Legitimacy Of The Death Penalty

[kujo]

Okay, not to bump this thread back onto topic here or anything...

[b]BUT...[/b]

I think this topic is complicated. I am ardently pro-life and protest against all attacks on the dignity and sanctity of human life--abortion, euthanasia, the death penalty, pornography, contraception, poverty, genocide, lack of health-care, crappy education, etc. I think that our government should concern itself with protecting [b]ALL AMERICAN CITIZENS[/b] right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (thanks John Locke)!

Here's where the rub comes into play:

If a person attacked you with the intent to kill you, and you and the person struggled and your were forced to kill him/her in self defense, have you committed a sin? Furthermore, should you find yourself in some sort of moral cognitive dissonance?

I think the answer to that is no. If you [b]must[/b] kill in order to protect yourself or your family, there is no sin in what you've done. Although, to be honest, if I killed a person, I would have a hard time rationalizing it and getting it off my conscience. I'd sure have to have a lot of support from my confessor, that's for sure!

Anyway, the point I'm making here is that if a person is an immediate threat to the well-being and safety of society, then yes, he/she could be killed by the state If a person like Saddam Hussein or Osama Bin Laden were to be caught and imprisoned, there would be a need for the highest level of security around them, for their followers would constantly try to free them; moreover, while in prison, they could write books and articles for the New York Times and make videos and stuff that would forment their message of hate. This is why, though it is detestable and sickening, it is necessary to kill these people; [b]HOWEVER[/b], as the CCC says, such cases are few and far between these days. The average criminal poses little to no danger of escaping or spewing out propaganda that would rally the troops.

I think the best thing to do in our country is to change what it means to be sentenced to prison. First of, parole is garbage. If you are sentenced to 7 years, that is your sentence. No rewards for good behavior. I behave well everyday at work, that doesn't mean I get to go home early! Furthermore, Prison needs to be HARSH, UNCOMFORTABLE, AND DEPRESSING. I don't want them playing X-box or having satellite TV or any of that stuff. They should sit in their cells for most of the day, getting out to eat and for the minimal amount of exercise that is require to avoid muscular atrophy. If they want to further their education, they have to EARN it.

I'm done. Let's keep things civil, guys. No name calling. No shouting. You can murder someone with your words as well...

[kujo]

I'd also like to say that the life in a maximum security prison stripped of the cushiness of other prisons would absolutely be MORE of a deterrant to crime than the death penalty.

[aalpha1989]

i agree with pretty much everything kujo said. yay kujo! i would've said the same thing, pretty much...i've always found a moral dilemma about hussein and bin laden....idk what should be done. kujo does make some good points though...

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='jckinsman' post='1285976' date='Jun 1 2007, 03:08 PM']I agree, Full Repentance is a must! Execution though?[/quote]
I might have not made myself very clear in the last post. I believe that in cases of full repentance the sentence should be reduced and the one in question should not be put to death, but some other significant punishment should still be in place. But not the death penalty for those who show full remorse.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='catholicinsd' post='1286110' date='Jun 1 2007, 07:52 PM']It because of fanatics such as you- who advocate the murder of the doctors- that the anti-abortion has been harassed so very much. The blood of many is on your hands. You would be ashamed of yourself- but you don't have those scrupples, or any.

[b]You are not pro-life. You aren't even anti-abortion; as you obviously favor aborting the doctor's life. [/b]

May God have pity on your murderous soul.

P[/quote]

I suppose I am not pro-ALL-life. I am pro-innocent-life. I do believe in the death penalty in cases where guilt is proven and remorse is not shown by the sinner. Whatever may result from that stance I can live with that on my conscience just fine. My faith teaches that the death penalty is a viable punishment for those that fit the crime. I have no reason to disagree with this judgment.

And yes I hope God does have mercy on the poor sinner that I am. But for some reason my soul is quite content supporting the death penalty for unrepentant murderers. Just as an unrepentant sinner deserves hell, so to does an unrepentant murderer deserve not only hell but a physical death as well. If the murderer is fully sorry for his sin(s) then I believe some lesser punishment would be sufficient just as a repentant sinner (I believe) will often have to spend some time in purgatory. If it's "uncharitable" of me then that's the way it is. I believe true charity, true love for your neighbor, is informing them of the grave danger they can get into for these sins. True charity is NOT simply "letting things go" just so that you don't offend the other. Is it less loving to let someone go to hell, or to offend them? If I have the choice I'll take the latter any day. May be my mistake, but one I can certainly live with.

Edited June 2, 2007 by goldenchild17

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='catholicinsd' post='1286362' date='Jun 1 2007, 09:37 PM']At present it isn't a crime, and certainly not one warranting death.

And you know what? It probably would be a crime if not for the zealots like you.[/quote]
This statement is heretical.

If the positive law of the State contradicts the divine and natural law, it is an abuse, and no one can in good conscience support it.

Doctors who perform the crime of abortion (i.e., the murder of the innocent in the womb), should be prosecuted for murder, and they should suffer the maximum penalty.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1286299' date='Jun 1 2007, 09:10 PM']Apo hasn't said he's advocating murder. I'm guessing he's not sure whether it's okay or not. Or, just not wanting to provoke anything.
He does have a way of stating things so vaguely that sometimes I think it's a way for him to not face issues.
Maybe he doen't like to admit he doesn't know, as that'd clarify a lot.
Who knows, but it sure is interesting.[/quote]
Of course I am not advocating murder (i.e., the killing of the innocent), but I am advocating the prosecution and punishment (including the possibility of recourse to the death penalty) of doctors who kill innocent human beings (whether by abortion or euthansia).

God bless,
Todd

[KnightofChrist]

The Death Penalty is a punishment, and not so much a deterrent. Society must be protected from murders and killers. Society consist of people in the public, and believe it or not people in prison.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1286463' date='Jun 2 2007, 02:24 AM']The Death Penalty is a punishment, and not so much a deterrent. Society must be protected from murders and killers. Society consist of people in the public, and believe it or not people in prison.[/quote]
Yes, as Pope Pius XII indicated, the purpose of the death penalty is the restoration of tranquility (i.e., order) by the punishment of the malefactor.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1285249' date='May 31 2007, 02:59 PM']considering that the catechism segment came from JPII's document, as cited in the first post, how do you say it's not infallible?[/quote]
The last two paragraphs of the quotation from the Catechism are prudential in nature, and prudential judgments are not covered by the charism of infallibility. A prudential judgment is an application of theoretical wisdom to a particular case, and such judgments are by definition case specific, and cannot be made into a universal norm.

Moreover, the Church's Magisterium, in agreement with the revealed Word of God -- contained in both scripture and tradition -- permit the State to execute criminals.

[catholicinsd]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1286459' date='Jun 2 2007, 03:43 AM']I suppose I am not pro-ALL-life. I am pro-innocent-life. I do believe in the death penalty in cases where guilt is proven and remorse is not shown by the sinner. Whatever may result from that stance I can live with that on my conscience just fine. My faith teaches that the death penalty is a viable punishment for those that fit the crime. I have no reason to disagree with this judgment.

And yes I hope God does have mercy on the poor sinner that I am. But for some reason my soul is quite content supporting the death penalty for unrepentant murderers. Just as an unrepentant sinner deserves hell, so to does an unrepentant murderer deserve not only hell but a physical death as well. If the murderer is fully sorry for his sin(s) then I believe some lesser punishment would be sufficient just as a repentant sinner (I believe) will often have to spend some time in purgatory. If it's "uncharitable" of me then that's the way it is. I believe true charity, true love for your neighbor, is informing them of the grave danger they can get into for these sins. True charity is NOT simply "letting things go" just so that you don't offend the other. Is it less loving to let someone go to hell, or to offend them? If I have the choice I'll take the latter any day. May be my mistake, but one I can certainly live with.[/quote]

If abortion doctor should be murdered as you say, then you should be brought up on terrorism charges.

[jckinsman]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1286443' date='Jun 2 2007, 01:44 AM']No I wasn't raised in Lakewood, I actually was raised 3 months of the year on Tulalip Native Reservation [Everett], then in Federalway and tacoma. However, I don't understand where your sarcasm comes from...

How was my comment meant to make you laugh and why would you take it as something to mock me over? I was telling about a song that exists on this very topic of abortion, that you might be interested in [from a local hiphop cru native of washington] and you pretty much insult me.

Reza[/quote]
I 'am truly sorry my mistake. I do not listen to ANY kind of music like that at all. I had a bad experiance with rap /hip hop type music and my teenagers. We do not allow it in the home. I really have a hard time thinking that any of it could be good.(Until 5 point covenant ) I took your comment as sarcastic to my telling the story of the Doctors. I do apologize for my mistake. It's hard to understand the way people mean things when they type it. I take abortion very seriously,and I go on the defense quickly when it comes to this subject. Will you for give me? JC

[kujo]

[quote name='catholicinsd' post='1286538' date='Jun 2 2007, 12:28 PM']If abortion doctor should be murdered as you say, then you should be brought up on terrorism charges.[/quote]

Terrorism charges? Why? Because he feels that murderers should be put to death? I don't agree with him whatsoever, but his beliefs are not [i]terrorism[/i].

Now, if he were to act out those beliefs by harming abortionists, there'd be a problem. But, as it is now, he believes that the state should prosecute abortionists and condemn them to death.

Terrorism? No.

[Jaime]

[quote name='kujo' post='1286449' date='Jun 2 2007, 12:11 AM']I'd also like to say that the life in a maximum security prison stripped of the cushiness of other prisons would absolutely be MORE of a deterrant to crime than the death penalty.[/quote]

The death penalty has never been a deterrent. So this statement doesn't make sense

[kujo]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1286570' date='Jun 2 2007, 01:27 PM']The death penalty has never been a deterrent. So this statement doesn't make sense[/quote]

I think you misunderstand my point.

I am saying that life in prison is MORE of a deterrant than the death penalty which is NOT a deterrant at any statistically-significant level.

We are in agreement Jamie. Bless you!

[Sojourner]

It's true that studies have shown states without the death penalty actually have lower murder rates than those with it. It's a weird correlation, but it kinda makes sense.

I would think that when people commit crimes it is generally either because they don't think they'll get caught, or they don't care about the consequences if they do get caught, or they are unaware of the consequences of getting caught.

Increased enforcement -- making it more likely a lawbreaker would get caught -- seems it might be a more effective deterrent than harsher punishments. Even in states where the DP is applied, it is applied so infrequently that there is no certainty that a particular crime will get it. It's even been applied unevenly in individual crimes from time to time -- one participant ends up on death row while the other gets life in prison. That kind of application renders it largely ineffective as a punishment. For it to be truly a deterrent there would need to be some degree of certainty that X action will result in death. Such certainty doesn't exist. Except maybe in Texas.

[Jaime]

Saweet!


Blessings back at you

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='catholicinsd' post='1286538' date='Jun 2 2007, 10:28 AM']If abortion doctor should be murdered as you say, then you should be brought up on terrorism charges.[/quote]

Okay, but for what? For advocating the punishment of a murder?

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='kujo' post='1286564' date='Jun 2 2007, 11:19 AM']Terrorism charges? Why? Because he feels that murderers should be put to death? I don't agree with him whatsoever, but his beliefs are not [i]terrorism[/i].

Now, if he were to act out those beliefs by harming abortionists, there'd be a problem. But, as it is now, he believes that the state should prosecute abortionists and condemn them to death.

Terrorism? No.[/quote]

yes, I would never advocate abortion clinic bombings or anything a number of extremists have done. There is a legitimate way to handle these situations that is advocated by my Church. The Death Penalty, I believe, is a justifiable punishment. This does not mean that I would ever go and murder them myself.

[kujo]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1286604' date='Jun 2 2007, 02:33 PM']yes, I would never advocate abortion clinic bombings or anything a number of extremists have done. There is a legitimate way to handle these situations that is advocated by my Church. The Death Penalty, I believe, is a justifiable punishment. This does not mean that I would ever go and murder them myself.[/quote]

What Church are you a member of, just curious.