One True Church

[reyb]

[quote name='Lord Philip' post='1335783' date='Jul 20 2007, 04:19 PM']Dear Reyb,

"Now, will you accept that Protestants are blessed by the Holy Spirit as that of the bishops and priest of the Catholics?"

Many, if not most, Protestants, yes. But as a Catholic I would say that Protestants do not receive this in its fullness, whereas Catholic bishops, priests and laymen have access to this fullness (though only the saints COMPLETELY embody this fullness in this lifetime).

"If not, do you think it is possible for a man with a lying spirit to see the ‘light of the gospel of glory of Christ, who is the image of God’ if we will consider the above verses? Furthermore, it is written in 1 Cor 12:3 - "3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit." Are not Protestants saying ‘Jesus is Lord’? Again, is it possible for a man with a lying spirit to say ‘Jesus is Lord’ if we will consider 1 cor 12:3?"

Reyb, you are making the same mistake you made earlier: just because a Protestant does not accept the Catholic Church as the true Church of Jesus Christ, this does not mean they do not have access to salvation or to the Holy Spirit. The Catholic Church is not a box that contains the Holy Spirit and then outside the box there is no Holy Spirit. Rather, the Catholic Church is a fountain that bursts forth with the Spirit of God and the Spirit of God fills the earth. Protestants have access to the Spirit of God and can therefore say "Jesus is Lord" right alongside his Catholic brother.


God bless you, Reyb. I look forward to your response!

With Christ’s love,

Philip Wilson[/quote]


[indent]If I will follow what you have said that Protestants are blessed by the Holy Spirit in relation to 1 cor 12:3, do you mean Protestant Baptismal rites are effective and binding as that of the Sacrament of Baptism in the Roman Catholic Church? [/indent]

[color="#FF0000"][indent][indent]It is written John 14:25-27

25 "All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid. [/indent][/indent][/color]

[indent]Now, if Protestants have the blessing of the Holy Spirit and the above verse is applicable to them and eventually into their salvation, why then it is still necessary to be in the fold of Roman Catholic Church in order to acquire the fullness of the Holy Spirit? [/indent]

[indent][indent][color="#0000FF"]Catechism of Catholic Church states

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336[/indent][/indent][/color]

[indent]Of course, you may say these protestant though do not recognized the Roman Catholic Church as the True Church of Christ but still can have access to salvation because the next paragraph states like this: [/indent]

[color="#0000FF"][indent][indent]847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337[/indent][/indent][/color]

[indent]But, how come they learn to recognize Jesus as their Lord by the power of the Holy Spirit but failed to recognized the True Church of Christ (from where it must be together – the Head and the Body)? [/indent]

[reyb]

[quote name='Lord Philip' post='1335783' date='Jul 20 2007, 04:19 PM']Dear Reyb,

Reyb, you must be careful in how you interpret the Scriptures and how you interpret Catholic Teaching. You have been asking me how I can believe Protestants have a "lying spirit" and still say the Jesus is Lord. I have never said that Protestants are people with "lying spirits." The Catholic Church certainly does not teach that. My beloved Protestant family (my mother, father, sisters, uncles, aunts, etc.) certainly are not people with "lying spirits". They love Christ so deeply that I have much to learn from them. This is the same Holy Spirit working in them as in you and I.

Philip Wilson[/quote]

[indent][post="1312672"]As I have already said, this is just for presentation[/post][/indent].

[reyb]

[indent]About Sacred Tradition - Let us discuss it in another topic.
Thank you, Philip.[/indent]

Edited July 22, 2007 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='Ora et Labora' post='1335802' date='Jul 20 2007, 05:05 PM']I just wanted to say welcome to the Phamily and I'm sure many people on this phorum can answer all of your questions. We have smart, good people here.

Ok, sorry for going off topic..

[/quote]

[indent]I wish I will always be welcome the way you say it to me nevertheless, you can count on me as a true brother. Thank you.
Rey Baltazar C. Tolentino [/indent]

[reyb]

[quote name='Lord Philip' post='1335783' date='Jul 20 2007, 04:19 PM']Dear Reyb,

So we arrive at the final question, which I will pose to you.

On what grounds does the Protestant church reject the teachings of Christ and insert their own novel interpretations into matters of doctrine? On what authority do Protestants interpret the Scriptures and declare their differing interpretations as the Word of God? Why should I trust a Protestant mind and novel science of exegesis above the Word of God and the teaching authority that Christ himself established? Why should I trust a thinker who lived 1500 years after Christ and who tried to eject the books of James, Hebrews and Revelations from the Bible rather than the witnesses of Christ himself? Why should I align myself with a church that is constantly changing with the world like a chameleon? Why should I join an organization that is founded on rebellion and sedition instead of the institution and ordination of Christ?

Reyb, you should consider these questions. Everything you asked me about the Catholic Church can equally be asked of the Protestant churches. The difference is that the Catholic Church answers with thundering clarity and visible, historical verifiability. The Protestant Church has no answer; at least, none that I have yet heard.

God bless you, Reyb. I look forward to your response!

With Christ’s love,

Philip Wilson[/quote]

[indent]I am not the one who needs to answer these questions. It should be the Protestants and even Catholics too. Since you are one body and sharing one spirit but trying to demean each other. As I have said [post="1312672"]Catholics and Protestants looked and lead into one – to the one I called historical Jesus[/post].

Nevertheless, according to them, they are upholding, keeping, and doing the teachings of the apostles and of Jesus Christ. Their interpretation to the scripture does not depend on their own proficiency nor they add or subtract anything from it. It is a ‘God’s revealed doctrine’ through the power and guidance of the Holy Spirit.

They believe in the reality of their anointing thru whatever baptismal rites they practice and professing that ‘Jesus is Lord’ is just one of many proofs of having the blessing of the Holy Spirit. Some protestant speak in others tongue, cure sicknesses, lame walk, blind can see, exorcist devil, even dead comes to life, prophetic future telling including the coming of Armageddon and the least of all, their wishes was granted. Hence, it is not surprising for them to fight one another because some protestant do not accept Armageddon issue but they speak in tongue. Some do not speak in tongue but cure sickness thru prayers without medicine. While none of them are really proven but still, all of them are written in the scripture.


Thus, it is not surprising too for them to dumb the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church especially the Sacred Tradition, Marian devotion, and the integrity of apostolic succession because none of them are written in the scripture. They scrap all teachings that are not written in scripture and branded them as man’s doctrine’ while proving they are right via 1 John 2:27 and other verses in the scripture. Thus, they called themselves ‘bible based’ churches.

It seems Holy Spirit in our time is like a toy, a buy-one-take-one stuff. All of them have the blessing of the Holy Spirit while Apollos - who is a learned man with a thorough knowledge of the Scripture; a man instructed in the way of the Lord, spoke with great fervor and taught about Jesus accurately; and who refuted the Jews in public debate proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ – do not know the Holy Spirit because he knew only the baptism of John. (See Acts 18:24-19:4).

I want to give emphasis on this. He proved from the scriptures that Jesus is Christ. But what scripture is it that the Jews will heed to accept as basis for their debate? It cannot be what you called ‘New Testament’. Otherwise, the Jews will not put themselves into a fight. It must be a scripture used and honored by the Jews and Apollos. Now, is there anybody who can prove that Jesus is the Christ using the Old Testament? Considering Apollos lack the guidance of the Holy Spirit, how come they believe that they know the scripture too well?

So, what can I say about Protestant’s authority other than ‘faith’? It is their ‘faith’ that gives them authority and they are very proud it. Thus, they love to quote John 3:16-18. To tell you frankly, if you will say this thing to them, they will fought back saying the same thing –from whom your authority comes from? And that is where we are going in ‘Sacred Tradition’ post.

You said ‘[post="1335783"]Everything you asked me about the Catholic Church can equally be asked of the Protestant churches[/post]’. Yes and I am willing to discuss it with them, that is why in the beginning of this post I said ‘Because of many different kinds of religion and even denomination within Christian religion, claiming this subject ‘One True Church’; May I ask;…. Is it true or just a belief as the only church?[/indent]

[Laudate_Dominum]

Catholics enjoy the mother ship connection. The Church is the mother ship. This can be proved. Amen.

[reyb]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1341215' date='Jul 26 2007, 06:44 AM']Catholics enjoy the mother ship connection. The Church is the mother ship. This can be proved. Amen.[/quote]
[indent]That is dangerous. It is what we call 'pride'.[/indent]

[Noel's angel]

Can I ask a question? I don't mean to be rude, but I've noticed something a bit 'off'. Reyb, why do you sometimes speak in what I would call 'broken-English', yet other times you speak very eloquently?? It just doesn't ring true to me.
Sorry if I'm causing offence. I'm just curious.

[reyb]

[quote name='Noel's angel' post='1341308' date='Jul 26 2007, 10:28 AM']Can I ask a question? I don't mean to be rude, but I've noticed something a bit 'off'. Reyb, why do you sometimes speak in what I would call 'broken-English', yet other times you speak very eloquently?? It just doesn't ring true to me.
Sorry if I'm causing offence. I'm just curious.[/quote]
[indent]English is not our native language although we used it in school and seldom I speak in English. And usually, when I write directly to the board. I have no time to re-write or review whatever I put in there. Sorry for all wrong spelling and grammar or whatever. I am hoping that sooner or later I can cope with it. [/indent]

[mortify]

[quote]am not the one who needs to answer these questions. It should be the Protestants and even Catholics too. Since you are one body and sharing one spirit but trying to demean each other.[/quote]

I thought Protestants are [i]outside[/i] of the fold.

[quote]"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."[/quote]
Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (1441)

[reyb]

[quote name='reyb' post='1341237' date='Jul 26 2007, 08:11 AM'][indent]That is dangerous. It is what we call 'pride'.[/indent][/quote]
[indent] I do not see it. Ah yes maybe. [/indent]

[Noel's angel]

[quote name='reyb' post='1341329' date='Jul 26 2007, 05:00 PM'][indent]English is not our native language although we used it in school and seldom I speak in English. And usually, when I write directly to the board. I have no time to re-write or review whatever I put in there. Sorry for all wrong spelling and grammar or whatever. I am hoping that sooner or later I can cope with it. [/indent][/quote]


It's not the mistakes I'm referring to, it's the fact that sometimes your English is perfect, but in other instances it's a bit muddled. I'm just confused.

E.g.
This: "Let me guess, are you fall in love with a priest?" (Taken from a thread in the Transmundane Lane)

Compared to this: "Now, if Protestants have the blessing of the Holy Spirit and the above verse is applicable to them and eventually into their salvation, why then it is still necessary to be in the fold of Roman Catholic Church in order to acquire the fullness of the Holy Spirit?" (Taken from a previous post in this thread)

Edited July 26, 2007 by Noel's angel

[reyb]

[quote name='Noel's angel' post='1341401' date='Jul 26 2007, 12:54 PM']It's not the mistakes I'm referring to, it's the fact that sometimes your English is perfect, but in other instances it's a bit muddled. I'm just confused.

E.g.
This: "Let me guess, are you fall in love with a priest?" (Taken from a thread in the Transmundane Lane)

Compared to this: "Now, if Protestants have the blessing of the Holy Spirit and the above verse is applicable to them and eventually into their salvation, why then it is still necessary to be in the fold of Roman Catholic Church in order to acquire the fullness of the Holy Spirit?" (Taken from a previous post in this thread)[/quote]
[indent]I don't get it. I send a message. Please tell me about it. Okay?[/indent]

[Socrates]

[quote name='reyb' post='1341237' date='Jul 26 2007, 07:11 AM'][indent]That is dangerous. It is what we call 'pride'.[/indent][/quote]
It's not pride. It's a fact which has over 2000 years of history and tradition to back it up.

The Catholic Church alone can claim unbroken Apostolic successsion and teaching authority all the way back to Christ Himself. ("And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." ~ Matt. 16:18)
No other sect can make this claim - every other denomination can be traced back to a founder at some specific time much later (Martin Luther, [i]et al[/i]).

Submitting to the truth of the Catholic Faith requires not pride, but humility. It means submitting ones own opinions and ideas to a higher wisdom and authority, rather than saying in effect "screw what the Church teaches - I'm smarter and have it all figured out on my own, and will believe whatever I want to."
And it's not like the Church is some kind of exclusive elitist club looking down on non-members - everybody is openly invited to join; that's what "Catholic" means.

Edited July 27, 2007 by Socrates

[reyb]

[indent]Sacred Tradition is indeed the pride of the Catholics against any other believer and there is nothing wrong to have pride; provided, you are one with the body of Christ. As Apostle Paul said, in 2 Cor 5:12

[color="#FF0000"][indent]12 We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart.[/indent][/color]
But you have an obligation, [color="#FF0000"]so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart.[/color]
Why it is dangerous? There are two different ‘pride’ in the above verse.


[post="1312672"]Please read just for info[/post].[/indent]

Edited July 27, 2007 by reyb