Charismatic Movement

[Ora et Labora]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1354041' date='Aug 9 2007, 02:29 PM']What kind of communal prayer do you think we "need"... obviously hermits don't NEED communal prayer, St. Benedict when he ran off into a cave did not NEED communal prayer. I have very little communal prayer, and even when I'm praying in a community... it is a couple of friends and I that go to the chapel and pray silent meditation, maybe a group rosary. Of course I go to mass which is in a community... but other than that I have really almost no "communal prayer". Prayer is not about me, my next door neighbor, and God... prayer is about me and God. I don't understand where you get this idea of a need for communal prayer. Is it a good thing to pray with your community? Yes, of course! Is it necessary for advancement in the spiritual life? No... not at all.[/quote]



I agree.

[scardella]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1354041' date='Aug 9 2007, 02:29 PM']What kind of communal prayer do you think we "need"... obviously hermits don't NEED communal prayer, St. Benedict when he ran off into a cave did not NEED communal prayer. I have very little communal prayer, and even when I'm praying in a community... it is a couple of friends and I that go to the chapel and pray silent meditation, maybe a group rosary. Of course I go to mass which is in a community... but other than that I have really almost no "communal prayer". Prayer is not about me, my next door neighbor, and God... prayer is about me and God. I don't understand where you get this idea of a need for communal prayer. Is it a good thing to pray with your community? Yes, of course! Is it necessary for advancement in the spiritual life? No... not at all.[/quote]

BTW, I'm certainly including things like spiritual direction, catechesis, etc. in my understanding of communal spiritual activities. It may not be prayer [i]per se[/i] but it is wholly bound up in your spiritual life.

Paraphrasing because I'm not bothering to look it up...
- The greatest commandment: love God with all your heart, all your mind and all your strength. The second is this: love your neighbor as yourself.
- They will know we are Christians by our love for one another.
- Preach the Gospel to the ends of the earth and baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
- We are one body in Christ. (plus the whole analogy that Paul uses)
- If you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, first go and reconcile with your brother, then go offer your gift.
- If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.
- It is not good for man to be alone.

Even hermits come down from their hermitage every once in a while. (Do they even still have hermits?) It is IMPOSSIBLE to live in this vacuum where only you and God exists. Jesus spent time both alone in prayer and with his disciples. Your vocation may call you to emphasize one side or the other, but both must be fulfilled to some degree. It is far too easy to rationalize things when you don't have other people to tell you about the speck (or the beam) in your eye.

Edited August 9, 2007 by scardella

[Seven77]

[quote]2664 There is no other way of Christian prayer than Christ. Whether our prayer is communal or personal, vocal or interior, it has access to the Father only if we pray "in the name" of Jesus. The sacred humanity of Jesus is therefore the way by which the Holy Spirit teaches us to pray to God our Father.[/quote]

Pope Benedict XVI has voiced support of communal prayer meetings. Families pray communally.

We all need to beware of opposing legitimate provisions of Mother Church.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Seven77' post='1354278' date='Aug 9 2007, 03:06 PM']Pope Benedict XVI has voiced support of communal prayer meetings. Families pray communally.

We all need to beware of opposing legitimate provisions of Mother Church.[/quote]


Whoa Whoa slow down there... I NEVER said I was opposed to communal prayer! I'm simply making the argument that it is not necessary for advancement spiritually, and adding that in late stages of spiritual growth (I.E contemplation) private personal prayer is better for ones own advancement in the spiritual life.

Okay, spiritual direction is not prayer, neither is catechesis, therefore they don't fit into the communal prayer category. Still being on the topic of the Charismatic renewal, we have had spiritual directors for centuries, we have had catechesis for centuries, we have had the charismatic renewal for 40 years. Spiritaul directors have been seen as highly beneficial for ages, catechesis is necessary to know God.

As for what Pope Benedict said about praying with families, yes it is a very good thing! Pray a rosary every night, and let each family member offer petitions. That is amazingly good for the spiritual growth of the family as a whole, especially to root the children in the faith. I don't quite see what we are arguing about. The other thing is how is a hermit going to pray a rosary with his family when he is in the mountains, a cloistered nun (who would have a schedule that would involve communal prayer mostly including LOHT and Holy Mass only, possibly a group rosary).

As for hermits, yes they are still out there. Fr. Corapi is even a hermit. He says in one of his talks to seminarians that for every hour he preaches, he spends 100 hours in personal prayer. There was a hermit deacon that came up to my city for the ordination of one of our diocesan priests.

Here's a good question that I just thought of... what about those religious orders that used to/still do take vows of silence? What kind of communal prayer do you expect from them? Besides Holy Mass I doubt they really speak much.

The whole point I'm trying to make is there is nothing that requires (outside of Holy Mass and LOHT as stated earlier) us to pray communally, and there is nothing that says that there is no advancement without communal prayer. Balance is good... but how do you weigh balance? How do you weigh contemplative graces with vocal prayer?

[scardella]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1355151' date='Aug 10 2007, 11:21 AM']Whoa Whoa slow down there... I NEVER said I was opposed to communal prayer! I'm simply making the argument that it is not necessary for advancement spiritually, and adding that in late stages of spiritual growth (I.E contemplation) private personal prayer is better for ones own advancement in the spiritual life.[/quote]

It may be the primary engine of advancement in your spiritual life at that point, but the fact that the Church [b]requires[/b] Mass attendance and LOTH (for many priests/religious/nuns) is itself a witness to the [b]necessity[/b] of communal prayer, whether you're "huh, I'm Catholic?" or "I clean the upper portion of the chapel by levitating in prayerful ecstasies".

As for spiritual direction and catechesis, they're both spiritual activities that bear directly upon your prayer life and spiritual advancement. I think it's pretty relevant.

[quote]Okay, spiritual direction is not prayer, neither is catechesis, therefore they don't fit into the communal prayer category. Still being on the topic of the Charismatic renewal, we have had spiritual directors for centuries, we have had catechesis for centuries, we have had the charismatic renewal for 40 years. Spiritaul directors have been seen as highly beneficial for ages, catechesis is necessary to know God.

As for what Pope Benedict said about praying with families, yes it is a very good thing! Pray a rosary every night, and let each family member offer petitions. That is amazingly good for the spiritual growth of the family as a whole, especially to root the children in the faith. I don't quite see what we are arguing about. The other thing is how is a hermit going to pray a rosary with his family when he is in the mountains, a cloistered nun (who would have a schedule that would involve communal prayer mostly including LOHT and Holy Mass only, possibly a group rosary).[/quote]

So...If I'm incredibly holy (divine union) and happen to be married (since all are called to divine union) I should not pray with my family because it's not going to help myself grow spiritually as much?

[quote]As for hermits, yes they are still out there. Fr. Corapi is even a hermit. He says in one of his talks to seminarians that for every hour he preaches, he spends 100 hours in personal prayer. There was a hermit deacon that came up to my city for the ordination of one of our diocesan priests.

Here's a good question that I just thought of... what about those religious orders that used to/still do take vows of silence? What kind of communal prayer do you expect from them? Besides Holy Mass I doubt they really speak much.

The whole point I'm trying to make is there is nothing that requires (outside of Holy Mass and LOHT as stated earlier) us to pray communally, and there is nothing that says that there is no advancement without communal prayer. Balance is good... but how do you weigh balance? How do you weigh contemplative graces with vocal prayer?[/quote]

I've never excluded Mass and LOTH from my point. All I said was that everyone needs both personal prayer and corporate prayer. Some need a different balance of prayer (between individual and corporate prayer) than you.

My issue is that you seem to imply that need for corporate prayer somehow decreases as you get holier. I have not experienced that in my own life. I know people who've been attending charismatic prayer meetings for 20+ years, who outwardly radiate holiness, and have not felt the need or desire to abandon it because private prayer is all they need.

As an aside, when you get to that level of holiness, I would imagine that corporate prayer would become more about self-donation than receiving. You pour yourself out as an offering for the holiness of the others, and your own self/growth/needs often get put on the back-burner. It wouldn't change the fact that you're still praying in the corporate prayer, but the motivation would certainly be purer (and, thus, the merit be more as well).

BTW, as a personal note, when I was on my "contemplative prayer is everything I should worry about" phase, I almost started thinking like this... then I realized I was becoming scrupulous about it and underestimating the benefits of communal prayer. I got better when I stopped worrying about "what mansion am I in?" etc.

Oh, another thing, are you in the late stages of spiritual growth yet?

[Slappo]

[quote name='scardella' post='1355282' date='Aug 10 2007, 11:30 AM']It may be the primary engine of advancement in your spiritual life at that point, but the fact that the Church [b]requires[/b] Mass attendance and LOTH (for many priests/religious/nuns) is itself a witness to the [b]necessity[/b] of communal prayer, whether you're "huh, I'm Catholic?" or "I clean the upper portion of the chapel by levitating in prayerful ecstasies".[/quote]

How cool would that be.. cleaning the ceiling of the chapel by levitating? I can see it now, "New insites on how Michael Angel painted the Cistine (sp) chapel!"

[quote name='scardella' post='1355282' date='Aug 10 2007, 11:30 AM']So...If I'm incredibly holy (divine union) and happen to be married (since all are called to divine union) I should not pray with my family because it's not going to help myself grow spiritually as much?[/quote]

I would say if you were a parent, that you even had an obligation to pray with your family. To not do so would not be raising your children in the faith. Please don't take my words to extremes.

[quote name='scardella' post='1355282' date='Aug 10 2007, 11:30 AM']I've never excluded Mass and LOTH from my point. All I said was that everyone needs both personal prayer and corporate prayer. Some need a different balance of prayer (between individual and corporate prayer) than you.

My issue is that you seem to imply that need for corporate prayer somehow decreases as you get holier. I have not experienced that in my own life. I know people who've been attending charismatic prayer meetings for 20+ years, who outwardly radiate holiness, and have not felt the need or desire to abandon it because private prayer is all they need.[/quote]

There is a difference between what we need and what we do. If I were in the late stages of contemplation I would not go seeking out prayer groups, but if someone invited me to one and I had the time to make it, I might go, or even start going regularly, but not because I need to. I would never put a prayer group before personal prayer if I were in late stages of contemplation. I would sacrifice going to prayer groups to make sure that I got personal prayer time if I was too busy. The idea that I am trying to convey is that personal prayer time, private meditation and later contemplation is a necessity, one cannot advance without it. One can advance without prayer groups (again as a given outside LOTH and Mass). In later stages of spiritual growth, personal prayer is the MAIN way one advances (outside Mass). Is there growth from communal prayer? Of course, every prayer we pray out of love for God can be spiritually beneficial.

[quote name='scardella' post='1355282' date='Aug 10 2007, 11:30 AM']As an aside, when you get to that level of holiness, I would imagine that corporate prayer would become more about self-donation than receiving. You pour yourself out as an offering for the holiness of the others, and your own self/growth/needs often get put on the back-burner. It wouldn't change the fact that you're still praying in the corporate prayer, but the motivation would certainly be purer (and, thus, the merit be more as well).[/quote]

Agreed

[quote name='scardella' post='1355282' date='Aug 10 2007, 11:30 AM']BTW, as a personal note, when I was on my "contemplative prayer is everything I should worry about" phase, I almost started thinking like this... then I realized I was becoming scrupulous about it and underestimating the benefits of communal prayer. I got better when I stopped worrying about "what mansion am I in?" etc.

Oh, another thing, are you in the late stages of spiritual growth yet?[/quote]

No I'm not in late stages of spiritual growth, as stated above. I am mainly going off of what I have read from holy priests and saints of the Church. I have personally found a huge difference in how much I grow spiritually between group prayer and private prayer. I have also found that I would not have had any desire or patience for personal prayer if I didn't first develop a prayer life through community.

4 or so months ago I was all worried about what mansion I was in etc... and now I don't really think about it too much. I was praying for contemplative graces.. and now I just try to detach myself from things of the world when I notice they are becoming a prominent distraction from God. I know where you are coming from with the scrupulosity though, and I don't think I'm there (anymore). I stopped focussing my life around striving to be open to contemplative graces and instead am focusing on developing a strong prayer life with frequent reception of the sacraments, growing in love for family etc... which I think would probably all be necessary to grow spiritually anyways!

[Slappo]

Err... Michael Angel... haha .. Michael Angelo.. *sigh*

[VeniteAdoremus]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1355381' date='Aug 11 2007, 12:26 AM']Err... Michael Angel... haha .. Michael Angelo.. *sigh*[/quote]

Michelangelo - it's his first name. (Sorry - by all means do get back on topic after this )

[scardella]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1355379' date='Aug 10 2007, 05:26 PM']How cool would that be.. cleaning the ceiling of the chapel by levitating? I can see it now, "New insites on how Michael Angel painted the Cistine (sp) chapel!" [/quote]

[url="http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintj04.htm"]St. Joseph of Cupertino[/url]

[quote]There is a difference between what we need and what we do. If I were in the late stages of contemplation I would not go seeking out prayer groups, but if someone invited me to one and I had the time to make it, I might go, or even start going regularly, but not because I need to. I would never put a prayer group before personal prayer if I were in late stages of contemplation. I would sacrifice going to prayer groups to make sure that I got personal prayer time if I was too busy. The idea that I am trying to convey is that personal prayer time, private meditation and later contemplation is a necessity, one cannot advance without it. One can advance without prayer groups (again as a given outside LOTH and Mass). In later stages of spiritual growth, personal prayer is the MAIN way one advances (outside Mass). Is there growth from communal prayer? Of course, every prayer we pray out of love for God can be spiritually beneficial.[/quote]

Strictly speaking, the vast majority of prayer is not "necessary." I think the real question is "does corporate prayer cease to serve a purpose once someone has reached advanced spiritual growth?" And the answer to that, I believe, is a resounding no.

I'd like to offer two observations. First for the most part, (unless you're caught up in ecstasies) when you grow to a new type of prayer, it seems more that it is added to the prayer you're already praying. For instance, when you first start praying the rosary, it is merely vocal prayer. However, as you begin to delve into the mysteries, you [b]add[/b] the meditative part. You do not cease the vocal part. In essence, it would no longer truly be a rosary if it did not include the vocal (Hail Marys, Our Fathers, etc.) prayers which define the structure of the rosary. In the same way most of the time, contemplative prayer augments the prayer that you're already praying. Second, each type of prayer (vocal, meditative, contemplative) corresponds to a portion of your being. Vocal regards the body, meditative regards the mind and contemplative regards the soul itself. (I do know that the human person is a soul-body union and that the intellect is some contingent of one, the other or the union, but at the same time, the mind is immaterial but is not the soul, per se.) If that conjecture is true, then, to be praying with your whole person, you need to use all three to pray, the lower along with the higher.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='rjzaar' post='1352716' date='Aug 8 2007, 05:22 AM']I have really enjoyed the discussion so far and you have made some important points that I agree with, though I would like to share some clarifications.

The charismatic gifts are clearly expressed in the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium (para 4 I think) which means it IS Catholic. You would have to reject the Magisterium to reject the Charismatic Renewal.

Fr. Killian MacDonald researched the early Church documents on the Charismatic Renewal and discovered many references to practices that are exactly the same as those experienced today. The Acts of the Apostles have many references to charismatic experiences.

There are many Catholic Charismatics in important positions in the Church. Fr. Cantalamessa is the papal preacher (there are many articles written by him on zenit) who is Charismatic. We have 2 Bishops and many priests in my state who are Charismatic.

Contemplation can be a positive experience (called consolation) or empty/ugly/dry experience (called desolation). Generally in the early experience it starts as a consolation - this is similar to the 'warmth' felt by charismatics. The 'infused' contemplation that mystics experience will go through the dark night of the senses and then eventually the dark night of the soul (a la St. John of the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila). If you really want a detailed description of all this TAN has reprinted 'The Spiritual Life' by Adolphe Tanqueray which is ( I believe) the deepest and clearest text on each of the stages.

I think there is a connection between the 'prayer of quiet' and the Charismatic experience. I believe the gift of tongues leads the person gently into contemplation. Being 'slain in the spirit' appears to me to be a deeper gift of contemplation. So I conclude that God is giving the mystical gifts to mere beginners in the spiritual life. Like taking the pay packet of an executive and throwing it to children. It is then for the children to work on their spiritual life to achieve the holiness that matches the gifts given. Because of free will, this does not happen always and so the gifts are easily abused. People do not progress into lives of giving and loving, of faithfulness to the magisterium, of evangelical zeal. They can become complacent and fall in love with the gift rather than the giver of the gift. These incredible gifts of love are meant to draw us closer to God in service to His Church.

There are many signs of success, but also failure. The Charismatic Community is still on a journey (as we all are). These gifts are from God and so will always be mysterious, we will never fully understand them. So to box them is to box God and the Holy Spirit. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is not a good idea. That does not mean we can't discern them. We must. They are at our service not the other way around.

The real question is one of discernment.

The charismatic movement is a great opportunity for ecumenism with the pentecostals. To use the charismatic gifts properly, will lead many pentecostals to join the Church.

The reason to be open to the gifts is to be like Mary, 'let it be done to me according to your word'. Be open the Spouse of the Holy Spirit to lead you to these gifts of God. Mary was there at Pentecost, these gifts are as of a new pentecost. At Mary's greeting John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Mary, I pray to you, to guide each person who reads this to clearly discern the Holy Spirit's movement and to be open like you to God in all things. Holy Spirit enkindle the fire of your love in us and equip us with all the gifts you wish to give us to be your labourers in your vineyard, in Jesus name, Amen.[/quote]

i think this was the best post so far!

if Raneiro Cantalamessa is good enough to be the preacher to this pope and the last, then he's good enough for me! check out his stuff... and Killian McDonnell's... and Cardinal Suenen's...

CCC 2003: "Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in teh salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are [i][/i]sacramental graces,[i][/i] gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore [i][/i]special graces,[i][/i] also called [i][/i]charisms[i][/i] after the Greek terms used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit..."

sounds to me like we need both kinds of grace. Come, Holy Spirit.

[Seven77]

Ralph Martin was on the Journey Home and what a great show! He spoke about the Contemplative dimension of Pentecost (among other dimensions).

Encores 1am tonight and 10am Tuesday (Aug. 14).

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Ora et Labora' post='1353762' date='Aug 9 2007, 10:11 AM']I meant, by practically re-doing it...and as you can see but misunderstood, I ASKED about that! I didn't pretend to know what I was talking about... hence the:
you were singing Missa Secunda in that mass!! That is really...weird.
...[/quote]
I don't think we knew it was a Charismatic mass when we were invited by the Evangelisation office to sing for it... we were in for a surprise, though.


As for this fuss about communal vs personal prayer: God is a community. God is a Trinity. The Father Loves the Son unconditionally and fully, and thus there is the Holy Spirit, the third person, outpouring from the love (please rebuke me if I'm not explaining this right). Communal prayer is VERY important for spiritual growth because the Trinity is a community. We must develop communal prayer because it is innate. We're created in the image and likeness of God. My two cents. I guess I could expand more... but I'll leave it at that... for now.

Pax

[Slappo]

[quote name='scardella' post='1358045' date='Aug 13 2007, 07:25 AM'][url="http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintj04.htm"]St. Joseph of Cupertino[/url]
Strictly speaking, the vast majority of prayer is not "necessary." I think the real question is "does corporate prayer cease to serve a purpose once someone has reached advanced spiritual growth?" And the answer to that, I believe, is a resounding no.[/quote]

I don't think anyone has ever said that corporate prayer ceases to serve a purpose

[quote name='scardella' post='1358045' date='Aug 13 2007, 07:25 AM']I'd like to offer two observations. First for the most part, (unless you're caught up in ecstasies) when you grow to a new type of prayer, it seems more that it is added to the prayer you're already praying. For instance, when you first start praying the rosary, it is merely vocal prayer. However, as you begin to delve into the mysteries, you [b]add[/b] the meditative part. You do not cease the vocal part. In essence, it would no longer truly be a rosary if it did not include the vocal (Hail Marys, Our Fathers, etc.) prayers which define the structure of the rosary. In the same way most of the time, contemplative prayer augments the prayer that you're already praying. Second, each type of prayer (vocal, meditative, contemplative) corresponds to a portion of your being. Vocal regards the body, meditative regards the mind and contemplative regards the soul itself. (I do know that the human person is a soul-body union and that the intellect is some contingent of one, the other or the union, but at the same time, the mind is immaterial but is not the soul, per se.) If that conjecture is true, then, to be praying with your whole person, you need to use all three to pray, the lower along with the higher.[/quote]

Sure, the rosary, divine mercy chaplet, Stations of the Cross, and others all are vocal and meditative. But which is more important, the vocal aspect or the meditative? Which pertains more to spiritual growth, the mysteries of the rosary, or the hail mary's? It is obvious that it is the mysteries. The focus of the rosary and divine mercy chaplet are not vocal, but meditative. Also, you say you add the meditative part, I would say that it is not added, but entered into. The vocal prayer leads you to enter into meditation, and meditation likewise leads you to enter into contemplation, but which is the highest of the prayers? Contemplation. It is the end goal of all prayer. The PURPOSE of vocal prayer is to eventually lead to contemplation, the PURPOSE of meditation is to lead to contemplation. If the purpose of vocal prayer is contemplation, then why would one ever choose vocal prayer over contemplation. Likewise, if the purpose of meditation is to lead into contemplation, then why would one ever choose meditation over contemplation. Fire Within specifically says that we cannot choose to enter in to contemplation, but it also stresses that we should stay disposed and quiet our soul to let God bring us into Him. Vocal prayer is not a quieting of the soul.

As for praying with your whole person... the mass is vocal, LOTH is vocal, a rosary is vocal and meditative... so now you have vocal, as well as meditative, and then the norm for someone advanced in the spiritual life will be contemplative. You are praying with your whole body... but the focus has changed from physical to mind, and then from mind to soul. That is what is called growth.

[scardella]

I think the overall issue that you seem to be having is that you sound like you want to throw away the foundations when you get to the summit. Obviously, throwing away the foundations of something dooms the heights as well. Vocal prayer is the foundation. Meditation is the middle. Contemplation is the summit. You can't have a summit without a foundation. That's part of the whole reason for using a structure as a metaphor.

[quote name='Slappo' post='1358696' date='Aug 14 2007, 12:33 PM']I don't think anyone has ever said that corporate prayer ceases to serve a purpose
Sure, the rosary, divine mercy chaplet, Stations of the Cross, and others all are vocal and meditative. But which is more important, the vocal aspect or the meditative? Which pertains more to spiritual growth, the mysteries of the rosary, or the hail mary's? It is obvious that it is the mysteries. The focus of the rosary and divine mercy chaplet are not vocal, but meditative.[/quote]

[b]It ceases to be a rosary or divine mercy chaplet without the vocal portion.[/b] It would then become meditation alone. There's an important lesson in the fact that the vocal portion does not cease when the meditative begins. The whole prayer is beneficial to spiritual growth, vocal and meditative. There is more merit in meditating on the mysteries while praying the rosary, but I cannot say that the merit is fundamentally in the meditation of the mysteries.

[quote]Also, you say you add the meditative part, I would say that it is not added, but entered into. The vocal prayer leads you to enter into meditation, and meditation likewise leads you to enter into contemplation, but which is the highest of the prayers? Contemplation. It is the end goal of all prayer. The PURPOSE of vocal prayer is to eventually lead to contemplation, the PURPOSE of meditation is to lead to contemplation. If the purpose of vocal prayer is contemplation, then why would one ever choose vocal prayer over contemplation. Likewise, if the purpose of meditation is to lead into contemplation, then why would one ever choose meditation over contemplation. Fire Within specifically says that we cannot choose to enter in to contemplation, but it also stresses that we should stay disposed and quiet our soul to let God bring us into Him. Vocal prayer is not a quieting of the soul.[/quote]

Frankly, Fire Within isn't the be-all end-all of prayer. Plus, a quiet soul does not necessarily mean "no vocal prayer" either. Ultimately, you're looking at the situation as an either/or. That's the wrong way to look at it. You can have all three at the same time.

[quote]As for praying with your whole person... the mass is vocal, LOTH is vocal, a rosary is vocal and meditative... so now you have vocal, as well as meditative, and then the norm for someone advanced in the spiritual life will be contemplative. You are praying with your whole body... but the focus has changed from physical to mind, and then from mind to soul. That is what is called growth.[/quote]

If the Mass is vocal, then that should tell you something. The sacraments themselves require vocal prayer. That is using the body for prayer. It corresponds to our nature as humans. So long as we are humans and not pure spirit, there is need for vocal prayer. There is also need to grow into what we are capable of (meditation, contemplation) but that does not mean that we leave the others behind.

When you learn to drive, do you abandon walking? If you learn to fly, do you abandon driving? No, they all serve their purpose, and each will get you around, some faster than others, but they're all still necessary.

[gurlie4godsd]

People get way to caught up on emotions and what they think the Charismatic renewal is or what it should be. The fact is that the gifts are meant to bring us deeper in our faith and point us toward a contemplative prayer life. The Charismatic renewal is just another way to get there...except people tend to see the gifts as a ends instead of a means to deeper prayer...this is where the problems are. A lot of it I think is that people arguing aboout things they don't understand and when that happens alot of the time they will say it must be wrong if it looks wierd...imagine what the early church looked like to everyone else...different doesn't mean bad...Charismatic or traditional if thats even the right word....we are all Catholic...ONE holy catholic church...so lets be that and stop fighting over things that don't matter....if we are divided amongst ourselves we won't stand..."love love will keep us together"...lol that song just ran through my head.

God Bless

[Slappo]

[quote name='gurlie4godsd' post='1358784' date='Aug 14 2007, 12:35 PM']The fact is that the gifts are meant to bring us deeper in our faith and point us toward a contemplative prayer life. The Charismatic renewal is just another way to get there...except people tend to see the gifts as a ends instead of a means to deeper prayer...this is where the problems are.[/quote]

That's all I've been saying this entire time... that the Charismatic movement isn't an end. I've never denied that it's a means. Really gurlie4god just summed up everything I've been trying to say.

I think it is pretty fruitless to continue Scardella.

[Mary-Kathryn]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1353005' date='Aug 8 2007, 04:17 PM']What, then, does it mean to be Catholic? Obviously some "Protestant" practices are acceptable, so where do we draw the line between those that are and those that aren't? What makes exercising the Charismatic gifts different from having a Bible study or holding a revival/mission?

To me, the Catholic faith enables us to do these different things, if we want, while remaining grounded in the sacramental life. I truly appreciate my Evangelical background (even hesitate to say I "converted," but it's the easiest word to use), so becoming Catholic wasn't so much an end to acting Evangelical, but the fulfillment of those things.
On the flip side of that, there were a lot of ex-Catholics at my old Baptist church and some of them believed there was no life in the Catholic Church. They were bored and didn't receive good instruction from either their parents, Catholic schools, or priests, and so they left. Can't win either way.[/quote]

My apologies, real life has kept me in different directions and I neglected this thread:

What does it mean to be Catholic? I am still "becoming" and will be until the day I die. I do know this: I cannot go back to what I was [the revivals, the Southern Baptist, knowing of The Holiness, Pentacostal ways of "speaking in tongues, being slain in the spirit etc...] because for me it would be a betrayal of what I embraced when I entered The Church. I am not Holiness-Pentacostal- Southern Baptist-Fundamentalist-Catholic. I am Catholic period. You have to understand I grew up with all of that intimately and know it inside and out. Why would I want to go backwards when The Sacraments~especially The Eucharist~ gives me everything? I am happy with all God has given me. My conversion was an incredible gift. I really don't need to look back to what was. What God gave me when He placed me at the door of His Church will forever be enough~ and remember I've been a convert 18yrs. Feeling good is fleeting, Jesus is for an eternity. He is in The Blessed Sacrament quietly waiting for someone to come right now. What can be more beautiful than to sit one-on-One with Him in a quiet church? What else is needed in the hearts of Catholics to bring them joy and peace?

I hope this reflection makes me a more understandable person to you. I've enjoyed sharing our views

[jeffpugh]

I thank you for this. Everyone needs to step back and take a look at who is in the Tabernacle; taking time to sit in quietness to talk with Jesus is always awesome. Then there is His Mother... and the mass...

[scardella]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1358878' date='Aug 14 2007, 08:11 PM']That's all I've been saying this entire time... that the Charismatic movement isn't an end. I've never denied that it's a means. Really gurlie4god just summed up everything I've been trying to say.

I think it is pretty fruitless to continue Scardella.[/quote]

eh?

The ends/means issue is completely not the issue. The issue, as I see it, is that your arguments continuously point to an understanding that the vocal and meditative prayer either loses relevance or effectiveness as you gain the contemplative and I completely disagree. It is not possible to abandon vocal and meditative prayer, despite them being lesser prayer than contemplation.

Edited August 15, 2007 by scardella

[Dismas]

Well, to begin with, I am not of the Charismatic Renewal Movement, and I plan to keep it that way.

Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt your earnest love of Jesus. I have no doubt in your awe in God's presence. Even so, I have very deep reservations for the whole of the CR.

Let's get down the the business of tongues.

I don't sit well with the idea of "Angelic Tongue". Angels don't have fleshy things stuck between fleshy and bony parts that alter vibrating air into a discrete set of unique sounds that, when strung together, form words. Angels are pure spirit, and communicate spiritually.

Secondly, of the Seven Gifts, I find it to be currently the least useful and perhaps most rare spiritual gift. Certainly, it does have its uses. One such modern example would be of St. Maximilian Kolbe's trip to Japan, penniless and knowing not a single word in Japanese, in six short years establishing a friary, seminary, newspaper, and radio station. Even so, I would think that prayers for gifts would be better applied towards Faith, Prophecy, Wisdom, Knowledge, Healing and Discernment of Spirits.

Lastly, there is the legitimage Charism of Understanding of Tongues (1 Cor 12:10). It seems to have been kicked into a corner and left to gather dust. Yet how many people know and can translate those tongues, be they angelic or foreign in nature? How many have tried? If there are only those who speak and none but God who understand, how can it be known to be tongue and not just regression into babble?

I'm not asking people to throw their ideas of chocolate milk away, and I don't find anything nefarious with it, just please understand that I have very strong doubts about that form of spirituality and the direction it might lead.