Charismatic Movement

[scardella]

[quote name='Ora et Labora' post='1353112' date='Aug 8 2007, 06:59 PM']But, maybe I'm not talking about the same kind of charismatic movement? If you're saying that one has to go to Charismatic meetings, seminars or be in a charismatic group, listen to up-beat music, and wave your hands around to receive the abocv ^^...if that's what you're saying, I disagree. That is rubbish!! The Charismatic movement hasn't been around for very long, and many (most) Saints didn't need to do what I just stated to be led by the Holy Spirit. One has to be JOYFUL in the Catholic Faith, and not see things in black and white, but not be Charismatic. In fact, I am led by the Holy Spirit in silence, most of the time...in the silence of Adoration, or the silence of the Mass...[/quote]

I thought I specifically addressed this earlier.

There are two senses of being charismatic, one a necessary part of all Christianity and one that is a specific devotion that builds upon that and has the exterior dimensions that we think of when we talk about being charismatic. The former is is unbroken from the time of Jesus and necessary to Christianity. The latter is not.

Movements and spiritualities tend to arise to combat heresies, laxities, etc. to keep the Universal Church healthy and true to Herself.

[LouisvilleFan]

The root of problems that people associate with Charismatic groups runs deeper than the simple fact that they happen to be Charismatic. There are certain types of people/personalities that are drawn more towards different movements, and I think it's fair to say that people who aren't as loyal to the Church as most of us are and may be more "free" in their Christian faith are drawn towards the Charismatic Renewal. It's also true that the CCR began during a turbulent time for society and the Church and we all know that most Catholics who grew up during the 60s and 70s, if they are still Catholic at all, aren't known for their love of Latin (It's ironic, when you think about it, that the people who are always seeking Truth don't want to hear it.) Therefore, you're going to find more problematic teachings and things in the CCR, especially in the Baby Boomer generation (at least in my limited experience, but I'm sure there are exceptions).

We just need to be careful about automatically assuming that the CCR is the problem. If it were, we wouldn't find so many faithful, very orthodox Charismatics within the movement. A lot of people write off all of Catholicism or Christianity for similar reasons that some of you write of the CCR. It's easy to take a few bad experiences and extrapolate them to a whole group, but usually we've just seen the bad apples.

Edited August 9, 2007 by LouisvilleFan

[Slappo]

[quote name='scardella' post='1353753' date='Aug 9 2007, 06:59 AM']Sorry... just because you're in the midst of the 5th, 6th, whatever mansion, you still need communal prayer. I have big issues with what I've bolded. If "being alone with God" were all advanced contemplatives needed, they'd all go into hermitage once they've gone to that state. Theresa of Avila, Therese of Lisieux, and John of the Cross all lived communally. That's not an accident. It's quite necessary to have community if for no other reason than humility. When you're by yourself, it's quite easy to go off the deep end. If you'd notice, Jesus' only recorded temptations were when he was alone.[/quote]

What kind of communal prayer do you think we "need"... obviously hermits don't NEED communal prayer, St. Benedict when he ran off into a cave did not NEED communal prayer. I have very little communal prayer, and even when I'm praying in a community... it is a couple of friends and I that go to the chapel and pray silent meditation, maybe a group rosary. Of course I go to mass which is in a community... but other than that I have really almost no "communal prayer". Prayer is not about me, my next door neighbor, and God... prayer is about me and God. I don't understand where you get this idea of a need for communal prayer. Is it a good thing to pray with your community? Yes, of course! Is it necessary for advancement in the spiritual life? No... not at all.

[quote name='scardella' post='1353753' date='Aug 9 2007, 06:59 AM']I'm not getting into another guitars in liturgy argument. Unless the Magisterium says "no guitars" explicitly, the GIRM allows for instruments "suitable for worship" or similar, I'm assuming that guitars can be made suitable for worship.[/quote]

Correct, guitars CAN be made suitable for worship. Depending on how they are played. Does this include electric guitars, Bass guitars, full drum sets....? Crashing symbols in mass don't exactly strike reverence in the hearts of the faithful. Outside of mass, Praise God with the crashing symbol, just as the psalms say! A slow strumming guitar, or even picking guitar strings for a melody would probably be fine for mass, but even then, not all the time. Honestly, this is why we need authority, because even sayings like "suitable for worship" need to be defined otherwise it is taken too far.

[Seven77]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1354041' date='Aug 9 2007, 01:29 PM']I don't understand where you get this idea of a need for communal prayer. Is it a good thing to pray with your community? Yes, of course! Is it necessary for advancement in the spiritual life? No... not at all.[/quote]

The Holy Mass is not necessary for advancement in the spiritual life!?!

Let's not forget that the Lord said "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." (Matt. 18:20). He's the One Who prayed the Passover and Who prayed alone on the mountain.

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I also would like to reiterate--for the record--that i don't like loud bass and drums at Mass (i love Latin)...but I also attend Charismatic prayer group and p&w sessions with the aforementioned music.

Balance.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Seven77' post='1354062' date='Aug 9 2007, 12:01 PM']The Holy Mass is not necessary for advancement in the spiritual life!?!

Let's not forget that the Lord said "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." (Matt. 18:20). He's the One Who prayed the Passover and Who prayed alone on the mountain.

------

I also would like to reiterate--for the record--that i don't like loud bass and drums at Mass (i love Latin)...but I also attend Charismatic prayer group and p&w sessions with the aforementioned music.

Balance.[/quote]

Sorry I should have clarified that more. If you look at the string of posts I had already mentioned that Mass was necessary, along with Liturgy of the Hours for those whom are religious/clergy (required by canon law). He was referring to communal prayer outside Liturgy of the Hours and Holy Mass.

[Ora et Labora]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1354041' date='Aug 9 2007, 02:29 PM']What kind of communal prayer do you think we "need"... obviously hermits don't NEED communal prayer, St. Benedict when he ran off into a cave did not NEED communal prayer. I have very little communal prayer, and even when I'm praying in a community... it is a couple of friends and I that go to the chapel and pray silent meditation, maybe a group rosary. Of course I go to mass which is in a community... but other than that I have really almost no "communal prayer". Prayer is not about me, my next door neighbor, and God... prayer is about me and God. I don't understand where you get this idea of a need for communal prayer. Is it a good thing to pray with your community? Yes, of course! Is it necessary for advancement in the spiritual life? No... not at all.[/quote]



I agree.

[scardella]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1354041' date='Aug 9 2007, 02:29 PM']What kind of communal prayer do you think we "need"... obviously hermits don't NEED communal prayer, St. Benedict when he ran off into a cave did not NEED communal prayer. I have very little communal prayer, and even when I'm praying in a community... it is a couple of friends and I that go to the chapel and pray silent meditation, maybe a group rosary. Of course I go to mass which is in a community... but other than that I have really almost no "communal prayer". Prayer is not about me, my next door neighbor, and God... prayer is about me and God. I don't understand where you get this idea of a need for communal prayer. Is it a good thing to pray with your community? Yes, of course! Is it necessary for advancement in the spiritual life? No... not at all.[/quote]

BTW, I'm certainly including things like spiritual direction, catechesis, etc. in my understanding of communal spiritual activities. It may not be prayer [i]per se[/i] but it is wholly bound up in your spiritual life.

Paraphrasing because I'm not bothering to look it up...
- The greatest commandment: love God with all your heart, all your mind and all your strength. The second is this: love your neighbor as yourself.
- They will know we are Christians by our love for one another.
- Preach the Gospel to the ends of the earth and baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
- We are one body in Christ. (plus the whole analogy that Paul uses)
- If you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, first go and reconcile with your brother, then go offer your gift.
- If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.
- It is not good for man to be alone.

Even hermits come down from their hermitage every once in a while. (Do they even still have hermits?) It is IMPOSSIBLE to live in this vacuum where only you and God exists. Jesus spent time both alone in prayer and with his disciples. Your vocation may call you to emphasize one side or the other, but both must be fulfilled to some degree. It is far too easy to rationalize things when you don't have other people to tell you about the speck (or the beam) in your eye.

Edited August 9, 2007 by scardella

[Seven77]

[quote]2664 There is no other way of Christian prayer than Christ. Whether our prayer is communal or personal, vocal or interior, it has access to the Father only if we pray "in the name" of Jesus. The sacred humanity of Jesus is therefore the way by which the Holy Spirit teaches us to pray to God our Father.[/quote]

Pope Benedict XVI has voiced support of communal prayer meetings. Families pray communally.

We all need to beware of opposing legitimate provisions of Mother Church.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Seven77' post='1354278' date='Aug 9 2007, 03:06 PM']Pope Benedict XVI has voiced support of communal prayer meetings. Families pray communally.

We all need to beware of opposing legitimate provisions of Mother Church.[/quote]


Whoa Whoa slow down there... I NEVER said I was opposed to communal prayer! I'm simply making the argument that it is not necessary for advancement spiritually, and adding that in late stages of spiritual growth (I.E contemplation) private personal prayer is better for ones own advancement in the spiritual life.

Okay, spiritual direction is not prayer, neither is catechesis, therefore they don't fit into the communal prayer category. Still being on the topic of the Charismatic renewal, we have had spiritual directors for centuries, we have had catechesis for centuries, we have had the charismatic renewal for 40 years. Spiritaul directors have been seen as highly beneficial for ages, catechesis is necessary to know God.

As for what Pope Benedict said about praying with families, yes it is a very good thing! Pray a rosary every night, and let each family member offer petitions. That is amazingly good for the spiritual growth of the family as a whole, especially to root the children in the faith. I don't quite see what we are arguing about. The other thing is how is a hermit going to pray a rosary with his family when he is in the mountains, a cloistered nun (who would have a schedule that would involve communal prayer mostly including LOHT and Holy Mass only, possibly a group rosary).

As for hermits, yes they are still out there. Fr. Corapi is even a hermit. He says in one of his talks to seminarians that for every hour he preaches, he spends 100 hours in personal prayer. There was a hermit deacon that came up to my city for the ordination of one of our diocesan priests.

Here's a good question that I just thought of... what about those religious orders that used to/still do take vows of silence? What kind of communal prayer do you expect from them? Besides Holy Mass I doubt they really speak much.

The whole point I'm trying to make is there is nothing that requires (outside of Holy Mass and LOHT as stated earlier) us to pray communally, and there is nothing that says that there is no advancement without communal prayer. Balance is good... but how do you weigh balance? How do you weigh contemplative graces with vocal prayer?

[scardella]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1355151' date='Aug 10 2007, 11:21 AM']Whoa Whoa slow down there... I NEVER said I was opposed to communal prayer! I'm simply making the argument that it is not necessary for advancement spiritually, and adding that in late stages of spiritual growth (I.E contemplation) private personal prayer is better for ones own advancement in the spiritual life.[/quote]

It may be the primary engine of advancement in your spiritual life at that point, but the fact that the Church [b]requires[/b] Mass attendance and LOTH (for many priests/religious/nuns) is itself a witness to the [b]necessity[/b] of communal prayer, whether you're "huh, I'm Catholic?" or "I clean the upper portion of the chapel by levitating in prayerful ecstasies".

As for spiritual direction and catechesis, they're both spiritual activities that bear directly upon your prayer life and spiritual advancement. I think it's pretty relevant.

[quote]Okay, spiritual direction is not prayer, neither is catechesis, therefore they don't fit into the communal prayer category. Still being on the topic of the Charismatic renewal, we have had spiritual directors for centuries, we have had catechesis for centuries, we have had the charismatic renewal for 40 years. Spiritaul directors have been seen as highly beneficial for ages, catechesis is necessary to know God.

As for what Pope Benedict said about praying with families, yes it is a very good thing! Pray a rosary every night, and let each family member offer petitions. That is amazingly good for the spiritual growth of the family as a whole, especially to root the children in the faith. I don't quite see what we are arguing about. The other thing is how is a hermit going to pray a rosary with his family when he is in the mountains, a cloistered nun (who would have a schedule that would involve communal prayer mostly including LOHT and Holy Mass only, possibly a group rosary).[/quote]

So...If I'm incredibly holy (divine union) and happen to be married (since all are called to divine union) I should not pray with my family because it's not going to help myself grow spiritually as much?

[quote]As for hermits, yes they are still out there. Fr. Corapi is even a hermit. He says in one of his talks to seminarians that for every hour he preaches, he spends 100 hours in personal prayer. There was a hermit deacon that came up to my city for the ordination of one of our diocesan priests.

Here's a good question that I just thought of... what about those religious orders that used to/still do take vows of silence? What kind of communal prayer do you expect from them? Besides Holy Mass I doubt they really speak much.

The whole point I'm trying to make is there is nothing that requires (outside of Holy Mass and LOHT as stated earlier) us to pray communally, and there is nothing that says that there is no advancement without communal prayer. Balance is good... but how do you weigh balance? How do you weigh contemplative graces with vocal prayer?[/quote]

I've never excluded Mass and LOTH from my point. All I said was that everyone needs both personal prayer and corporate prayer. Some need a different balance of prayer (between individual and corporate prayer) than you.

My issue is that you seem to imply that need for corporate prayer somehow decreases as you get holier. I have not experienced that in my own life. I know people who've been attending charismatic prayer meetings for 20+ years, who outwardly radiate holiness, and have not felt the need or desire to abandon it because private prayer is all they need.

As an aside, when you get to that level of holiness, I would imagine that corporate prayer would become more about self-donation than receiving. You pour yourself out as an offering for the holiness of the others, and your own self/growth/needs often get put on the back-burner. It wouldn't change the fact that you're still praying in the corporate prayer, but the motivation would certainly be purer (and, thus, the merit be more as well).

BTW, as a personal note, when I was on my "contemplative prayer is everything I should worry about" phase, I almost started thinking like this... then I realized I was becoming scrupulous about it and underestimating the benefits of communal prayer. I got better when I stopped worrying about "what mansion am I in?" etc.

Oh, another thing, are you in the late stages of spiritual growth yet?

[Slappo]

[quote name='scardella' post='1355282' date='Aug 10 2007, 11:30 AM']It may be the primary engine of advancement in your spiritual life at that point, but the fact that the Church [b]requires[/b] Mass attendance and LOTH (for many priests/religious/nuns) is itself a witness to the [b]necessity[/b] of communal prayer, whether you're "huh, I'm Catholic?" or "I clean the upper portion of the chapel by levitating in prayerful ecstasies".[/quote]

How cool would that be.. cleaning the ceiling of the chapel by levitating? I can see it now, "New insites on how Michael Angel painted the Cistine (sp) chapel!"

[quote name='scardella' post='1355282' date='Aug 10 2007, 11:30 AM']So...If I'm incredibly holy (divine union) and happen to be married (since all are called to divine union) I should not pray with my family because it's not going to help myself grow spiritually as much?[/quote]

I would say if you were a parent, that you even had an obligation to pray with your family. To not do so would not be raising your children in the faith. Please don't take my words to extremes.

[quote name='scardella' post='1355282' date='Aug 10 2007, 11:30 AM']I've never excluded Mass and LOTH from my point. All I said was that everyone needs both personal prayer and corporate prayer. Some need a different balance of prayer (between individual and corporate prayer) than you.

My issue is that you seem to imply that need for corporate prayer somehow decreases as you get holier. I have not experienced that in my own life. I know people who've been attending charismatic prayer meetings for 20+ years, who outwardly radiate holiness, and have not felt the need or desire to abandon it because private prayer is all they need.[/quote]

There is a difference between what we need and what we do. If I were in the late stages of contemplation I would not go seeking out prayer groups, but if someone invited me to one and I had the time to make it, I might go, or even start going regularly, but not because I need to. I would never put a prayer group before personal prayer if I were in late stages of contemplation. I would sacrifice going to prayer groups to make sure that I got personal prayer time if I was too busy. The idea that I am trying to convey is that personal prayer time, private meditation and later contemplation is a necessity, one cannot advance without it. One can advance without prayer groups (again as a given outside LOTH and Mass). In later stages of spiritual growth, personal prayer is the MAIN way one advances (outside Mass). Is there growth from communal prayer? Of course, every prayer we pray out of love for God can be spiritually beneficial.

[quote name='scardella' post='1355282' date='Aug 10 2007, 11:30 AM']As an aside, when you get to that level of holiness, I would imagine that corporate prayer would become more about self-donation than receiving. You pour yourself out as an offering for the holiness of the others, and your own self/growth/needs often get put on the back-burner. It wouldn't change the fact that you're still praying in the corporate prayer, but the motivation would certainly be purer (and, thus, the merit be more as well).[/quote]

Agreed

[quote name='scardella' post='1355282' date='Aug 10 2007, 11:30 AM']BTW, as a personal note, when I was on my "contemplative prayer is everything I should worry about" phase, I almost started thinking like this... then I realized I was becoming scrupulous about it and underestimating the benefits of communal prayer. I got better when I stopped worrying about "what mansion am I in?" etc.

Oh, another thing, are you in the late stages of spiritual growth yet?[/quote]

No I'm not in late stages of spiritual growth, as stated above. I am mainly going off of what I have read from holy priests and saints of the Church. I have personally found a huge difference in how much I grow spiritually between group prayer and private prayer. I have also found that I would not have had any desire or patience for personal prayer if I didn't first develop a prayer life through community.

4 or so months ago I was all worried about what mansion I was in etc... and now I don't really think about it too much. I was praying for contemplative graces.. and now I just try to detach myself from things of the world when I notice they are becoming a prominent distraction from God. I know where you are coming from with the scrupulosity though, and I don't think I'm there (anymore). I stopped focussing my life around striving to be open to contemplative graces and instead am focusing on developing a strong prayer life with frequent reception of the sacraments, growing in love for family etc... which I think would probably all be necessary to grow spiritually anyways!

[Slappo]

Err... Michael Angel... haha .. Michael Angelo.. *sigh*

[VeniteAdoremus]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1355381' date='Aug 11 2007, 12:26 AM']Err... Michael Angel... haha .. Michael Angelo.. *sigh*[/quote]

Michelangelo - it's his first name. (Sorry - by all means do get back on topic after this )

[scardella]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1355379' date='Aug 10 2007, 05:26 PM']How cool would that be.. cleaning the ceiling of the chapel by levitating? I can see it now, "New insites on how Michael Angel painted the Cistine (sp) chapel!" [/quote]

[url="http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintj04.htm"]St. Joseph of Cupertino[/url]

[quote]There is a difference between what we need and what we do. If I were in the late stages of contemplation I would not go seeking out prayer groups, but if someone invited me to one and I had the time to make it, I might go, or even start going regularly, but not because I need to. I would never put a prayer group before personal prayer if I were in late stages of contemplation. I would sacrifice going to prayer groups to make sure that I got personal prayer time if I was too busy. The idea that I am trying to convey is that personal prayer time, private meditation and later contemplation is a necessity, one cannot advance without it. One can advance without prayer groups (again as a given outside LOTH and Mass). In later stages of spiritual growth, personal prayer is the MAIN way one advances (outside Mass). Is there growth from communal prayer? Of course, every prayer we pray out of love for God can be spiritually beneficial.[/quote]

Strictly speaking, the vast majority of prayer is not "necessary." I think the real question is "does corporate prayer cease to serve a purpose once someone has reached advanced spiritual growth?" And the answer to that, I believe, is a resounding no.

I'd like to offer two observations. First for the most part, (unless you're caught up in ecstasies) when you grow to a new type of prayer, it seems more that it is added to the prayer you're already praying. For instance, when you first start praying the rosary, it is merely vocal prayer. However, as you begin to delve into the mysteries, you [b]add[/b] the meditative part. You do not cease the vocal part. In essence, it would no longer truly be a rosary if it did not include the vocal (Hail Marys, Our Fathers, etc.) prayers which define the structure of the rosary. In the same way most of the time, contemplative prayer augments the prayer that you're already praying. Second, each type of prayer (vocal, meditative, contemplative) corresponds to a portion of your being. Vocal regards the body, meditative regards the mind and contemplative regards the soul itself. (I do know that the human person is a soul-body union and that the intellect is some contingent of one, the other or the union, but at the same time, the mind is immaterial but is not the soul, per se.) If that conjecture is true, then, to be praying with your whole person, you need to use all three to pray, the lower along with the higher.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='rjzaar' post='1352716' date='Aug 8 2007, 05:22 AM']I have really enjoyed the discussion so far and you have made some important points that I agree with, though I would like to share some clarifications.

The charismatic gifts are clearly expressed in the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium (para 4 I think) which means it IS Catholic. You would have to reject the Magisterium to reject the Charismatic Renewal.

Fr. Killian MacDonald researched the early Church documents on the Charismatic Renewal and discovered many references to practices that are exactly the same as those experienced today. The Acts of the Apostles have many references to charismatic experiences.

There are many Catholic Charismatics in important positions in the Church. Fr. Cantalamessa is the papal preacher (there are many articles written by him on zenit) who is Charismatic. We have 2 Bishops and many priests in my state who are Charismatic.

Contemplation can be a positive experience (called consolation) or empty/ugly/dry experience (called desolation). Generally in the early experience it starts as a consolation - this is similar to the 'warmth' felt by charismatics. The 'infused' contemplation that mystics experience will go through the dark night of the senses and then eventually the dark night of the soul (a la St. John of the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila). If you really want a detailed description of all this TAN has reprinted 'The Spiritual Life' by Adolphe Tanqueray which is ( I believe) the deepest and clearest text on each of the stages.

I think there is a connection between the 'prayer of quiet' and the Charismatic experience. I believe the gift of tongues leads the person gently into contemplation. Being 'slain in the spirit' appears to me to be a deeper gift of contemplation. So I conclude that God is giving the mystical gifts to mere beginners in the spiritual life. Like taking the pay packet of an executive and throwing it to children. It is then for the children to work on their spiritual life to achieve the holiness that matches the gifts given. Because of free will, this does not happen always and so the gifts are easily abused. People do not progress into lives of giving and loving, of faithfulness to the magisterium, of evangelical zeal. They can become complacent and fall in love with the gift rather than the giver of the gift. These incredible gifts of love are meant to draw us closer to God in service to His Church.

There are many signs of success, but also failure. The Charismatic Community is still on a journey (as we all are). These gifts are from God and so will always be mysterious, we will never fully understand them. So to box them is to box God and the Holy Spirit. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is not a good idea. That does not mean we can't discern them. We must. They are at our service not the other way around.

The real question is one of discernment.

The charismatic movement is a great opportunity for ecumenism with the pentecostals. To use the charismatic gifts properly, will lead many pentecostals to join the Church.

The reason to be open to the gifts is to be like Mary, 'let it be done to me according to your word'. Be open the Spouse of the Holy Spirit to lead you to these gifts of God. Mary was there at Pentecost, these gifts are as of a new pentecost. At Mary's greeting John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Mary, I pray to you, to guide each person who reads this to clearly discern the Holy Spirit's movement and to be open like you to God in all things. Holy Spirit enkindle the fire of your love in us and equip us with all the gifts you wish to give us to be your labourers in your vineyard, in Jesus name, Amen.[/quote]

i think this was the best post so far!

if Raneiro Cantalamessa is good enough to be the preacher to this pope and the last, then he's good enough for me! check out his stuff... and Killian McDonnell's... and Cardinal Suenen's...

CCC 2003: "Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in teh salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are [i][/i]sacramental graces,[i][/i] gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore [i][/i]special graces,[i][/i] also called [i][/i]charisms[i][/i] after the Greek terms used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit..."

sounds to me like we need both kinds of grace. Come, Holy Spirit.