grave if carried out in an extreme enough fashion.

Where the dividing line is crossed between grave and non-grave matter is not clear. The gravity of the matter is based on the harm done, and there is not an objective standard by which we can judge harm. There are certain clear and commonly agreed upon reference points (e.g., anything that would take a life would be grave; anything that would cause mild annoyance would be non-grave), but ultimately the assessment of gravity is a matter that can only be subjectively assessed, leading to the common rule that those who are non-scrupulous should go ahead and confess if there is doubt about whether a sin was grave and those who are scrupulous should confess only when they are sure that the sin was grave.![/quote]