Charismatic Movement

[Mercy me]

Back on topic...I am not uncomfortable with the Charismatic movement. On the contary, I believe that God can do what he wants and most anything He does will blow my mind. Who am I to say what God can or cannot give? I have at times felt that some "gifts" are forced and that sometimes there is a bit of pressure within these groups to have a charism. My attitude has always been if He wants me to have a gift He will give it, so it doesn't bother me.

[Ora et Labora]

Like I said, I don't mind it either...I just wold prefer the Mass without as much...that's all.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Ora et Labora' post='1350569' date='Aug 5 2007, 06:52 PM'](Whose...mine? If so, thank you. What's weird is, for a month now, I haven't been able to see anyones sigs!! But, I remember what mine is, and I love it too! )[/quote]

(yep yours! I can't see anyone's either...but see the lines at the bottoms of all your posts? highlight underneath them...)

[Ora et Labora]

ok...that's weird! haha! i love yours!

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1350612' date='Aug 5 2007, 06:29 PM']I hope to visit some SSPX chapels in the next few months. I am looking forward to it.

Why am I not joining the FSSP, SSPX, Institute of Christ the King, etc. now? Money. It would be hard to pay $7000 USD yearly.[/quote]

Yeah, I guess going to the ICKSP or FSSP (NOT the SSPX, [b]DON'T go there[/b]) isn't as important as it used to be since the Motu Proprio, but I have a question like Brendan's. Have you even been to the Extraordinary Form before? I have, almost every Sunday and Holyday two years.

[quote name='brendan1104' post='1350616' date='Aug 5 2007, 06:31 PM']You do realize that if your diocese knew what you were writing and planning, they wouldn't accept you as a seminarian or ordain you, right?[/quote]

Yep that's true. I hope your identity over the internet is pretty secretive.

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1350623' date='Aug 5 2007, 06:39 PM']Don't get involved with the SSPX, or their ideas. from what i understand they are made up of good Folks, many of whom may not even be in schism. they pass on a lie that, unfortunately, appealed to me, and was a large contributing factor of why i lapsed out of Catholicism.
From what ive seen on their website they are also a very puritanical organization.[/quote]

Remember when you were reading [i]Open Letter to Confused Catholics[/i]? Maybe if you would have been reading authoritative magisterial documents and catechisms you faith would have been stronger...

Edited August 6, 2007 by StThomasMore

[Slappo]

I don't have time to read this all as I am at work and my break ends in negative 1 minute, but I will read all the posts when I get home. Sorry if this is a repeat.

I'll keep it short for now, basic backround. I went to Steubenville my freshmen year. Loved the Charismatic movement, at first a little skeptical, then not so much. Went back home for a year, had time to cool off of Charismatic movement, became more traditional (super excited about motu proprio btw! Hope they celibrate it at steubie when im there next year! *crosses fingers*). I spent a lot of time reading lives of the saints, reading books about mystical spirituality and the teachings of the Church on prayer, especially those of St's Teresa of Jesus and John of the Cross (two doctors of the Church based on their teachings of prayer). I don't know how I feel about the Charismatic movement now.

Whether the Charismatic movement is legit or not is not what I want to discuss, but rather the depth of prayer. The charismatic praying done is almost pure vocal prayer, very little meditative if any. The prayer life of a Catholic should progress as follows:
from vocal prayer to meditative prayer to contemplative prayer (only through the grace of God). As vocal prayer is only the beginning of a Catholics prayer life I want to stress that although the Charismatic movement may be a good thing and spiritually deepening, it is NOT an end to itself (in my opinion). The deepening of love for Christ the Charismatic movement can bring is GOOD (even if skeptical, it still brings people to love Christ). The depth of love that we should strive to have for Christ is much deeper than what the Charismatic movement could ever offer due to the nature of prayer. I will write more later.

God bless,
Marcus

[kateri05]

[quote]but rather the depth of prayer. The charismatic praying done is almost pure vocal prayer, very little meditative if any. The prayer life of a Catholic should progress as follows:
from vocal prayer to meditative prayer to contemplative prayer (only through the grace of God).[/quote]

this is a very interesting point, that i have never heard raised..... i think it definitely deserves discussion and i would be interested to hear a member of the charismatic renewal respond.

[Slappo]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1350217' date='Aug 5 2007, 09:16 AM']Probably not in dogmatic theology because he was the head of the Inquisition, but I hope you do know that when a Pope decides to write an authoritative document on faith or morals, he consults numerous theologians and other "experts" as well as the Cardinals and the Roman Curia for their opinions.[/quote]

I would like to add that although the Holy Father very frequently consults numerous theologians, bishops, and Cardinals for their opinions, he has also been known to throw them aside and not listen to anything they may have disagreed with him on. Look at Pope JPII's Apostolic Letter Rosarium Virginis Mariae. He sent out a copy of the letter several Bishops and I'm sure Cardinal's asking for their opinion. They came back with feedback saying that they thing he should lessen the emphasis he is putting on Mary, along with several other comments that they left him. He kindly thanked them for their comments and published the letter as is. So although the Holy Father is fallible, he is also very frequently one of the best theologians in the world due if nothing else to his level of holiness and how much he is lead by the Holy Spirit what with being Vicar of Christ and all that.

[Slappo]

I promised to follow up and add more. Looking back on what I said I think I covered most of it, but I would like to add a few quotes from "Fire Within" St. Teresa of Avila St John of the Cross and the Gospel on Prayer written by Fr. Thomas Dubay S.M on contemplation.

What is contemplation:
"Christian contemplation is nothing less than a deep love communion with the triune God. By depth here we mean a knowing loving that we cannot produce but only recieve. It is not merely a mentally expressed 'I love You'. It is a wordless awareness and love that we of ourselves cannot initiate or prolong."

"Repeatedly, Teresa insists that contemplative prayer is divinely produced. She calls this prayer even in its delicate beginnings 'supernatural'..."

Fr. Thomas Dubay continues that vocal prayer is a way to lead to contemplative prayer, and can even bring us in to contemplative prayer once we have reached a stage of contemplation. So by no means is vocal prayer a bad thing. It is a VERY good thing. The liturgy is a vocal prayer! However ALL vocal prayer is to lead to contemplation. For those charismatics who might see being slain in the spirit as contemplation, this is incorrect. When I first began studying mysticism I was thinking the same thing, but looking deeper into contemplative prayer I found that I was quite mistaken. I TRULY reccomend that all who are interested in contemplative prayer read both section IV of the catechism, Fr. Thomas Dubay's Fire Within, and the extended works of St's John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila whom as I have previously said are doctors of the Church due to their teachings on Christian Prayer.

I don't know enough about contemplation to explain it really, but I'll say from reading their works, it is far beyond what I've seen the Charismatic movement lead people to. It is so much deeper. This is not to say that the Charismatic movement cannot lead people to it. Pretty much I want to say that even if the Charismatic movement is a good thing in itself (which although I have doubts about, I do not deny the possibility) it is not an end in itself.

Thoughts? Discussion? Anyone else read much about contemplation?

God bless,
Marcus

[tvu_srfan]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1351501' date='Aug 6 2007, 09:23 PM']Whether the Charismatic movement is legit or not is not what I want to discuss, but rather the depth of prayer. The charismatic praying done is almost pure vocal prayer, very little meditative if any. The prayer life of a Catholic should progress as follows:
from vocal prayer to meditative prayer to contemplative prayer (only through the grace of God). As vocal prayer is only the beginning of a Catholics prayer life I want to stress that although the Charismatic movement may be a good thing and spiritually deepening, it is NOT an end to itself (in my opinion). The deepening of love for Christ the Charismatic movement can bring is GOOD (even if skeptical, it still brings people to love Christ). The depth of love that we should strive to have for Christ is much deeper than what the Charismatic movement could ever offer due to the nature of prayer. I will write more later.[/quote]


[quote name='kateri05' post='1351505' date='Aug 6 2007, 09:28 PM']this is a very interesting point, that i have never heard raised..... i think it definitely deserves discussion and i would be interested to hear a member of the charismatic renewal respond.[/quote]

I would [i]not[/i] called myself a member of the charismatic renewal now, and I used to be skeptical of it, until I went to a Steubenville conference and actually experienced it myself.

*What I say from here is only from my short weekend experience of being in the presence of charismatics.

According to my experience that Saturday night, I do think that vocal prayer is important in the Charismatic movement. However, it was the vocal prayers that really alerted me to seeing how the Holy Spirit was present with us. I had never been in that situation before, where people prayed out loud from their hearts. There were certain parts of the night where we were encouraged to pray in however way we wanted to. Whether it was standing, sitting, kneeling, praying out loud, praying within the silence of our hearts, simply calling Jesus' name repeatedly, singing an inspired song etc. It was really moving to just witness how open everyone was to worshiping and adoring the Lord.

Most of that was all [i]before[/i] adoration. Once the Blessed Sacrament was present, there was a quietness, a reverence. During [i]some[/i] of adoration, we had some quiet worship music in the background, however not the whole time. We did have meditative prayer, and there was silence.

That was just a description of what I witnessed. From what I remember, I don't think there was that much vocal prayer. We did have a rosary though. But I know there was a lot of praise and worship, however having never been to a Catholic praise and worship before, it was a very powerful and emotional experience for me.
-----------
I do believe that the Charismatic Renewal has been inspired by the Holy Spirit. And has been significant in the "renewal" of Catholics' faith. However, I do think that there should be a balance. Franciscan University seems to keep that balance. I really do think [i]dynamic orthodoxy[/i] fits them. I've been to the university before and mass isn't all "clap your hands and shout out loud." The mass was very reverent, the only thing that was different was the uplifting (appropriate for mass) worship music and people raising their hands. Oh and random fact, they will soon be reconstructing the main church in order to make it larger and look more traditional.

Just my two cents.

[Ora et Labora]

Thanks for your two cents.

[tvu_srfan]

[quote name='Ora et Labora' post='1351641' date='Aug 6 2007, 11:27 PM']Thanks for your two cents. [/quote]

My dad says that a lot. His sayings kinda rub off on me.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1351501' date='Aug 6 2007, 09:23 PM']Whether the Charismatic movement is legit or not is not what I want to discuss, but rather the depth of prayer. The charismatic praying done is almost pure vocal prayer, very little meditative if any. The prayer life of a Catholic should progress as follows:
from vocal prayer to meditative prayer to contemplative prayer (only through the grace of God). As vocal prayer is only the beginning of a Catholics prayer life I want to stress that although the Charismatic movement may be a good thing and spiritually deepening, it is NOT an end to itself (in my opinion). The deepening of love for Christ the Charismatic movement can bring is GOOD (even if skeptical, it still brings people to love Christ). The depth of love that we should strive to have for Christ is much deeper than what the Charismatic movement could ever offer due to the nature of prayer. I will write more later.[/quote]

Can you explain the difference between mediative and contemplative prayer? They sound very similar to me. I see you followed up with an explanation of contemplation, but I'm still not sure how it differs from meditation.

I don't have the gift of tongues, but most of my Catholic relatives and friends of theirs do have it and it seems like praying in tongues (especially in private) can be very mediative or contemplative. Because praying in tongues exceeds our understanding, it shifts our focus away from the words in our minds and more towards simply praising God with our hearts, without the limitations of our vernacular tongues. That's why I think the Charismatic gifts can be especially fruitful for people whose spirituality is very knowledge-focused, or in their head, because it helps them connect what's in their head with what should be in their heart.

In a way, isn't that also part of the appeal of Latin? Because it's a foreign tongue, even if we know the translation, it still exceeds our understanding in a way that our native tongue cannot. So when you're attending a Tridentine Rite Mass, the Latin adds to the "otherworldly" experience (that Mass should be) and it calls our minds to focusing less on words and more on praising God with our hearts. That's what I get from it anyway

Edited August 7, 2007 by LouisvilleFan

[Resurrexi]

Why on earth are Catholic attempting to pray in tongues? Let's look at Catholic tradition in the West. The practice hasn't been done since apostolic times. Let's look at the East. The practice hasn't been done since apostolic times. Why should a practice that was abandoned by the Universal Church 1900 years ago be brought back?

[brendan1104]

Tongues back then was different than now - when the apostles spoke in tongues at Pentecost, it was in their own language, and the others could understand in theirs. Now it's just babbbling. Or quoting parts of prayers.