Where Should Catholic Music Go From Here?

[Guest]

[quote name='abercius24' post='1322251' date='Jul 10 2007, 08:44 AM']Rap is a confrontational form of art, no doubt. It makes sense that it should be right there on the front lines. How do you get on the front lines, though? How do you be confrontational to the sinner without getting at least someone angry and ruining your chances of returning? It almost sounds like protest rallies are a good venue for Catholic rap. What do you think?[/quote]


ya i agree......protest rallies would be a great venue.......we just need to get into places where there will be a secular artist and then we have to come with talent that is just as equal to the secular talent that is also performing.......A perfect example is the Sammy Blaze cd, man it doesnt get much better then that....The message is right there in your face, I mean right there in your face, but at the same time it isnt shoved down your throat......It gives the listner a chance to take in what he is sayen and feel it and then make their own decision........Every thing from the cover down to the tracks......Its on point

In my opionon thats where I think alot of where the catholic hiphop has to move to.....We got the talent to put out just as good of music as the secular artist are puttting out.....And then once we have the music we need to be relentless and go out there and promote it.....We need to find venues and start performing it......I know its easier said and done but its possible......

[zealousrap]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1307064' date='Jun 30 2007, 09:22 PM']I think a lot of that could change if we would get ourselves organized. I know the artists post links here and there, but that's the problem. Just posting a link to music may get you a few listens, but it doesn't keep people around and involved. When I go to an artists website and I see that they rarely update it, I lose my interest as a fan because I feel like why should I care if they don't seem to care enough to keep us updated? We have a bunch of different phorums for each artist, plus a muzik phorum, everything is scattered everywhere, there is no link to the radio, no real information in the music section of the website.

As far as people not liking rap music, I don't think that's a major issue. I like rap music and you like rap music and a lot of the people who come here like rap music. We don't need to appeal to people who don't like what we're doing, we only have to appeal to people who share our interests. If that gets recognized by the larger Catholic community then that's great, but first we have to build up our own thing and worry about the rest later.

We have to work together more as well, because there's not a lot of us. Why not make a new collaboration mix with all the Phatmass artists every few months and sell it as a download, and put the money toward individual albums? We can come up with 6 solid tracks every few months to keep the music going and keep interest.

I don't know, but I think we should think about doing something to make the Hip Hop more organized and prominent here. Not just the music but to keep the artists visible and the fans involved. How many of the artists post here on a regular basis? I know they're busy and I'm not blaming them for that, but if we were better organized with maybe someone running a Hip Hop section of the site, they could contact the artists and get updates and post samples of new music and all that kind of stuff.[/quote]

I want to go back to this...

I think it's valid stuff you are mentioning but you have to realize that NOBODY supports Catholic rap with their time and money...I am talking about promoters, producers, all kinds of people. The protestant rap is successful because they have the wheels turning from the top to the bottom of the ladder. We Catholic rappers have to do everything ourselves, which is a lot of work considering we need to have jobs etc because the music isn't making us money. We all want to do a ton of more stuff for you guys, but
"He said to them, 'The harvest is abundant but the laborers are few; so ask the master of the harvest to send out laborers for his harvest."
~Luke 10:2

I mean seriously, my cd has been 100% done recording since May, and there is no way for me to release it because there is no funding, besides the very small revenue that t-shirts and cd's bring in. We need Catholics that believe in this ministry, and that can afford it to seriously pray about whether they are called to help fund these projects. We all want the same thing, but if it's to be done right and if it's to be done with the quality that is needed in order for our message to be heard, we need more donations and funding. And as The Apologist said in his appearance with Spirit Juice, there simply isn't enough support right now.
This was not meant to come across in a negative way, nor was it a blast against non-donaters...I was simply trying to make the point that there needs to be funding from somewhere, and I feel like there are a lot of Catholics and Catholic organizations out there that could help. Alright I'm done haha

[Didymus]

[quote name='zealousrap' post='1323210' date='Jul 10 2007, 04:58 PM']I want to go back to this...

I think it's valid stuff you are mentioning but you have to realize that NOBODY supports Catholic rap with their time and money...I am talking about promoters, producers, all kinds of people. The protestant rap is successful because they have the wheels turning from the top to the bottom of the ladder. We Catholic rappers have to do everything ourselves, which is a lot of work considering we need to have jobs etc because the music isn't making us money. We all want to do a ton of more stuff for you guys, but
"He said to them, 'The harvest is abundant but the laborers are few; so ask the master of the harvest to send out laborers for his harvest."
~Luke 10:2

I mean seriously, my cd has been 100% done recording since May, and there is no way for me to release it because there is no funding, besides the very small revenue that t-shirts and cd's bring in. We need Catholics that believe in this ministry, and that can afford it to seriously pray about whether they are called to help fund these projects. We all want the same thing, but if it's to be done right and if it's to be done with the quality that is needed in order for our message to be heard, we need more donations and funding. And as The Apologist said in his appearance with Spirit Juice, there simply isn't enough support right now.
This was not meant to come across in a negative way, nor was it a blast against non-donaters...I was simply trying to make the point that there needs to be funding from somewhere, and I feel like there are a lot of Catholics and Catholic organizations out there that could help. Alright I'm done haha[/quote]

and this is why at times i don't really think the free music idea is gonna work in the long run. i know of several artists/bands that don't put themselves in a market. some of them may legitimately believe that God does not want them to charge for their work, or only give for donations, but when we leave ourselves marketless, then were never gonna pull outta the state we're in right now where it is often difficult to get musicians, producers, gigs, etc. i think it would help if we could get more of a universal commitment from catholic artists to give some market value to their work and ideas, especially from the one's that may be smaller but intend to become nationally known. The ones that give their stuff away may look good to all of us, but what looks better in the eyes of the philanthropists out there who don't sincerly believe catholic music will work out for the masses or worse yet the bigshot producers out there that don't believe catholic music even really exists for the masses? alot of us need professional help (some more than others ) so we need to make it look like we're ready for it, and try to build up our market, not just our collection of music and songs and artists.

The salvation of souls seems to be the underlying reason for Catholic music, and I think most if not all catholic bands and artists are doing a good job of this. However, the future of Catholic music should be promising, and not just sanctifying.

Edited July 10, 2007 by Didymus

[abercius24]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1323354' date='Jul 10 2007, 06:38 PM']and this is why at times i don't really think the free music idea is gonna work in the long run. i know of several artists/bands that don't put themselves in a market. some of them may legitimately believe that God does not want them to charge for their work, or only give for donations, but when we leave ourselves marketless, then were never gonna pull outta the state we're in right now where it is often difficult to get musicians, producers, gigs, etc. i think it would help if we could get more of a universal commitment from catholic artists to give some market value to their work and ideas, especially from the one's that may be smaller but intend to become nationally known. The ones that give their stuff away may look good to all of us, but what looks better in the eyes of the philanthropists out there who don't sincerly believe catholic music will work out for the masses or worse yet the bigshot producers out there that don't believe catholic music even really exists for the masses? alot of us need professional help (some more than others ) so we need to make it look like we're ready for it, and try to build up our market, not just our collection of music and songs and artists.

The salvation of souls seems to be the underlying reason for Catholic music, and I think most if not all catholic bands and artists are doing a good job of this. However, the future of Catholic music should be promising, and not just sanctifying.[/quote]

You make some excellent points. I fully agree. I have found that the respect one gets from a paid gig is completely different from a free gig. At the free gig, you're sometimes treated like the guys who will be washing the dishes later. At a paid gig, they have to see you as worth the money, and worth that much respect, too. You'd think it would be the other way around, strange as it is,. But I guess that's just how people tick. And the respect is necessary; not for one's ego -- which everybody has got to be very careful about -- but because you respresent a worthy movement and a solid group of people who are behind that movement. You gain that respect and you build credibility for all Catholic artists, and in turn, open doors for more people to contribute their support.

[abercius24]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1323044' date='Jul 10 2007, 03:44 PM']ya i agree......protest rallies would be a great venue.......we just need to get into places where there will be a secular artist and then we have to come with talent that is just as equal to the secular talent that is also performing.[/quote]

Do they still have "Rap Wars" in some of the big cities, kind of like what you see in "8 Mile" with Eminem? That would be an interesting place to see a Catholic rapper go up against secular artists. And the confrontation would be expected there.

[the Apologist]

[quote name='abercius24' post='1323836' date='Jul 10 2007, 10:22 PM']You make some excellent points. I fully agree. I have found that the respect one gets from a paid gig is completely different from a free gig. At the free gig, you're sometimes treated like the guys who will be washing the dishes later. At a paid gig, they have to see you as worth the money, and worth that much respect, too. You'd think it would be the other way around, strange as it is,. But I guess that's just how people tick. And the respect is necessary; not for one's ego -- which everybody has got to be very careful about -- but because you respresent a worthy movement and a solid group of people who are behind that movement. You gain that respect and you build credibility for all Catholic artists, and in turn, open doors for more people to contribute their support.[/quote]


Ok... in the beginning as one of the harbingers of this thing we call Catholic hip hop i was selling my album... and i sold a lot. However, when it came time for doing concerts and such, there were a lot of negative people in the Church who did not believe that rap was a "holy" thing. I was told many times that it was evil and sinful that i even went to confession for the first album i did out of guilt feelings that i was given. Catholic Record companies would not touch me with a ten foot pole... Also, Catholic bookstores are not common places to go to purchase "Catholic Hip Hop". We have to create that practice. But the biggest problem i see is that there are many Church elders and leaders that still don't agree that it is a tool that can be used for the salvation of souls... to spread the Kingdom... (i was even kicked off a live show on EWTN!)

So all this makes it very difficult to get our music out... If we made music videos, where would we play them? What radio stations would play us if the Catholic Record companies don't want us? So all our hard work in making good songs then seems to go to waste... so we rely on all types of methods to get the word out... that is why some give the cd's away for free...

But before we fix these problems i think there needs to be more support on the level of the Catholic youth... there does not seem to be the conviction to support Catholic rappers as there is in the Protestant Christian music... There are some here that show support, but the majority do not. You see, i don't think it is a question of how good the artist is, nor do i ask people to give money to support. What i mean is a simple email or a post saying "Hey good job on that song! or May God bless you for doing that song!" When an artist sees or reads positive feedback from people on his work that can inspire him to continue... that let's him know that his songs are being heard... But when there is little or no feedback then that does not inspire the person to continue... i mean lets face it, it is very hard being a Catholic rap or rock artist because we basically have to do everything at this point and try to appear like those who have whole teams of people working with them... so a least what other Catholics can do, whether they like the songs or not is to take the time to say "Thank you for trying, may God bless you!" That would make it a lot easier to continue forward... that is just my opinion...

Oh and by the way, a friend of mine posted on a Protestant rap website a link to my website (www.catholic-rap.com) to help promote my songs... and 2 days later they deleted it... It looks like most Protestants do not tolerate any other promotion of other artists (meaning Catholics or other denominations) on their web site... now i am not saying that we ought to do the same here in Phatmass as that seems unfair, but it is interesting to see the loyalty they have in promoting ONLY their artists... i think loyalty and support are what is lacking for many Catholic artists... (and i was a member of CAM also)

Edited July 11, 2007 by the Apologist

[the Apologist]

Read this... this is a quote from an article i saw online... this is the link to the entire article [url="http://66.218.69.11/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=Catholic+rap+arstists&fr=yfp-t-471&u=findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1141/is_n7_v34/ai_20100513&w=catholic+rap+arstists+artists&d=fEXYe-rnO8ZT&icp=1&.intl=us"]http://66.218.69.11/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&...=1&.intl=us[/url]

But i have pasted the apart i wanted to bring up here:


"So, how much evangelizing is going on here, and how much of this is just standard commercial music and concert-going behavior under a thin Christian veneer? "It's a mix, of course," said Bruce Deaton, a Catholic musician and dramatist who performed at the conference. "But we believe the kids respond to the message as well as the music."

Despite the warm embrace of these Christian artists from the crowd, one irony is that none of the featured acts on the Friday lineup was Catholic. In part, that's because no Catholic music group has yet achieved the prominence of bands whose background is Protestant and usually evangelical.

"There has not been a Catholic wave [of musical success]," Deaton said. Deaton appears on the new album "Come and See," featuring tracks from five American Catholic artists who performed at the Paris World Youth Day celebration.

"If I would try and visualize it for you, the Catholic wave is somewhere out in the Pacific, forming, and we have not seen it roll toward shore," Deaton said. "Whereas the Protestant evangelical wave has crested and is pounding on the shore. To a certain extent, those of us who are Catholic artists have to ride that tide."

Deaton said that Catholic artists have few marketing or distribution networks, and hence have to piggyback to some extent on the success of Protestant acts. "Catholic artists don't have a central booking agent like William Morris, as the Christian artists do," he said. "Right now, Catholics have to go into Christian bookstores if they want music by Catholic artists ... and often they don't find it."

[the Apologist]

here is another link that addresses this issue:

[url="http://www.catholic-forum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=59627"]http://www.catholic-forum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=59627[/url]

[abercius24]

[quote name='the Apologist' post='1324090' date='Jul 11 2007, 01:25 AM']here is another link that addresses this issue:

[url="http://www.catholic-forum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=59627"]http://www.catholic-forum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=59627[/url][/quote]

Very interesting posts on that other forum. Two things struck me the most:

1. Is there a generation gap that is more extended in the Catholic Church than that of Protestant Churches; and could that be the reason Catholic leadership has not yet fully supported Contemporary Catholic musicians?

I think this question is definitely on to something. In the last 10 years, the greatest growth in Protestant circles has been in Fundamentalist/Evangelical camps. Since these camps are fairly young, it makes sense that their generation gap would be substantially lessened. On the Catholic side, though, we stick to and support our priests until they retire, which would subsequently extend the generation gap for us. I would suspect the Lutherans, Methodists and Episcopalians are in the same situation as we are. Come to think of it, I know a guy in a Calvinist punk band who says they haven't been able to get any support from their church. I have seen that the generation gap is lessening for us now, with so many younger priests entering the church. Perhaps all our work within the last 10 years has been building a momentum that will soon be released? Maybe it will take off with the next generation who will be springboarded by the work we do today? Definitely something to consider.

2. Does the internet appear to be the one medium we may be able to leverage our marketing?

Well?

[Didymus]

[quote name='Deaton']I do see a day when a Bruce Deaton or a David Kaufman or a Steve Angrisano would be a natural choice for someone if they were going to go into a store and pick up music either for themselves or their children.[/quote]

sorry, but i do not see that day. it's gotta come from a different direction. I haven't heard much Deaton or Kaufman, but if their work is anything like Angrisano, then they'll never make it into mainstream, because they're coming at it from the wrong angle. They're not trying to get into the mass culture, but trying to remain in the Christian easy listening world. It's nothing against Angrisano, he's very good at what he does. It's just that from a musical aspect what he does is not what's bought into by the culture today, especially youth. He does a great job leading music for a Steubenville youth conference, but how many of those kids would honestly want to buy his albums and bring them home to show them off to their non-Catholic or even non-Christian friends?

[Guest]

[quote name='the Apologist' post='1324073' date='Jul 10 2007, 11:54 PM']Ok... in the beginning as one of the harbingers of this thing we call Catholic hip hop i was selling my album... and i sold a lot. However, when it came time for doing concerts and such, there were a lot of negative people in the Church who did not believe that rap was a "holy" thing. I was told many times that it was evil and sinful that i even went to confession for the first album i did out of guilt feelings that i was given. Catholic Record companies would not touch me with a ten foot pole... Also, Catholic bookstores are not common places to go to purchase "Catholic Hip Hop". We have to create that practice. But the biggest problem i see is that there are many Church elders and leaders that still don't agree that it is a tool that can be used for the salvation of souls... to spread the Kingdom... (i was even kicked off a live show on EWTN!)[/quote]


that makes me sick to my stomach dude....for real...that leaves a real bad taste in my mouth for the people who told you that.....its a joke.......and why were you kicked off of ewtn ??? thats messed up........

Edited July 11, 2007 by Guest

[abercius24]

[quote name='the Apologist' post='1324073' date='Jul 11 2007, 12:54 AM']Ok... in the beginning as one of the harbingers of this thing we call Catholic hip hop i was selling my album... and i sold a lot. However, when it came time for doing concerts and such, there were a lot of negative people in the Church who did not believe that rap was a "holy" thing. I was told many times that it was evil and sinful that i even went to confession for the first album i did out of guilt feelings that i was given. Catholic Record companies would not touch me with a ten foot pole... Also, Catholic bookstores are not common places to go to purchase "Catholic Hip Hop". We have to create that practice. But the biggest problem i see is that there are many Church elders and leaders that still don't agree that it is a tool that can be used for the salvation of souls... to spread the Kingdom... (i was even kicked off a live show on EWTN!)[/quote]

I agree with Delivery Boy, that's a low thing to say to a guy who is trying to preach the gospel in a unique and personal way.

I have asked some more traditional folk why they do not support Catholic Rap. They've told me that the attitude of the rapper is not appropriate, somewhat prideful and arrogant; that it isn't an attitude Christ would have. They also state that rappers usually preach with too much negativity. I explained to them that Rap is a confrontational form of art that would be similar to Christ's more challenging sermons, particularly similar to the words He spoke as He overturned the tables of the moneychangers. In retrospect, it seems that these folks were simply uncomfortable with the whole concept of confrontation. In all honesty, though, I have heard a bit too much negativity from some rappers, particularly considering that they didn't have much positivity to balance it all out. I think that may be part of the creative process, though. I have heard some rather inspiring flows from others, too. Maybe the positive is what should be more prominently marketed?

Edited July 12, 2007 by abercius24

[abercius24]

Promote the vote!

[Didymus]

[quote name='abercius24' post='1325322' date='Jul 12 2007, 01:20 AM']I agree with Delivery Boy, that's a low thing to say to a guy who is trying to preach the gospel in a unique and personal way.

I have asked some more traditional folk why they do not support Catholic Rap. They've told me that the attitude of the rapper is not appropriate, somewhat prideful and arrogant; that it isn't an attitude Christ would have. They also state that rappers usually preach with too much negativity. I explained to them that Rap is a confrontational form of art that would be similar to Christ's more challenging sermons, particularly similar to the words He spoke as He overturned the tables of the moneychangers. In retrospect, it seems that these folks were simply uncomfortable with the whole concept of confrontation. In all honesty, though, I have heard a bit too much negativity from some rappers, particularly considering that they didn't have much positivity to balance it all out. I think that may be part of the creative process, though. I have heard some rather inspiring flows from others, too. Maybe the positive is what should be more prominently marketed?[/quote]


Yeah, even the Good Shepherd layed down the law outside the temple when they were disrespectin the Lord's house...

[Guest]

i feel ya abercius24, like this one.....

LUKE 14:26-27,33: "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.