Charismatic Movement

[brendan1104]

Actually, you know what LouisvilleFan, it's not SSPX. It's a picture of the Sacred Liturgy in the now-closed Holy Trinity Church in Boston.

And you would've seen the same look all over, for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. The Neo-Catechumenate and charismatics would've been thrown out... and worse.


[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1349804' date='Aug 4 2007, 05:48 PM']What about before Christians had buildings and were allowed to worship in public with beautiful altars and everything? I doubt St. Peter ever celebrate the Eucharist in a place like that. Catholicism looks like a lot of different things, including both of the above examples. That's the great thing about being Catholic. As long as what you're doing isn't conflicting with Church doctrine or causing scandal, you should be free to do it. Heck, for all we know the folks in the first picture could be SSPX or some other schismatic group.

Because we are sinners, everything good in this world will be abused. You know, I've heard Protestant arguments against the Real Presence of Christ state that God obviously wouldn't allow such a thing as transubstantiation to take place because it opens the door to so many abuses against his own Flesh and Blood. But if we went with that argument, we'd have to toss out the Bible too... it's abused all the time, quoted out of context, used for personal gain, etc. So instead of tossing the baby out with the bathwater, the solution is to keep all that is good and solve abuses through correct teaching.[/quote]

[Moneybags]

Of course, let's attack the SSPX but leave the Charistmatics alone!!! One of the two looks Catholic, looks holy, and looks reverent. The other - Charismatics - do not.

I'd support and join the SSPX in a second over a charismatic group.

Note: Top image is of Holy Trinity German Church from Boston.

Edited August 4, 2007 by St. Benedict

[Maggyie]

I think sometimes there can be an over-emphasis on receiving the visible gifts like tongues, being slain in the Spirit, etc. etc. At the same time I have known many sincere Catholics who were a part of the charismatic movement and who understood the non-necessity of such gifts. The Catholic Charismatic Renewal has produced many vocations and has brought many Catholics to a closer relationship with Jesus.

I have a lot of the skeptic in me. For instance, I don't understand how speaking in undecipherable tongues builds up the Church. The common explanation is that the person so gifted is simply praising God with the language of angels, etc. But aren't English or Latin or Chinese good enough to praise God in? And it makes God seem sort of like a petty tyrant or an ego-centric puppeteer, putting words of praise in His subject's mouth. I heard someplace (Steubenville?) of people who were being trained to "interpret" tongues. How exactly could that work? I'm assuming they are not linguists or something - I imagine they're trying to do it "through the Spirit," based on whatever inspirations come to them. How do you make sure they're not just making up an interpretation on the spot? And what if they're just wrong? Any quality control available, hmm? It seems like territory where there could be a lot of abuse.

At the same time we have to realize that just because one spirituality causes problems for us, it can really be helpful for other people. No one is required to believe that so-in-so really has powers of prophecy or what-have-you, but we should be respectful of the spiritual choices that other people make. The Charismatic Renewal is very much approved by the Vatican.

Edited August 5, 2007 by Maggie

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1349005' date='Aug 3 2007, 07:18 PM']Personally, I'm very anti-Charismatic.

[url="http://charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com/"]http://charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com/[/url][/quote]

agreeance

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='brendan1104' post='1349806' date='Aug 4 2007, 08:52 PM']Actually, you know what LouisvilleFan, it's not SSPX. It's a picture of the Sacred Liturgy in the now-closed Holy Trinity Church in Boston.

And you would've seen the same look all over, for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. The Neo-Catechumenate and charismatics would've been thrown out... and worse. [/quote]

While being welcomed at St. Peter's in Rome? Interesting.

I wasn't saying the first picture was an SSPX Mass. The point is that just because something looks Catholic doesn't mean it is, and the vice versa applies too. What if I took a picture of a group of Catholics at Bible study. Are they not Catholic because they look like Baptists?

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1349808' date='Aug 4 2007, 08:53 PM']I'd support and join the SSPX in a second over a charismatic group.[/quote]

Can we put a pricetag on our obedience to the Pope? As St. Ignatius of Antioch said, we are supposed "obey the bishop as Jesus Christ". Why would you want to join a schismatic group over a movement existing within the Church? It's not like anyone is expected to become Charismatic anyway... you can avoid it entirely for all I care, but they are Catholic while the SSPX is not.

Edited August 5, 2007 by LouisvilleFan

[Moneybags]

The SSPX is not schismatic. They are Catholic.

[XIX]

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1349808' date='Aug 4 2007, 06:53 PM']Of course, let's attack the SSPX but leave the Charistmatics alone!!! One of the two looks Catholic, looks holy, and looks reverent. The other - Charismatics - do not.

I'd support and join the SSPX in a second over a charismatic group.

Note: Top image is of Holy Trinity German Church from Boston.[/quote]
Excommunication = bad
Full Communion = good

Please get off of your "Poor lod persecuted me" high horse.

Edited August 5, 2007 by XIX

[XIX]

[quote]"APOSTOLIC LETTER OF JOHN PAUL II

1. With great affliction the Church has learned of the unlawful episcopal ordination conferred on 30 June last (1988 - Ed. note) by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, which has frustrated all the efforts made during the previous years to ensure the full communion with the Church of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Pius X founded by the same Mons. Lefebvre. These efforts, especially intense during recent months, in which the Apostolic See has shown comprehension to the limits of the possible, were all to no avail (1).

2. This affliction was particularly felt by the Successor of Peter to whom in the first place pertains the guardianship of the unity of the Church (2), even though the number of persons directly involved in these events might be few, since every person is loved by God on his own account and has been redeemed by the blood of Christ shed on the Cross for the salvation of all.

The particular circumstances, both objective and subjective in which Archbishop Lefebvre acted, provide everyone with an occasion for profound reflection and for a renewed pledge of fidelity to Christ and to His Church.

[b]3. In itself, this act was one of disobedience to the Roman Pontiff in a very grave matter and of supreme importance for the unity of the Church, such as is the ordination of bishops whereby the apostolic succession is sacramentally perpetuated. Hence such disobedience -- which implies in practice the rejection of the Roman primacy -- constitutes a schismatic act (3). In performing such an act, notwithstanding the formal canonical warning sent to them by the Cardinal Prefect of the Congregation for Bishops on 17 June last, Mons. [u]Lefebvre and the priests Bernard Fellay, Bernard Tisser de Mallerais, Richard Williamson, and Alfonso de Galarreta, have incurred the grave penalty of excommunication envisaged ecclby esiastical law (4).[/b][/u]

4. The root of this schismatic act can be discerned in an incomplete and contradictory notion of Tradition. Incomplete, because it does not take sufficiently into account the living character of Tradition, which, as the Second Vatican Council clearly taught, "comes from the apostles and progresses in the Church with the help of the Holy Spirit. There is a growth in insight into the realities and words that are being passed on. This comes about in various ways. It comes through the contemplation and study of believers who ponder these things in their hearts. It comes from the intimate sense of spiritual realities which they experience. And it comes from the preaching of those who have received, along with their right of succession in the episcopate, the sure charism of truth" (5).

But especially contradictory is a notion of Tradition which opposes the universal Magesterium of the Church possessed by the Bishops of Rome and the Body of Bishops. It is impossible to remain faithful to Tradition while breaking the ecclesial bond with him to whom, in the person of the Apostle Peter, Christ Himself entrusted the ministry of unity in His Church (6).

5. Faced with the situation that has arisen, I deem it my duty to inform all the Catholic faithful of some aspects which this sad event has highlighted.

a) The outcome of the movement promoted by Mons. Lefebvre can and must be, for all the Catholic faithful, a motive for sincere reflection concerning their own fidelity to the Church's Tradition, authentically interpreted by the ecclesiastical Magisterium, ordinary and extraordinary, especially in the Ecumenical Councils from Nicaea to Vatican II. From this reflection all should draw a renewed and efficacious conviction of the necessity of strengthening still more their fidelity by rejecting erroneous interpretations and arbitrary and unauthorized application of doctrine, liturgy, and discipline.

To the bishops especially it pertains, by reason of their pastoral mission, to exercise the important duty of a clearsighted vigilance full of charity and firmness, so that this fidelity may be everywhere safeguarded (7).

However, it is necessary that all the Pastors and other faithful have a new awareness, not only of the lawfulness but also the richness for the Church of a diversity of charisms, traditions of spirtuality and apostolate, which also constitutes the beauty of unity in variety; of that blended "harmony" which the earthly Church raises up to Heaven under the impulse of the Holy Spirit.

b) Moreover, I should like to remind theologians and other experts in the ecclesiastical sciences that they should feel called upon to answer in the present circumstances. Indeed, the extent and depth of the teaching of the Second Vatican Council call for a renewed commitment to deeper study in order to reveal clearly the Council's continuity with Tradition, especially in points of doctrine which, perhaps because they are new, have not yet been well understood by some sections of the Church.

c) In the present circumstances I wish especially to make an appeal both solemn and heartfelt, paternal and fraternal, to all those who until now have been linked in various ways to the movement of Archbishop Lefebvre, that they may fulfill the grave duty of remaining united to the Vicar of Christ in the unity of the Catholic Church, and of ceasing their support in any way for that movement. Everyone should be aware that formal adherence to the schism is a grave offence against God and carries the penalty of excommunication decreed by the Church's law (8).

To all those Catholic faithful who feel attached to some previous liturgical and disciplinary forms of the Latin tradition, I wish to manifest my will to facilitate their ecclesial communion by means of the necessary measures to guarantee respect for their aspirations. In this matter I ask for the support of the bishops and of all those engaged in the pastoral ministry in the Church.

6. Taking account of the importance and complexity of the problems referred to in this document, by virtue of my Apostolic Authority I decree the following:

a) a Commission is instituted whose task it will be to collaborate with the bishops, with the Departments of the Roman Curia and with the circles concerned, for the purpose of facilitating full ecclesial communion of priests, seminarians, religious communities, or individuals until now linked in various ways to the Fraternity founded by Mons. Lefebvre, who may wish to remain united to the Successor of Peter in the Catholic Church while preserving their spiritual and liturgical traditions, in light of the Protocol signed on 5 May last (1988) by Cardinal Ratzinger and Mons. Lefebvre;

b) this Commission is composed of a Cardinal President and other members of the Roman Curia, in a number that will be deemed opportune according to circumstances;

c) moreover, respect must everywhere be shown for the feelings of all those who are attached to the Latin liturgical tradition, by a wide and generous application of the directives already issued some time ago by the Apostolic See, for the use of the Roman Missal according to the typical edition of 1962 (9).

7. As this year specially dedicated to the Blessed Virgin is now drawing to a close, I wish to exhort all to join in the unceasing prayer which the Vicar of Christ, through the intercession of the Mother of the Church, addresses to the Father in the very words of the Son: "That they all may be one!"

Given at Rome, at St. Peter's, 2 July 1988, the tenth year of the pontificate.

NOTES

1) Cf. "Informatory Note" of 16 June, 1988: L'Osservatore Romano, English edition, 27 June 1988, pp. 1-2.

2) Cf. Vatican Council I, Const. Pastor Aeternus, cap. 3: DS 3060.

3) Cf. Code of Canon Law, can. 751.

4) Cf. Code of Canon Law, can. 1382.

5) Cf. Vatican Council II, Const. Dei Verbum, n. 8. Cf. Vatican Council I, Const. Dei Filius, cap. 4: DS 3020.

6) Cf. Mt. 16:18; Lk. 10:16; Vatican Council I, Const. Pastor Aeternus, cap. 3:can Council I, Const. Dei Filius, cap. 4: DS 3020. 6) Cf. Mt. 16:18; Lk. 10:16; Vatican Council I, Const. Pastor Aeternus, cap. 3: DS 3060.

7) Cf. Code of Canon Law, can. 386; Paul VI, Apostl. Exhort. Quinque iam anni, 8 Dec. 1970: AAS 63 (1971), pp. 97-106.

8) Cf. Code of Canon Law, can. 1364.

9) Cf. Congregation for Divine Worship, Letter Quattuor abhinc annos, 3 Oct. 1984: AAS 76 (1984), pp. 1088-1089."[/quote]
Emphasis added.

[url="http://sspx.agenda.tripod.com/id25.html"]http://sspx.agenda.tripod.com/id25.html[/url]

[Theoketos]

You are right to question. Always Question.

[kateri05]

where did era's pope quotes affirming those movements go?

[Moneybags]

"By their fruits you shall know them"

The SSPX chapels are filled with reverence and holiness. The Charistmatic places are filled with dissent and heretical beliefs. Look at the Faith in both places - the SSPX has the Faith

[brendan1104]

St. Benedict I'm just curious, have you ever been to an SSPX chapel? I have, dozens of times. It seems that a lot of the most ardent defenders of SSPX haven't even been.

[mortify]

Not quite sure how the SSPX came up in this thread, but it's hard to say they're not Catholic when they're simply living Catholicism as it's always been lived. The excommunication if existent falls on the clergy of the SSPX, and not the faithful that attend those parishes. Though I'm not a member of the SSPX, having been explained the history of Archbishop Lefebvre in context his ordination of four bishops seemed to be more out of need to protect the faithful than an act of schism, but I'll let God and the Church decide that.

Now because certain Popes have spoken non-infallibly about the Charismatic movement, that doesn't mean the movement is really good and appropriate. My encounters with the Charismatic movement are limited to "healing masses," and deliverance prayers in "tongues," and it has left me with very odd feelings. Although there are references to "tongues" in the New Testament, there is a reason why the Holy Spirit did not retain these practices in the Liturgy, and there is a reason why Protestants turned to such practices, and unfortunately, there are reasons why Catholics adopted them. We should however consider what Pope Pius XII said in Mediator Dei,

==QUOTE==
[color="#0000FF"]61. The same reasoning holds in the case of some persons who are bent on the restoration of all the ancient rites and ceremonies indiscriminately. The liturgy of the early ages is most certainly worthy of all veneration. But ancient usage must not be esteemed more suitable and proper, either in its own right or in its significance for later times and new situations, on the simple ground that it carries the savor and aroma of antiquity. The more recent liturgical rites likewise deserve reverence and respect. They, too, owe their inspiration to the Holy Spirit, who assists the Church in every age even to the consummation of the world.[52] They are equally the resources used by the majestic Spouse of Jesus Christ to promote and procure the sanctity of man[color="#FF0000"].[Understand that the Pope is referring to the Tridentine Rite since the novus ordo was not yet in existence] [/color]

62. Assuredly it is a wise and most laudable thing to return in spirit and affection to the sources of the sacred liturgy. For research in this field of study, by tracing it back to its origins, contributes valuable assistance towards a more thorough and careful investigation of the significance of feast-days, and of the meaning of the texts and sacred ceremonies employed on their occasion. [b]But it is neither wise nor laudable to reduce everything to antiquity by every possible device. Thus, to cite some instances, one would be straying from the straight path were he to wish the altar restored to its primitive tableform;[/b] were he to want black excluded as a color for the liturgical vestments; were he to forbid the use of sacred images and statues in Churches; were he to order the crucifix so designed that the divine Redeemer's body shows no trace of His cruel sufferings; and lastly were he to disdain and reject polyphonic music or singing in parts, even where it conforms to regulations issued by the Holy See.

63. Clearly no sincere Catholic can refuse to accept the formulation of Christian doctrine more recently elaborated and proclaimed as dogmas by the Church, under the inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit with abundant fruit for souls, because it pleases him to hark back to the old formulas. No more can any Catholic in his right senses [b]repudiate existing legislation of the Church to revert to prescriptions based on the earliest sources of canon law. Just as obviously unwise and mistaken is the zeal of one who in matters liturgical would go back to the rites and usage of antiquity, discarding the new patterns [color="#FF0000"][Again, referring to the Tridentine rite] [/color]introduced by disposition of divine Providence to meet the changes of circumstances and situation.[/b]

64. This way of acting bids fair to revive the exaggerated and senseless antiquarianism to which the illegal Council of Pistoia gave rise. It likewise attempts to reinstate a series of errors which were responsible for the calling of that meeting as well as for those resulting from it, with grievous harm to souls, and which the Church, the ever watchful guardian of the "deposit of faith" committed to her charge by her divine Founder, had every right and reason to condemn.[53] [b]For perverse designs and ventures of this sort tend to paralyze and weaken that process of sanctification by which the sacred liturgy directs the sons of adoption to their Heavenly Father of their souls' salvation.[/b][/color]
==ENDQUOTE==


I'm a bit less tolerant of diversity and don't see the inherent good in it. I believe there is a proper and time tested way to perform the mass and it is more than enough to satisfy me spiritually.

Edited August 5, 2007 by mortify

[Lioness For Christ]

SSPX is heritcal... It is a grave mistake to break off from the true Church, to not regard the Pope as Peter's successor... BUT I do hope and pray they'll come back!

[brendan1104]

Lioness, you are mistaking heresy for schism. These are distinct terms.

[brendan1104]

Anyway, back on topic. As I said before, we've already and discussed and debated this topic though.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='mortify' post='1350032' date='Aug 4 2007, 11:35 PM']Not quite sure how the SSPX came up in this thread, but it's hard to say they're not Catholic when they're simply living Catholicism as it's always been lived. The excommunication if existent falls on the clergy of the SSPX, and not the faithful that attend those parishes. Though I'm not a member of the SSPX, having been explained the history of Archbishop Lefebvre in context his ordination of four bishops seemed to be more out of need to protect the faithful than an act of schism, but I'll let God and the Church decide that.

Now because certain Popes have spoken non-infallibly about the Charismatic movement, that doesn't mean the movement is really good and appropriate. My encounters with the Charismatic movement are limited to "healing masses," and deliverance prayers in "tongues," and it has left me with very odd feelings. Although there are references to "tongues" in the New Testament, there is a reason why the Holy Spirit did not retain these practices in the Liturgy, and there is a reason why Protestants turned to such practices, and unfortunately, there are reasons why Catholics adopted them. We should however consider what Pope Pius XII said in Mediator Dei,

==QUOTE==
[color="#0000FF"]61. The same reasoning holds in the case of some persons who are bent on the restoration of all the ancient rites and ceremonies indiscriminately. The liturgy of the early ages is most certainly worthy of all veneration. But ancient usage must not be esteemed more suitable and proper, either in its own right or in its significance for later times and new situations, on the simple ground that it carries the savor and aroma of antiquity. The more recent liturgical rites likewise deserve reverence and respect. They, too, owe their inspiration to the Holy Spirit, who assists the Church in every age even to the consummation of the world.[52] They are equally the resources used by the majestic Spouse of Jesus Christ to promote and procure the sanctity of man[color="#FF0000"].[Understand that the Pope is referring to the Tridentine Rite since the novus ordo was not yet in existence] [/color]

62. Assuredly it is a wise and most laudable thing to return in spirit and affection to the sources of the sacred liturgy. For research in this field of study, by tracing it back to its origins, contributes valuable assistance towards a more thorough and careful investigation of the significance of feast-days, and of the meaning of the texts and sacred ceremonies employed on their occasion. [b]But it is neither wise nor laudable to reduce everything to antiquity by every possible device. Thus, to cite some instances, one would be straying from the straight path were he to wish the altar restored to its primitive tableform;[/b] were he to want black excluded as a color for the liturgical vestments; were he to forbid the use of sacred images and statues in Churches; were he to order the crucifix so designed that the divine Redeemer's body shows no trace of His cruel sufferings; and lastly were he to disdain and reject polyphonic music or singing in parts, even where it conforms to regulations issued by the Holy See.

63. Clearly no sincere Catholic can refuse to accept the formulation of Christian doctrine more recently elaborated and proclaimed as dogmas by the Church, under the inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit with abundant fruit for souls, because it pleases him to hark back to the old formulas. No more can any Catholic in his right senses [b]repudiate existing legislation of the Church to revert to prescriptions based on the earliest sources of canon law. Just as obviously unwise and mistaken is the zeal of one who in matters liturgical would go back to the rites and usage of antiquity, discarding the new patterns [color="#FF0000"][Again, referring to the Tridentine rite] [/color]introduced by disposition of divine Providence to meet the changes of circumstances and situation.[/b]

64. This way of acting bids fair to revive the exaggerated and senseless antiquarianism to which the illegal Council of Pistoia gave rise. It likewise attempts to reinstate a series of errors which were responsible for the calling of that meeting as well as for those resulting from it, with grievous harm to souls, and which the Church, the ever watchful guardian of the "deposit of faith" committed to her charge by her divine Founder, had every right and reason to condemn.[53] [b]For perverse designs and ventures of this sort tend to paralyze and weaken that process of sanctification by which the sacred liturgy directs the sons of adoption to their Heavenly Father of their souls' salvation.[/b][/color]
==ENDQUOTE==
I'm a bit less tolerant of diversity and don't see the inherent good in it. I believe there is a proper and time tested way to perform the mass and it is more than enough to satisfy me spiritually.[/quote]


Very nice. One can't wish to bring the Church up to speed with the times, because the Faith is not bound by time. One can't wish to take the Church to more ancient practice, because while laudable, the faith does develop and grow naturally, and oftentimes certain ancient practices could cause certain amounts of scandal due to extenuating circumstances. And once certainly can't wish to bring the church up to speed with times and also wish to go back to ancient ways of worship, because that is a conflict of interest.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1349979' date='Aug 4 2007, 10:22 PM']"By their fruits you shall know them"

The SSPX chapels are filled with reverence and holiness. The Charistmatic places are filled with dissent and heretical beliefs. Look at the Faith in both places - the SSPX has the Faith[/quote]

The Greek-Orthodox churches are filled with reverence and holiness too... but that doesn't make them cease to be heretics and schismatics.

Just a thought.

[Justin86]

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1349979' date='Aug 5 2007, 01:22 PM']"By their fruits you shall know them"

The SSPX chapels are filled with reverence and holiness. The Charistmatic places are filled with dissent and heretical beliefs. Look at the Faith in both places - the SSPX has the Faith[/quote]
Oh, so our private interpretations of Scripture override the Pope's now? Say, doesn't this make you a Protestant?

[VeniteAdoremus]

Give me a C, give me an H, give me an AR - I - TY...

Personal comments aren't going to help us come anywhere, I think.

The Magisterium allows us a great diversity, and therefore great freedom. So you can pick the charism that suits you. We're allowed to use our minds and hearts to do that, but we can not condemn an entire group based on our own feelings. The Vatican has decided that the Charismatics are in full communion and (while I like a lot of charismatics, but their services freak me out) that means they're in full communion. We can talk about whether we feel at home there, and why or why not, but not whether they're in communion or not. That would be like talking about whether a cloudless sky at noon is blue.

The same goes for the SSPX. I'm glad that the Tridentine rite is fully "available" again, because it may help them to come back to the Church. Currently, they're not in it, the Pope has said it (quite, quite clearly), so while we can freely discuss what we think of their philosophies and practices (I think some of them are scary and some of them are awesome), we can't put up a vote whether they're ROMAN Catholic or not.