Charismatic Movement

[Slappo]

[quote name='Ora et Labora' post='1351919' date='Aug 7 2007, 06:15 AM']thanks Slappo, for your post!! I was wondering the same thing...but didn't feel I needed to say anything since he already asked.

Personally, I'm not big on meditative prayer. It sounds like a great thing! But, I like to be specific with my prayers...I don't know if that's a bad thing. When I go to Adoration, I kneel for a few minutes in silence, then say the Divine Mercy Chaplet, then sit down and do some school (I have 5 siblings and bringing my school to Adoration is helpful, since it's so quiet and peaceful.) Then I pray a few prayers from my One Hour book with Jesus including that litany that begins with "Blessed be God, Blessed be His Holy Name..." I forgot the name of it...? Then I do some spiritual reading.

Lately I've been getting my bible out and reading something specific, and if I like the passage, I copy it down in my journal, or I highlight it. I don't think that's meditative prayer...? But, that's what I do. That's the kind of praying I like to do if I'm by myself. [/quote]


I really have to encourage meditative prayer. The rosary is a meditative prayer and Mary our Mother is the greatest advocate of it! Even the Divine Mercy Chaplet is meditative prayer, while praying vocally, we are to meditate on the passion of Christ. Google Lectio Divina, I believe it was started by St. Benedict about 1500 years ago. The problem with only praying vocal prayers is it makes us too loud with God as some say. When we're busy doing all the talking, when do we have time to listen? In meditative prayer we do the listening. We listen to the Word of God, and then we let God tell us what it means for us, how it can change us, and what steps we need to do to grow in holiness. One thing about meditative prayer that I'll tell you up front is that often times people experience what is called spiritual dryness in meditative prayer. This is when they have a hard time meditating. Don't stop! You may not feel like your going anywhere with it, but God is giving your soul great graces! This has been told to us by the saints.

I think with the Charismatic Movement when it comes to spiritual dryness, many get lost, confused, or think that they are doing something wrong. This is becuase it is so based on emotion and feeling, when truly prayer is based on love and commitment.

God bless,
Marcus

[scardella]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1351501' date='Aug 6 2007, 08:23 PM']Whether the Charismatic movement is legit or not is not what I want to discuss, but rather the depth of prayer. The charismatic praying done is almost pure vocal prayer, very little meditative if any. The prayer life of a Catholic should progress as follows:
from vocal prayer to meditative prayer to contemplative prayer (only through the grace of God). As vocal prayer is only the beginning of a Catholics prayer life I want to stress that although the Charismatic movement may be a good thing and spiritually deepening, it is NOT an end to itself (in my opinion). The deepening of love for Christ the Charismatic movement can bring is GOOD (even if skeptical, it still brings people to love Christ). The depth of love that we should strive to have for Christ is much deeper than what the Charismatic movement could ever offer due to the nature of prayer. I will write more later.[/quote]

BTW, I have read [i]Fire Within[/i]. The quick difference between meditation and contemplation: meditation is primarily the effort of the human, and contemplation is primarily the effort of God. The effectiveness of contemplation is much greater than meditation. Meditation is a mental/spiritual mix, while contemplation can be purely spiritual. IE, it can almost circumvent your brain, and even occur while you're doing something else. Ecstasies are an advanced form of contemplation.

BTW, prayer is never an end unto itself. That would be babbling as the pagans do.

I disagree with the statement that charismatic prayer is always purely vocal. Praise and worship alone may be purely vocal. I can't tell you the number of times that I've been swept into meditation by a song or a word that was given or the rising tide of praise tongues or in the general thick of a prayer meeting. I would almost go so far to say that being "slain in the spirit" is sometimes (definitely not all the time) the onset of a time of contemplative prayer. When they're lying there motionless for a half-hour or more, it's usually not simply some sort of spiritual thrill ride.

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1351654' date='Aug 6 2007, 10:35 PM']Why on earth are Catholic attempting to pray in tongues? Let's look at Catholic tradition in the West. The practice hasn't been done since apostolic times. Let's look at the East. The practice hasn't been done since apostolic times. Why should a practice that was abandoned by the Universal Church 1900 years ago be brought back?[/quote]

Why would you say it was abandoned?

[quote name='Ora et Labora' post='1351666' date='Aug 6 2007, 10:42 PM']I agree that Charismatic groups have a hold...especially on young people, and gives them a good push into the faith...but, from what I've seen...it doesn't seem to be everlasting. They might help the person start, but they don't seem to help him finish.[/quote]

Well, all the old ladies (and men) at the prayer meetings I've gone to around here would disagree. I'd say about half of them have gray hair, and a number of them produced the baby boomers. Many have been involved with the Charismatic movement for 20+ years.

As a final note, charismatic prayer is inherently communal prayer. It cannot and should not be the entirety of one's spiritual life. It does not replace mass attendance, nor personal prayer. I want people to be clear on this. It is a devotion and not necessary to the faith, but it is very helpful for some people. In the same way, strictly speaking, the rosary is not necessary to the faith (I mean, we did without it for over a thousand years) however beneficial it is to people.

Edited August 7, 2007 by scardella

[Slappo]

[quote name='scardella' post='1351970' date='Aug 7 2007, 08:34 AM']I disagree with the statement that charismatic prayer is always purely vocal. Praise and worship alone may be purely vocal. I can't tell you the number of times that I've been swept into meditation by a song or a word that was given or the rising tide of praise tongues or in the general thick of a prayer meeting. I would almost go so far to say that being "slain in the spirit" is sometimes (definitely not all the time) the onset of a time of contemplative prayer. When they're lying there motionless for a half-hour or more, it's usually not simply some sort of spiritual thrill ride.[/quote]

I have to disagree that being slain in the spirit is the onset of contemplative prayer. As St. Teresa explains contemplative prayer, once the level of contemplative prayer is reached God will continue to pull someone into contemplation. Contemplation can also be very spiritually painful if I recall correctly (spiritual dryness even during contemplation). I've never heard of being slain in the spirit as described as spiritually dry or painful, only quite the opposite. Contemplation is also not reached until a high level of detachment from the world has become part of the life of a Christian. Very often charismatics that are slain in the spirit do not have this level of worldly detachment yet. I've been slain in the spirit twiceish so I can speak from experience. Thomas Dubay is also not an advocate of the Charismatic movement so I doubt he'd agree that slain in the spirit is anything like contemplation.

Gotta get back to work now!
God bless,
Marcus

[Ora et Labora]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1351967' date='Aug 7 2007, 11:27 AM']I really have to encourage meditative prayer. The rosary is a meditative prayer and Mary our Mother is the greatest advocate of it! Even the Divine Mercy Chaplet is meditative prayer, while praying vocally, we are to meditate on the passion of Christ. Google Lectio Divina, I believe it was started by St. Benedict about 1500 years ago. The problem with only praying vocal prayers is it makes us too loud with God as some say. When we're busy doing all the talking, when do we have time to listen? In meditative prayer we do the listening. We listen to the Word of God, and then we let God tell us what it means for us, how it can change us, and what steps we need to do to grow in holiness. One thing about meditative prayer that I'll tell you up front is that often times people experience what is called spiritual dryness in meditative prayer. This is when they have a hard time meditating. Don't stop! You may not feel like your going anywhere with it, but God is giving your soul great graces! This has been told to us by the saints.

I think with the Charismatic Movement when it comes to spiritual dryness, many get lost, confused, or think that they are doing something wrong. This is becuase it is so based on emotion and feeling, when truly prayer is based on love and commitment.

God bless,
Marcus[/quote]

Oh, I see. Yes, I do that. I think I was confused on Meditative prayer...yes! It is very important to our Faith...I think that's kind of what I said earlier...about the silence and how it is so important.


[quote name='scardella' post='1351970' date='Aug 7 2007, 11:34 AM']Well, all the old ladies (and men) at the prayer meetings I've gone to around here would disagree. I'd say about half of them have gray hair, and a number of them produced the baby boomers. Many have been involved with the Charismatic movement for 20+ years.

As a final note, charismatic prayer is inherently communal prayer. It cannot and should not be the entirety of one's spiritual life. It does not replace mass attendance, nor personal prayer. I want people to be clear on this. It is a devotion and not necessary to the faith, but it is very helpful for some people. In the same way, strictly speaking, the rosary is not necessary to the faith (I mean, we did without it for over a thousand years) however beneficial it is to people.[/quote]

I think we ARE clear that it doesn't replace anything. I don't think that we were ever not clear on that!

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='scardella' post='1351970' date='Aug 7 2007, 11:34 AM']...
As a final note, charismatic prayer is inherently communal prayer. It cannot and should not be the entirety of one's spiritual life. It does not replace mass attendance, nor personal prayer. I want people to be clear on this. It is a devotion and not necessary to the faith, but it is very helpful for some people. In the same way, strictly speaking, the rosary is not necessary to the faith (I mean, we did without it for over a thousand years) however beneficial it is to people.[/quote]
Yeah, but we didn't do without Mary...

[Ora et Labora]

that's right!

[LouisvilleFan]

Thanks Marcus and scardella for explaining meditative and contemplative prayer more. Contemplative prayer sounds like it isn't something that most people experience... honestly, I'm not sure if I would want to. Of course, my faith probably isn't strong enough to endure a dark night of the soul or other hardships... it it ever developed to that stage, I suppose I would think differently.

Lectio Divina is a great opportunity to introduce Protestants to Catholicism. I used to do basically the same thing as a Protestant in some of my Scripture reading... never knew that it was also an old Catholic devotion.

[curtins]

excuse my ignorance, but what is charismatics?

[Maggyie]

[quote]excuse my ignorance, but what is charismatics?[/quote]

Overly-simple explanation:

Have you ever seen a TV preacher who prays over people and claims to heal them, makes them fall over or faint? Usually there are crowd shots of happy people jumping up and down or swaying with their hands in the air? Lots of upbeat music?

That is sort of what the Catholic Charismatic Renewal looks like. Except that the people are in communion with the Pope.

EDIT: I just realized you might be speaking about the "charism" part of Charismatic. A charism is basically a gift from God, and everybody has different ones... Paul speaks about them.... some have the power to heal, some the power to prophesy etc. etc. The ones that are closely associated with the Charismatic movement are speaking in tongues, healing, being "slain in the spirit" etc. But you probably have your own charism in terms of your ability to lead, to comfort others, or in terms of your prayer life

Edited August 8, 2007 by Maggie

[Slappo]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1352540' date='Aug 7 2007, 07:49 PM']Thanks Marcus and scardella for explaining meditative and contemplative prayer more. Contemplative prayer sounds like it isn't something that most people experience... honestly, I'm not sure if I would want to. Of course, my faith probably isn't strong enough to endure a dark night of the soul or other hardships... it it ever developed to that stage, I suppose I would think differently.

Lectio Divina is a great opportunity to introduce Protestants to Catholicism. I used to do basically the same thing as a Protestant in some of my Scripture reading... never knew that it was also an old Catholic devotion. [/quote]

Not wanting to reach contemplation would be like not wanting to become holier than a certain point! Contemplation being a "knowing loving awarness of God", how could you not want it! To just sit knowing and loving God, is that not what heaven will be but to a greater level?

The Dark Night of the Soul and Dark Night of the Spirit are both intimidating things in a certain sense, but God will not call us into those nights until our soul is ready for them. A great saint (forget which one) one day came to the conclusion that he knew he would go to hell (he truly believed this with all of his heart), and he laid in bed for days until finally he gets up and says well, since I can't love God after I die, I'll love him as much as I can until then. After that he went into great ecstasy. Even the Dark Nights are only meant for our spiritual growth, and spiritual dryness can be one of the most beneficial things for our spiritual life.

Maybe a thread should be started on contemplative prayer?

God bless,
Marcus

[rjzaar]

I have really enjoyed the discussion so far and you have made some important points that I agree with, though I would like to share some clarifications.

The charismatic gifts are clearly expressed in the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium (para 4 I think) which means it IS Catholic. You would have to reject the Magisterium to reject the Charismatic Renewal.

Fr. Killian MacDonald researched the early Church documents on the Charismatic Renewal and discovered many references to practices that are exactly the same as those experienced today. The Acts of the Apostles have many references to charismatic experiences.

There are many Catholic Charismatics in important positions in the Church. Fr. Cantalamessa is the papal preacher (there are many articles written by him on zenit) who is Charismatic. We have 2 Bishops and many priests in my state who are Charismatic.

Contemplation can be a positive experience (called consolation) or empty/ugly/dry experience (called desolation). Generally in the early experience it starts as a consolation - this is similar to the 'warmth' felt by charismatics. The 'infused' contemplation that mystics experience will go through the dark night of the senses and then eventually the dark night of the soul (a la St. John of the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila). If you really want a detailed description of all this TAN has reprinted 'The Spiritual Life' by Adolphe Tanqueray which is ( I believe) the deepest and clearest text on each of the stages.

I think there is a connection between the 'prayer of quiet' and the Charismatic experience. I believe the gift of tongues leads the person gently into contemplation. Being 'slain in the spirit' appears to me to be a deeper gift of contemplation. So I conclude that God is giving the mystical gifts to mere beginners in the spiritual life. Like taking the pay packet of an executive and throwing it to children. It is then for the children to work on their spiritual life to achieve the holiness that matches the gifts given. Because of free will, this does not happen always and so the gifts are easily abused. People do not progress into lives of giving and loving, of faithfulness to the magisterium, of evangelical zeal. They can become complacent and fall in love with the gift rather than the giver of the gift. These incredible gifts of love are meant to draw us closer to God in service to His Church.

There are many signs of success, but also failure. The Charismatic Community is still on a journey (as we all are). These gifts are from God and so will always be mysterious, we will never fully understand them. So to box them is to box God and the Holy Spirit. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is not a good idea. That does not mean we can't discern them. We must. They are at our service not the other way around.

The real question is one of discernment.

The charismatic movement is a great opportunity for ecumenism with the pentecostals. To use the charismatic gifts properly, will lead many pentecostals to join the Church.

The reason to be open to the gifts is to be like Mary, 'let it be done to me according to your word'. Be open the Spouse of the Holy Spirit to lead you to these gifts of God. Mary was there at Pentecost, these gifts are as of a new pentecost. At Mary's greeting John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Mary, I pray to you, to guide each person who reads this to clearly discern the Holy Spirit's movement and to be open like you to God in all things. Holy Spirit enkindle the fire of your love in us and equip us with all the gifts you wish to give us to be your labourers in your vineyard, in Jesus name, Amen.

[Ora et Labora]

So, your saying we HAVE to practice Charismatic use?? Sorry, that's what it sounds like when you said Mary was open to gifts... we don't HAVE to be Charismatic. It really does depend on the person!

I apologize if I'm confused.

[scardella]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1352079' date='Aug 7 2007, 02:14 PM']I have to disagree that being slain in the spirit is the onset of contemplative prayer.[/quote]

BTW, I didn't say that it was always or even most of the time. I do think that God can use the Charismatic gifts to engender contemplative prayer. Being slain in the spirit CAN be the onset of a time of contemplative prayer.

God is the one who initiates contemplative prayer. Conversely, it is not initiated by the person, but he can resist or reject it. It is more a communion than communication. It can and does take place without interacting directly with the mind. It sometimes breaks one's awareness from "the real world." I've seen very similar effects in SOME of my experiences with being slain in the spirit and with others. However, I've also seen it faked and I've also had lesser experiences with it.

In particular, I was reacting against you claiming that the Charismatic movement had no spiritual depth to it.

On a side note, however, even if its only function was to crack through the hardness of people's hearts and open them to the truth and wonder of the Church, wouldn't that make it legitimate in and of itself?

[quote]So, your saying we HAVE to practice Charismatic use?? Sorry, that's what it sounds like when you said Mary was open to gifts... we don't HAVE to be Charismatic. It really does depend on the person![/quote]

In one sense, yes, but in another sense, no. Praise and worship, prayer tongues, etc. (the exterior trappings) are not necessary by any means. In the sense of being a witness, building up the Body of Christ, being led by the Holy Spirit in our lives, being open to any spiritual gifts that we may have (whether tagged as charismatic or not), and having a real relationship with Jesus Christ, yes, it is absolutely necessary to be charismatic.

For one "non-Charismatic" but actually charismatic in truth instance, you could certainly say that Dominicans are charismatic in that they practice the charism of preaching the Gospel.

Edited August 8, 2007 by scardella

[Justin86]

[quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1350119' date='Aug 5 2007, 08:41 PM']Give me a C, give me an H, give me an AR - I - TY...

Personal comments aren't going to help us come anywhere, I think.[/quote]
If you were directing the comment to me, Christian Charity is exactly what I was trying to show our friend Benedict.

Benedict was showed a Papal document excommunicating Lefebvre and others of the SSPX movement, and his response was to spin a Bible verse to favor his view. How is that not Protestant? I was trying to give Benedict a wake up call. He is [b]protest[/b]ing Rome. He needs to see what is right in front of his face since not being able to do that is definitely his problem.

Saying its uncharitable to call a spade a spade is ridiculous when Our Lord frequently uses tough-love to convert souls. Look at St. Paul. Did the Lord appear to him skipping along in field of daises, or did he bust him upside the head and off his horse? Christian charity doesn't mean getting all warm and fuzzy. If you think it does you will have much trouble understanding how God works.

Oh, and if you think I was mean-spirited with Benedict, you should see how I treat myself when I'm taking a look at my own sins and transgressions against the Lord.

[quote]And, the Pope simply can not change what Pius V declared as the Mass. Read his document and see that the Mass can not be changed.[/quote]
The Pope most certainly can change it. No Pope can limit the authority of the Popes coming after him. That means a Pope can't make changes to the Mass, and then say no other Pope can do that.

Pius V also never said the Mass couldn't be changed after him, anyway. He only highly advised against it. Please re-read the document.

[Slappo]

Scardella,

In speaking of the depth of the Charismatic movement I wasn't saying that it had no depth, but compared to the depth of prayer we are CALLED to reach (the divine union) it has no depth. Really my point in that was you can't stop at praise and worship, praying in tongues, and slain in the spirit. We must go much further than this. Sorry if that confused you. It would be like comparing praise and worship to the Holy Mass, obviously mass is incredibly more powerful no matter how good the praise and worship is. The depth of contemplative prayer and mysticism is incredibly more than that of the Charismatic movement. Honestly, the Charismatic movement changed my life and I would not be the Catholic I am today without it. To be honest a second time, with the knowledge and understanding I've come to of prayer from reading the lives of the saints, I think I need to be moving past the charismatic movement and instead of spending my time in praise and worship, spend it in adoration practicing meditation.

I think the Charismatic movement is a good go between, it is amazing for people just getting off the rocks, and it leads one to deeper prayer, but it is not deeper prayer in and of itself. It leads one into meditation, and can possibly open one up to contemplative graces, but charismatic prayer is not contemplative in and of itself. We are actually instructed by the Saints to pray less vocal prayer when we reach contemplation, and instead leave our prayer time more open to the contemplative graces God desires to give us. Charismatic prayer is *mainly* vocal prayer, and I do have to agree that it does definitely involve some meditative prayer (repeating the name of Jesus over and over, or the words "Jesus I love you" could definitely be meditative), but very rarely would one be open to recieveing contemplative graces while participating in Charismatic prayer. Later stages of contemplation are almost purely contemplation and very little vocal or meditative prayer.

St. Teresa talks to her nuns about how even the Liturgy of the Hours can lead them into contemplation, and so in theory praise and worship could lead someone to contemplation, but I don't think that it would be the desired way to be open to the graces of contemplation. I can't speak too much from experience on contemplation because I don't think I have entered into contemplative graces. So possibly I'm wrong, but from the writings of the saints I would think I'm pretty close.

God bless,
Marcus