Charismatic Movement

[Slappo]

I don't have time to read this all as I am at work and my break ends in negative 1 minute, but I will read all the posts when I get home. Sorry if this is a repeat.

I'll keep it short for now, basic backround. I went to Steubenville my freshmen year. Loved the Charismatic movement, at first a little skeptical, then not so much. Went back home for a year, had time to cool off of Charismatic movement, became more traditional (super excited about motu proprio btw! Hope they celibrate it at steubie when im there next year! *crosses fingers*). I spent a lot of time reading lives of the saints, reading books about mystical spirituality and the teachings of the Church on prayer, especially those of St's Teresa of Jesus and John of the Cross (two doctors of the Church based on their teachings of prayer). I don't know how I feel about the Charismatic movement now.

Whether the Charismatic movement is legit or not is not what I want to discuss, but rather the depth of prayer. The charismatic praying done is almost pure vocal prayer, very little meditative if any. The prayer life of a Catholic should progress as follows:
from vocal prayer to meditative prayer to contemplative prayer (only through the grace of God). As vocal prayer is only the beginning of a Catholics prayer life I want to stress that although the Charismatic movement may be a good thing and spiritually deepening, it is NOT an end to itself (in my opinion). The deepening of love for Christ the Charismatic movement can bring is GOOD (even if skeptical, it still brings people to love Christ). The depth of love that we should strive to have for Christ is much deeper than what the Charismatic movement could ever offer due to the nature of prayer. I will write more later.

God bless,
Marcus

[kateri05]

[quote]but rather the depth of prayer. The charismatic praying done is almost pure vocal prayer, very little meditative if any. The prayer life of a Catholic should progress as follows:
from vocal prayer to meditative prayer to contemplative prayer (only through the grace of God).[/quote]

this is a very interesting point, that i have never heard raised..... i think it definitely deserves discussion and i would be interested to hear a member of the charismatic renewal respond.

[Slappo]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1350217' date='Aug 5 2007, 09:16 AM']Probably not in dogmatic theology because he was the head of the Inquisition, but I hope you do know that when a Pope decides to write an authoritative document on faith or morals, he consults numerous theologians and other "experts" as well as the Cardinals and the Roman Curia for their opinions.[/quote]

I would like to add that although the Holy Father very frequently consults numerous theologians, bishops, and Cardinals for their opinions, he has also been known to throw them aside and not listen to anything they may have disagreed with him on. Look at Pope JPII's Apostolic Letter Rosarium Virginis Mariae. He sent out a copy of the letter several Bishops and I'm sure Cardinal's asking for their opinion. They came back with feedback saying that they thing he should lessen the emphasis he is putting on Mary, along with several other comments that they left him. He kindly thanked them for their comments and published the letter as is. So although the Holy Father is fallible, he is also very frequently one of the best theologians in the world due if nothing else to his level of holiness and how much he is lead by the Holy Spirit what with being Vicar of Christ and all that.

[Slappo]

I promised to follow up and add more. Looking back on what I said I think I covered most of it, but I would like to add a few quotes from "Fire Within" St. Teresa of Avila St John of the Cross and the Gospel on Prayer written by Fr. Thomas Dubay S.M on contemplation.

What is contemplation:
"Christian contemplation is nothing less than a deep love communion with the triune God. By depth here we mean a knowing loving that we cannot produce but only recieve. It is not merely a mentally expressed 'I love You'. It is a wordless awareness and love that we of ourselves cannot initiate or prolong."

"Repeatedly, Teresa insists that contemplative prayer is divinely produced. She calls this prayer even in its delicate beginnings 'supernatural'..."

Fr. Thomas Dubay continues that vocal prayer is a way to lead to contemplative prayer, and can even bring us in to contemplative prayer once we have reached a stage of contemplation. So by no means is vocal prayer a bad thing. It is a VERY good thing. The liturgy is a vocal prayer! However ALL vocal prayer is to lead to contemplation. For those charismatics who might see being slain in the spirit as contemplation, this is incorrect. When I first began studying mysticism I was thinking the same thing, but looking deeper into contemplative prayer I found that I was quite mistaken. I TRULY reccomend that all who are interested in contemplative prayer read both section IV of the catechism, Fr. Thomas Dubay's Fire Within, and the extended works of St's John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila whom as I have previously said are doctors of the Church due to their teachings on Christian Prayer.

I don't know enough about contemplation to explain it really, but I'll say from reading their works, it is far beyond what I've seen the Charismatic movement lead people to. It is so much deeper. This is not to say that the Charismatic movement cannot lead people to it. Pretty much I want to say that even if the Charismatic movement is a good thing in itself (which although I have doubts about, I do not deny the possibility) it is not an end in itself.

Thoughts? Discussion? Anyone else read much about contemplation?

God bless,
Marcus

[tvu_srfan]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1351501' date='Aug 6 2007, 09:23 PM']Whether the Charismatic movement is legit or not is not what I want to discuss, but rather the depth of prayer. The charismatic praying done is almost pure vocal prayer, very little meditative if any. The prayer life of a Catholic should progress as follows:
from vocal prayer to meditative prayer to contemplative prayer (only through the grace of God). As vocal prayer is only the beginning of a Catholics prayer life I want to stress that although the Charismatic movement may be a good thing and spiritually deepening, it is NOT an end to itself (in my opinion). The deepening of love for Christ the Charismatic movement can bring is GOOD (even if skeptical, it still brings people to love Christ). The depth of love that we should strive to have for Christ is much deeper than what the Charismatic movement could ever offer due to the nature of prayer. I will write more later.[/quote]


[quote name='kateri05' post='1351505' date='Aug 6 2007, 09:28 PM']this is a very interesting point, that i have never heard raised..... i think it definitely deserves discussion and i would be interested to hear a member of the charismatic renewal respond.[/quote]

I would [i]not[/i] called myself a member of the charismatic renewal now, and I used to be skeptical of it, until I went to a Steubenville conference and actually experienced it myself.

*What I say from here is only from my short weekend experience of being in the presence of charismatics.

According to my experience that Saturday night, I do think that vocal prayer is important in the Charismatic movement. However, it was the vocal prayers that really alerted me to seeing how the Holy Spirit was present with us. I had never been in that situation before, where people prayed out loud from their hearts. There were certain parts of the night where we were encouraged to pray in however way we wanted to. Whether it was standing, sitting, kneeling, praying out loud, praying within the silence of our hearts, simply calling Jesus' name repeatedly, singing an inspired song etc. It was really moving to just witness how open everyone was to worshiping and adoring the Lord.

Most of that was all [i]before[/i] adoration. Once the Blessed Sacrament was present, there was a quietness, a reverence. During [i]some[/i] of adoration, we had some quiet worship music in the background, however not the whole time. We did have meditative prayer, and there was silence.

That was just a description of what I witnessed. From what I remember, I don't think there was that much vocal prayer. We did have a rosary though. But I know there was a lot of praise and worship, however having never been to a Catholic praise and worship before, it was a very powerful and emotional experience for me.
-----------
I do believe that the Charismatic Renewal has been inspired by the Holy Spirit. And has been significant in the "renewal" of Catholics' faith. However, I do think that there should be a balance. Franciscan University seems to keep that balance. I really do think [i]dynamic orthodoxy[/i] fits them. I've been to the university before and mass isn't all "clap your hands and shout out loud." The mass was very reverent, the only thing that was different was the uplifting (appropriate for mass) worship music and people raising their hands. Oh and random fact, they will soon be reconstructing the main church in order to make it larger and look more traditional.

Just my two cents.

[Ora et Labora]

Thanks for your two cents.

[tvu_srfan]

[quote name='Ora et Labora' post='1351641' date='Aug 6 2007, 11:27 PM']Thanks for your two cents. [/quote]

My dad says that a lot. His sayings kinda rub off on me.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1351501' date='Aug 6 2007, 09:23 PM']Whether the Charismatic movement is legit or not is not what I want to discuss, but rather the depth of prayer. The charismatic praying done is almost pure vocal prayer, very little meditative if any. The prayer life of a Catholic should progress as follows:
from vocal prayer to meditative prayer to contemplative prayer (only through the grace of God). As vocal prayer is only the beginning of a Catholics prayer life I want to stress that although the Charismatic movement may be a good thing and spiritually deepening, it is NOT an end to itself (in my opinion). The deepening of love for Christ the Charismatic movement can bring is GOOD (even if skeptical, it still brings people to love Christ). The depth of love that we should strive to have for Christ is much deeper than what the Charismatic movement could ever offer due to the nature of prayer. I will write more later.[/quote]

Can you explain the difference between mediative and contemplative prayer? They sound very similar to me. I see you followed up with an explanation of contemplation, but I'm still not sure how it differs from meditation.

I don't have the gift of tongues, but most of my Catholic relatives and friends of theirs do have it and it seems like praying in tongues (especially in private) can be very mediative or contemplative. Because praying in tongues exceeds our understanding, it shifts our focus away from the words in our minds and more towards simply praising God with our hearts, without the limitations of our vernacular tongues. That's why I think the Charismatic gifts can be especially fruitful for people whose spirituality is very knowledge-focused, or in their head, because it helps them connect what's in their head with what should be in their heart.

In a way, isn't that also part of the appeal of Latin? Because it's a foreign tongue, even if we know the translation, it still exceeds our understanding in a way that our native tongue cannot. So when you're attending a Tridentine Rite Mass, the Latin adds to the "otherworldly" experience (that Mass should be) and it calls our minds to focusing less on words and more on praising God with our hearts. That's what I get from it anyway

Edited August 7, 2007 by LouisvilleFan

[Resurrexi]

Why on earth are Catholic attempting to pray in tongues? Let's look at Catholic tradition in the West. The practice hasn't been done since apostolic times. Let's look at the East. The practice hasn't been done since apostolic times. Why should a practice that was abandoned by the Universal Church 1900 years ago be brought back?

[brendan1104]

Tongues back then was different than now - when the apostles spoke in tongues at Pentecost, it was in their own language, and the others could understand in theirs. Now it's just babbbling. Or quoting parts of prayers.

[Ora et Labora]

[quote name='tvu_srfan' post='1351645' date='Aug 6 2007, 10:29 PM']My dad says that a lot. His sayings kinda rub off on me. [/quote]

It rubbed off on me...here!

I still think the Charismatic movement is good...and I think it has a big thing to do with who you are!! Some people just aren't (period!) good with raising hands, and holding hands and rocking...and I'm one of them. I think..and I might be wrong...but it seems to me Charismatic prayer isn't as powerful as reverent prayer. I mean...in the long run. If one is praying while waving arms ect. thats all well and good, but, if there isn't the grace of God...and if one isn't comfortable with silent prayer (silence...such an important part of our Faith) then it seems to me something important is missing. If one isn't comfortable with silence...without the music, and the rocking, and just silence...with GOD! Not with friends...then something isn't right.

Maybe I'm going off. Sorry!

Just some of my thoughts.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1351611' date='Aug 6 2007, 10:54 PM']Pretty much I want to say that even if the Charismatic movement is a good thing in itself (which although I have doubts about, I do not deny the possibility) it is not an end in itself.[/quote]

That's the error that the Charismatic Movement can easily fall into in the unstructured Pentecostal churches, some of which are so far into left field that they cease to be Christian (denial of the Trinity and such). However, within Catholic, Episcopal, or even Baptist churches, there is a pre-existing structure that defines the community's beliefs and the "ends" to which all should be striving, and that seems to push the energy of Charismatic gifts in the right direction. Even where there are some abuses or false teaching, at least they aren't coming from totally out of left field.

[Ora et Labora]

I agree that Charismatic groups have a hold...especially on young people, and gives them a good push into the faith...but, from what I've seen...it doesn't seem to be everlasting. They might help the person start, but they don't seem to help him finish.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='brendan1104' post='1351658' date='Aug 6 2007, 09:38 PM']Tongues back then was different than now - when the apostles spoke in tongues at Pentecost, it was in their own language, and the others could understand in theirs. Now it's just babbbling. Or quoting parts of prayers.[/quote]

Here's what the Haydock Commentary says for Acts 2:4

[quote name='Haydock's Catholic Bible Commentary for Acts 2:4']Ver. 4. Began to speak divers tongues. Perhaps the apostles spoke only their own tongue, and the miracle consisted in each one's understanding it as if they spoke it in his language. (St. Gregory of Nazianzus, orat. xliv.) --- But St. Augustine and most others, understand the text literally; though the apostles had not this gift on all occasions, nor on all subjects, and therefore sometimes stood in need of interpreters. See St. Augustine, in Psalm xvii.; Expos. 2.; and Serm. 188. --- The same Father observes, that the conversion of all nations to the Church, and their being united in one faith, all having one language or confession, is a perpetuation of the same miracle in the Church.[/quote]

Edited August 7, 2007 by StThomasMore

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Ora et Labora' post='1351659' date='Aug 6 2007, 11:38 PM']I still think the Charismatic movement is good...and I think it has a big thing to do with who you are!! Some people just aren't (period!) good with raising hands, and holding hands and rocking...and I'm one of them. I think..and I might be wrong...but it seems to me Charismatic prayer isn't as powerful as reverent prayer.
...
If one isn't comfortable with silence...without the music, and the rocking, and just silence...with GOD! Not with friends...then something isn't right.[/quote]

Charismatics aren't against those things I went to a Life in the Spirit teen retreat back in February and they had a great balance of praise & worship, hand raising, prayer in tongues, etc. along with an hour of silence and times for Adoration and a beautifully reverent Mass on Sunday (no Traditionalist would've known they were closing out a Charismatic retreat ).

So there is room for all of these things. You don't have to like them all, but we should at least recognize that everybody has different personalities and spiritualities, so we all want to express our worship of God in our own way. Obedience to the Catholic faith gives us the freedom to express ourselves without straying off the edge of a cliff.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Ora et Labora' post='1351666' date='Aug 6 2007, 11:42 PM']I agree that Charismatic groups have a hold...especially on young people, and gives them a good push into the faith...but, from what I've seen...it doesn't seem to be everlasting. They might help the person start, but they don't seem to help him finish.[/quote]

You can also say that about the Sacrament of Confirmation. Is there a problem with the sacrament?

It's the nature of young people to rebel, and in today's society that usually happens either in high school or college. How many church youth groups really succeed at keeping young people active in the faith through those years? I don't think many do, whether they're Charismatic or not. Maybe I'm too pessimistic, but that just seems to be how things are today.

[Ora et Labora]

Yes, that's why I said...everyone is different. I just personally don't feel comfortable with that. As long as it's valid, I'm cool.

But lets not get into the LT Mass...

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Ora et Labora' post='1350384' date='Aug 5 2007, 02:44 PM']I don't see anything wrong with charism. Um, I'm not a "clap your hands, hold each others hands and start waving you arms around during Mass" type of person...but hey! Outside of Mass...heck! I LOVE guitars and praises!! I just think there should be more reverence in Mass itself.

Earlier on, I would come onto PM to argue with Charismatics, but I have decided, it doesn't really help to take a strong side, but to just worry about my own soul, and to know what Vatican II teaches. I think us Catholics take sides way too much. But, that's just me.

Ones who love the TLM (like me) are trying to work for the Church, and even though Charism in Mass isn't my thing, I know many people who love it, and who are trying to help the Church as well! I decided to stop taking sides, and to stop arguing about it for nothing, unless others ask me about my personal opinion. [/quote]


[quote name='aalpha1989' post='1350542' date='Aug 5 2007, 06:32 PM']Now for my actual opinion regarding charismatics.

Of course they are members of the Catholic church *glares at certain members of the phorum*!

I believe that Charismatic praise is a legitimate form of worship [i]outside[/i] of the Mass. I pretty much agree with Ora.

I also believe that it is extremely easy to get carried away with the feelings involved in charismatic prayer and to begin to rely on them. It is easy to pray only when one feels like it or when one has an adrenaline rush. It is very important to keep the crucifix in sight and remember that prayer is essential even when it is hard to pray and when one doesnt feel like it. I believe much caution is called for when praying charismatically, but it is not evil or bad. It is quite the opposite. [/quote]

These two posts stood out for me, and I agree. My youth ministry is sorta into the charismatic thing: holding hands during the Our Father, playing praise and worship (during mass though, and outside) and a good friend of mine can do some spontaneous song writing in front of the tabernacle. I've heard stories from some Youth ministry members of going to adoration at some charismatic thing and people were weeping, laughing hysterically, falling over, and many other things. Personally, that sorta thing creeps me out a bit, though I've got a bit teary in some moments. One thing I really question is this "speaking in tongues". The apostles did so after Pentecost, but it was to communicate with others and spread the faith. But now, speaking in tongues seems "extra-biblical", meaning that it's not really described in the bible, with all this secret "babble" that only a few can understand. It doesn't seem to make sense to me. The Holy Spirit isn't Schizophrenic. But yeah, I don't see much problem with it, except I'm not a huggy, touchy feely, sway-y type of guy. It just turns into a stimulation thing, that will not propagate much when the dry season of prayer hits. Also, I prefer more traditional, reverent music in the mass. I'm not exactly asking to go back to Polyphony (though it would be nice), but to at least put aside the guitars and sing some music with harmonies. The voice can be great without instruments. I know not everyone can do this though, but there are people who can... so they should just sing the harmonies :

There is my Canadian two cents (btw, the dollar has gone up to .95 for us. Ergo, my babble is worth a little more this time).

Edited August 7, 2007 by Sacred Music Man

[Ora et Labora]

Ditto. One things for sure...the music could be a little better.

[Moneybags]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1351244' date='Aug 6 2007, 04:04 PM']Remember when you were reading [i]Open Letter to Confused Catholics[/i]? Maybe if you would have been reading authoritative magisterial documents and catechisms you faith would have been stronger...[/quote]

You insult me with "you[r] faith would have been stronger". Just because I am sympathic to the SSPX does not make me weak in Faith. On the contrary, Traditionalists know and follow the Faith - not modernism and liberalism which has entered much of the Church. Only look at the link below for some of the bad news.

[url="http://www.cathcon.blogspot.com/"]http://www.cathcon.blogspot.com/[/url]

The SSPX is part of the solution. I support them with prayers and donations.