Charismatic Movement

[Ora et Labora]

[quote name='tvu_srfan' post='1351645' date='Aug 6 2007, 10:29 PM']My dad says that a lot. His sayings kinda rub off on me. [/quote]

It rubbed off on me...here!

I still think the Charismatic movement is good...and I think it has a big thing to do with who you are!! Some people just aren't (period!) good with raising hands, and holding hands and rocking...and I'm one of them. I think..and I might be wrong...but it seems to me Charismatic prayer isn't as powerful as reverent prayer. I mean...in the long run. If one is praying while waving arms ect. thats all well and good, but, if there isn't the grace of God...and if one isn't comfortable with silent prayer (silence...such an important part of our Faith) then it seems to me something important is missing. If one isn't comfortable with silence...without the music, and the rocking, and just silence...with GOD! Not with friends...then something isn't right.

Maybe I'm going off. Sorry!

Just some of my thoughts.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1351611' date='Aug 6 2007, 10:54 PM']Pretty much I want to say that even if the Charismatic movement is a good thing in itself (which although I have doubts about, I do not deny the possibility) it is not an end in itself.[/quote]

That's the error that the Charismatic Movement can easily fall into in the unstructured Pentecostal churches, some of which are so far into left field that they cease to be Christian (denial of the Trinity and such). However, within Catholic, Episcopal, or even Baptist churches, there is a pre-existing structure that defines the community's beliefs and the "ends" to which all should be striving, and that seems to push the energy of Charismatic gifts in the right direction. Even where there are some abuses or false teaching, at least they aren't coming from totally out of left field.

[Ora et Labora]

I agree that Charismatic groups have a hold...especially on young people, and gives them a good push into the faith...but, from what I've seen...it doesn't seem to be everlasting. They might help the person start, but they don't seem to help him finish.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='brendan1104' post='1351658' date='Aug 6 2007, 09:38 PM']Tongues back then was different than now - when the apostles spoke in tongues at Pentecost, it was in their own language, and the others could understand in theirs. Now it's just babbbling. Or quoting parts of prayers.[/quote]

Here's what the Haydock Commentary says for Acts 2:4

[quote name='Haydock's Catholic Bible Commentary for Acts 2:4']Ver. 4. Began to speak divers tongues. Perhaps the apostles spoke only their own tongue, and the miracle consisted in each one's understanding it as if they spoke it in his language. (St. Gregory of Nazianzus, orat. xliv.) --- But St. Augustine and most others, understand the text literally; though the apostles had not this gift on all occasions, nor on all subjects, and therefore sometimes stood in need of interpreters. See St. Augustine, in Psalm xvii.; Expos. 2.; and Serm. 188. --- The same Father observes, that the conversion of all nations to the Church, and their being united in one faith, all having one language or confession, is a perpetuation of the same miracle in the Church.[/quote]

Edited August 7, 2007 by StThomasMore

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Ora et Labora' post='1351659' date='Aug 6 2007, 11:38 PM']I still think the Charismatic movement is good...and I think it has a big thing to do with who you are!! Some people just aren't (period!) good with raising hands, and holding hands and rocking...and I'm one of them. I think..and I might be wrong...but it seems to me Charismatic prayer isn't as powerful as reverent prayer.
...
If one isn't comfortable with silence...without the music, and the rocking, and just silence...with GOD! Not with friends...then something isn't right.[/quote]

Charismatics aren't against those things I went to a Life in the Spirit teen retreat back in February and they had a great balance of praise & worship, hand raising, prayer in tongues, etc. along with an hour of silence and times for Adoration and a beautifully reverent Mass on Sunday (no Traditionalist would've known they were closing out a Charismatic retreat ).

So there is room for all of these things. You don't have to like them all, but we should at least recognize that everybody has different personalities and spiritualities, so we all want to express our worship of God in our own way. Obedience to the Catholic faith gives us the freedom to express ourselves without straying off the edge of a cliff.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Ora et Labora' post='1351666' date='Aug 6 2007, 11:42 PM']I agree that Charismatic groups have a hold...especially on young people, and gives them a good push into the faith...but, from what I've seen...it doesn't seem to be everlasting. They might help the person start, but they don't seem to help him finish.[/quote]

You can also say that about the Sacrament of Confirmation. Is there a problem with the sacrament?

It's the nature of young people to rebel, and in today's society that usually happens either in high school or college. How many church youth groups really succeed at keeping young people active in the faith through those years? I don't think many do, whether they're Charismatic or not. Maybe I'm too pessimistic, but that just seems to be how things are today.

[Ora et Labora]

Yes, that's why I said...everyone is different. I just personally don't feel comfortable with that. As long as it's valid, I'm cool.

But lets not get into the LT Mass...

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Ora et Labora' post='1350384' date='Aug 5 2007, 02:44 PM']I don't see anything wrong with charism. Um, I'm not a "clap your hands, hold each others hands and start waving you arms around during Mass" type of person...but hey! Outside of Mass...heck! I LOVE guitars and praises!! I just think there should be more reverence in Mass itself.

Earlier on, I would come onto PM to argue with Charismatics, but I have decided, it doesn't really help to take a strong side, but to just worry about my own soul, and to know what Vatican II teaches. I think us Catholics take sides way too much. But, that's just me.

Ones who love the TLM (like me) are trying to work for the Church, and even though Charism in Mass isn't my thing, I know many people who love it, and who are trying to help the Church as well! I decided to stop taking sides, and to stop arguing about it for nothing, unless others ask me about my personal opinion. [/quote]


[quote name='aalpha1989' post='1350542' date='Aug 5 2007, 06:32 PM']Now for my actual opinion regarding charismatics.

Of course they are members of the Catholic church *glares at certain members of the phorum*!

I believe that Charismatic praise is a legitimate form of worship [i]outside[/i] of the Mass. I pretty much agree with Ora.

I also believe that it is extremely easy to get carried away with the feelings involved in charismatic prayer and to begin to rely on them. It is easy to pray only when one feels like it or when one has an adrenaline rush. It is very important to keep the crucifix in sight and remember that prayer is essential even when it is hard to pray and when one doesnt feel like it. I believe much caution is called for when praying charismatically, but it is not evil or bad. It is quite the opposite. [/quote]

These two posts stood out for me, and I agree. My youth ministry is sorta into the charismatic thing: holding hands during the Our Father, playing praise and worship (during mass though, and outside) and a good friend of mine can do some spontaneous song writing in front of the tabernacle. I've heard stories from some Youth ministry members of going to adoration at some charismatic thing and people were weeping, laughing hysterically, falling over, and many other things. Personally, that sorta thing creeps me out a bit, though I've got a bit teary in some moments. One thing I really question is this "speaking in tongues". The apostles did so after Pentecost, but it was to communicate with others and spread the faith. But now, speaking in tongues seems "extra-biblical", meaning that it's not really described in the bible, with all this secret "babble" that only a few can understand. It doesn't seem to make sense to me. The Holy Spirit isn't Schizophrenic. But yeah, I don't see much problem with it, except I'm not a huggy, touchy feely, sway-y type of guy. It just turns into a stimulation thing, that will not propagate much when the dry season of prayer hits. Also, I prefer more traditional, reverent music in the mass. I'm not exactly asking to go back to Polyphony (though it would be nice), but to at least put aside the guitars and sing some music with harmonies. The voice can be great without instruments. I know not everyone can do this though, but there are people who can... so they should just sing the harmonies :

There is my Canadian two cents (btw, the dollar has gone up to .95 for us. Ergo, my babble is worth a little more this time).

Edited August 7, 2007 by Sacred Music Man

[Ora et Labora]

Ditto. One things for sure...the music could be a little better.

[Moneybags]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1351244' date='Aug 6 2007, 04:04 PM']Remember when you were reading [i]Open Letter to Confused Catholics[/i]? Maybe if you would have been reading authoritative magisterial documents and catechisms you faith would have been stronger...[/quote]

You insult me with "you[r] faith would have been stronger". Just because I am sympathic to the SSPX does not make me weak in Faith. On the contrary, Traditionalists know and follow the Faith - not modernism and liberalism which has entered much of the Church. Only look at the link below for some of the bad news.

[url="http://www.cathcon.blogspot.com/"]http://www.cathcon.blogspot.com/[/url]

The SSPX is part of the solution. I support them with prayers and donations.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1351799' date='Aug 6 2007, 11:07 PM']You insult me with "you[r] faith would have been stronger". Just because I am sympathic to the SSPX does not make me weak in Faith. On the contrary, Traditionalists know and follow the Faith - not modernism and liberalism which has entered much of the Church. Only look at the link below for some of the bad news.

[url="http://www.cathcon.blogspot.com/"]http://www.cathcon.blogspot.com/[/url]

The SSPX is part of the solution. I support them with prayers and donations.[/quote]

That was addressed to Sam (EENS) because he's lapsed... not to you... I don't think your faith is weak... but his is (he said so)... sorry if there was a misunderstanding.

And, BTW, I looked at my post. I had directed a comment to you after a quote from your post, then after a quote from Brendan's post, and then I directed a comment to Sam after Sam's post, which may have been confusing.

Edited August 7, 2007 by StThomasMore

[Slappo]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1351649' date='Aug 6 2007, 07:31 PM']Can you explain the difference between mediative and contemplative prayer? They sound very similar to me. I see you followed up with an explanation of contemplation, but I'm still not sure how it differs from meditation.[/quote]


Just FYI, sometimes it is still hard for me to see the vast differences between meditative and contemplative prayer and they do seem very similar, but let me assure you that meditative (also known as mental prayer) is no where near to the depth that contemplative prayer reaches. The first and most important difference is meditative prayer is something we can sit down and choose to do. If I want to practice some meditative prayer I can pull out my bible, look at a psalm, read the psalm, narrow it down to a specific verse or passage in the psalm and meditate on the Word of God, what He is saying to me in that scripture, how it calls me to greater conversion and love, and ask for the graces necessary to grow in the new depth of holiness I have felt called to. This is called Lectio Divina (it doesn't have to be a psalm, any scripture works). Contemplative prayer is something that can only be brought for by God's grace. It is not an active choosing to contemplate. Someone will not sit in a chapel and say "okay, now I'll contemplate for half an hour." I guess the easiest way to say it is meditative or mental prayer has a focus. The rosary is a mental prayer (also vocal due to the hail mary's etc) on the mysteries of the Gospel. You choose something to meditate on, and you meditate. Contemplative prayer is "a loving awarness of God..." - St. John of the Cross. Contemplation is infused, it is something that comes from God, mental prayer comes from both God and us. God brings light to scripture, or whatever else we may be meditating on, and we pray meditating, pondering the mysteries of God. Contemplation comes from God and we sit (or stand or whatever posture) knowing God, loving God, and being in communion with God. Contemplation is almost passive I guess. Saints were known to levitate, or go into ecstasy when in contemplation. Contemplation isn't something you can just stop either. St. Teresa talks about the struggle sometimes when entering into contemplation when one wants to be doing other things and how it took all of her energy to try not to enter into contemplation, and still sometimes she could not help it.

Really I truly reccomend picking up Fire Within. Thomas Dubay does an AMAZING job summarizing the teachings of the Carmelite saints. It truly takes a very holy person to begin contemplation. Contemplation starts at the 4th teresian mansion, and the Divine Union (complete union with Christ as much as one can while on earth) is mansion 7. By the 5th and 6th mansions men and women are levitating, going into ecstasy, experiencing the Dark Night of the Senses (not 100% sure how to describe) and then the Dark Night of the Spirit (pure long drawn out painful spiritual dryness). Meditation is the closest prayer that we can choose to enter into before contemplation, which is why the saints reccomend practicing meditation to prepare ourselves to enter into contemplation.

Hope this helps some! Sorry I can't be more helpful! Please if anyone else knows about the Church's teaching on contemplative prayer feel free to add!

God bless,
Marcus

[Ora et Labora]

thanks Slappo, for your post!! I was wondering the same thing...but didn't feel I needed to say anything since he already asked.

Personally, I'm not big on meditative prayer. It sounds like a great thing! But, I like to be specific with my prayers...I don't know if that's a bad thing. When I go to Adoration, I kneel for a few minutes in silence, then say the Divine Mercy Chaplet, then sit down and do some school (I have 5 siblings and bringing my school to Adoration is helpful, since it's so quiet and peaceful.) Then I pray a few prayers from my One Hour book with Jesus including that litany that begins with "Blessed be God, Blessed be His Holy Name..." I forgot the name of it...? Then I do some spiritual reading.

Lately I've been getting my bible out and reading something specific, and if I like the passage, I copy it down in my journal, or I highlight it. I don't think that's meditative prayer...? But, that's what I do. That's the kind of praying I like to do if I'm by myself.

Edited August 7, 2007 by Ora et Labora

[tvu_srfan]

[quote name='Ora et Labora' post='1351919' date='Aug 7 2007, 10:15 AM']Then I pray a few prayers from my One Hour book with Jesus including that litany that begins with "Blessed be God, Blessed be His Holy Name..." I forgot the name of it...?[/quote]
Divine Praises

[Ora et Labora]

Thank you! Edited August 7, 2007 by Ora et Labora