Charismatic Movement

[Seven77]

Ralph Martin was on the Journey Home and what a great show! He spoke about the Contemplative dimension of Pentecost (among other dimensions).

Encores 1am tonight and 10am Tuesday (Aug. 14).

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Ora et Labora' post='1353762' date='Aug 9 2007, 10:11 AM']I meant, by practically re-doing it...and as you can see but misunderstood, I ASKED about that! I didn't pretend to know what I was talking about... hence the:
you were singing Missa Secunda in that mass!! That is really...weird.
...[/quote]
I don't think we knew it was a Charismatic mass when we were invited by the Evangelisation office to sing for it... we were in for a surprise, though.


As for this fuss about communal vs personal prayer: God is a community. God is a Trinity. The Father Loves the Son unconditionally and fully, and thus there is the Holy Spirit, the third person, outpouring from the love (please rebuke me if I'm not explaining this right). Communal prayer is VERY important for spiritual growth because the Trinity is a community. We must develop communal prayer because it is innate. We're created in the image and likeness of God. My two cents. I guess I could expand more... but I'll leave it at that... for now.

Pax

[Slappo]

[quote name='scardella' post='1358045' date='Aug 13 2007, 07:25 AM'][url="http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintj04.htm"]St. Joseph of Cupertino[/url]
Strictly speaking, the vast majority of prayer is not "necessary." I think the real question is "does corporate prayer cease to serve a purpose once someone has reached advanced spiritual growth?" And the answer to that, I believe, is a resounding no.[/quote]

I don't think anyone has ever said that corporate prayer ceases to serve a purpose

[quote name='scardella' post='1358045' date='Aug 13 2007, 07:25 AM']I'd like to offer two observations. First for the most part, (unless you're caught up in ecstasies) when you grow to a new type of prayer, it seems more that it is added to the prayer you're already praying. For instance, when you first start praying the rosary, it is merely vocal prayer. However, as you begin to delve into the mysteries, you [b]add[/b] the meditative part. You do not cease the vocal part. In essence, it would no longer truly be a rosary if it did not include the vocal (Hail Marys, Our Fathers, etc.) prayers which define the structure of the rosary. In the same way most of the time, contemplative prayer augments the prayer that you're already praying. Second, each type of prayer (vocal, meditative, contemplative) corresponds to a portion of your being. Vocal regards the body, meditative regards the mind and contemplative regards the soul itself. (I do know that the human person is a soul-body union and that the intellect is some contingent of one, the other or the union, but at the same time, the mind is immaterial but is not the soul, per se.) If that conjecture is true, then, to be praying with your whole person, you need to use all three to pray, the lower along with the higher.[/quote]

Sure, the rosary, divine mercy chaplet, Stations of the Cross, and others all are vocal and meditative. But which is more important, the vocal aspect or the meditative? Which pertains more to spiritual growth, the mysteries of the rosary, or the hail mary's? It is obvious that it is the mysteries. The focus of the rosary and divine mercy chaplet are not vocal, but meditative. Also, you say you add the meditative part, I would say that it is not added, but entered into. The vocal prayer leads you to enter into meditation, and meditation likewise leads you to enter into contemplation, but which is the highest of the prayers? Contemplation. It is the end goal of all prayer. The PURPOSE of vocal prayer is to eventually lead to contemplation, the PURPOSE of meditation is to lead to contemplation. If the purpose of vocal prayer is contemplation, then why would one ever choose vocal prayer over contemplation. Likewise, if the purpose of meditation is to lead into contemplation, then why would one ever choose meditation over contemplation. Fire Within specifically says that we cannot choose to enter in to contemplation, but it also stresses that we should stay disposed and quiet our soul to let God bring us into Him. Vocal prayer is not a quieting of the soul.

As for praying with your whole person... the mass is vocal, LOTH is vocal, a rosary is vocal and meditative... so now you have vocal, as well as meditative, and then the norm for someone advanced in the spiritual life will be contemplative. You are praying with your whole body... but the focus has changed from physical to mind, and then from mind to soul. That is what is called growth.

[scardella]

I think the overall issue that you seem to be having is that you sound like you want to throw away the foundations when you get to the summit. Obviously, throwing away the foundations of something dooms the heights as well. Vocal prayer is the foundation. Meditation is the middle. Contemplation is the summit. You can't have a summit without a foundation. That's part of the whole reason for using a structure as a metaphor.

[quote name='Slappo' post='1358696' date='Aug 14 2007, 12:33 PM']I don't think anyone has ever said that corporate prayer ceases to serve a purpose
Sure, the rosary, divine mercy chaplet, Stations of the Cross, and others all are vocal and meditative. But which is more important, the vocal aspect or the meditative? Which pertains more to spiritual growth, the mysteries of the rosary, or the hail mary's? It is obvious that it is the mysteries. The focus of the rosary and divine mercy chaplet are not vocal, but meditative.[/quote]

[b]It ceases to be a rosary or divine mercy chaplet without the vocal portion.[/b] It would then become meditation alone. There's an important lesson in the fact that the vocal portion does not cease when the meditative begins. The whole prayer is beneficial to spiritual growth, vocal and meditative. There is more merit in meditating on the mysteries while praying the rosary, but I cannot say that the merit is fundamentally in the meditation of the mysteries.

[quote]Also, you say you add the meditative part, I would say that it is not added, but entered into. The vocal prayer leads you to enter into meditation, and meditation likewise leads you to enter into contemplation, but which is the highest of the prayers? Contemplation. It is the end goal of all prayer. The PURPOSE of vocal prayer is to eventually lead to contemplation, the PURPOSE of meditation is to lead to contemplation. If the purpose of vocal prayer is contemplation, then why would one ever choose vocal prayer over contemplation. Likewise, if the purpose of meditation is to lead into contemplation, then why would one ever choose meditation over contemplation. Fire Within specifically says that we cannot choose to enter in to contemplation, but it also stresses that we should stay disposed and quiet our soul to let God bring us into Him. Vocal prayer is not a quieting of the soul.[/quote]

Frankly, Fire Within isn't the be-all end-all of prayer. Plus, a quiet soul does not necessarily mean "no vocal prayer" either. Ultimately, you're looking at the situation as an either/or. That's the wrong way to look at it. You can have all three at the same time.

[quote]As for praying with your whole person... the mass is vocal, LOTH is vocal, a rosary is vocal and meditative... so now you have vocal, as well as meditative, and then the norm for someone advanced in the spiritual life will be contemplative. You are praying with your whole body... but the focus has changed from physical to mind, and then from mind to soul. That is what is called growth.[/quote]

If the Mass is vocal, then that should tell you something. The sacraments themselves require vocal prayer. That is using the body for prayer. It corresponds to our nature as humans. So long as we are humans and not pure spirit, there is need for vocal prayer. There is also need to grow into what we are capable of (meditation, contemplation) but that does not mean that we leave the others behind.

When you learn to drive, do you abandon walking? If you learn to fly, do you abandon driving? No, they all serve their purpose, and each will get you around, some faster than others, but they're all still necessary.

[gurlie4godsd]

People get way to caught up on emotions and what they think the Charismatic renewal is or what it should be. The fact is that the gifts are meant to bring us deeper in our faith and point us toward a contemplative prayer life. The Charismatic renewal is just another way to get there...except people tend to see the gifts as a ends instead of a means to deeper prayer...this is where the problems are. A lot of it I think is that people arguing aboout things they don't understand and when that happens alot of the time they will say it must be wrong if it looks wierd...imagine what the early church looked like to everyone else...different doesn't mean bad...Charismatic or traditional if thats even the right word....we are all Catholic...ONE holy catholic church...so lets be that and stop fighting over things that don't matter....if we are divided amongst ourselves we won't stand..."love love will keep us together"...lol that song just ran through my head.

God Bless

[Slappo]

[quote name='gurlie4godsd' post='1358784' date='Aug 14 2007, 12:35 PM']The fact is that the gifts are meant to bring us deeper in our faith and point us toward a contemplative prayer life. The Charismatic renewal is just another way to get there...except people tend to see the gifts as a ends instead of a means to deeper prayer...this is where the problems are.[/quote]

That's all I've been saying this entire time... that the Charismatic movement isn't an end. I've never denied that it's a means. Really gurlie4god just summed up everything I've been trying to say.

I think it is pretty fruitless to continue Scardella.

[Mary-Kathryn]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1353005' date='Aug 8 2007, 04:17 PM']What, then, does it mean to be Catholic? Obviously some "Protestant" practices are acceptable, so where do we draw the line between those that are and those that aren't? What makes exercising the Charismatic gifts different from having a Bible study or holding a revival/mission?

To me, the Catholic faith enables us to do these different things, if we want, while remaining grounded in the sacramental life. I truly appreciate my Evangelical background (even hesitate to say I "converted," but it's the easiest word to use), so becoming Catholic wasn't so much an end to acting Evangelical, but the fulfillment of those things.
On the flip side of that, there were a lot of ex-Catholics at my old Baptist church and some of them believed there was no life in the Catholic Church. They were bored and didn't receive good instruction from either their parents, Catholic schools, or priests, and so they left. Can't win either way.[/quote]

My apologies, real life has kept me in different directions and I neglected this thread:

What does it mean to be Catholic? I am still "becoming" and will be until the day I die. I do know this: I cannot go back to what I was [the revivals, the Southern Baptist, knowing of The Holiness, Pentacostal ways of "speaking in tongues, being slain in the spirit etc...] because for me it would be a betrayal of what I embraced when I entered The Church. I am not Holiness-Pentacostal- Southern Baptist-Fundamentalist-Catholic. I am Catholic period. You have to understand I grew up with all of that intimately and know it inside and out. Why would I want to go backwards when The Sacraments~especially The Eucharist~ gives me everything? I am happy with all God has given me. My conversion was an incredible gift. I really don't need to look back to what was. What God gave me when He placed me at the door of His Church will forever be enough~ and remember I've been a convert 18yrs. Feeling good is fleeting, Jesus is for an eternity. He is in The Blessed Sacrament quietly waiting for someone to come right now. What can be more beautiful than to sit one-on-One with Him in a quiet church? What else is needed in the hearts of Catholics to bring them joy and peace?

I hope this reflection makes me a more understandable person to you. I've enjoyed sharing our views

[jeffpugh]

I thank you for this. Everyone needs to step back and take a look at who is in the Tabernacle; taking time to sit in quietness to talk with Jesus is always awesome. Then there is His Mother... and the mass...

[scardella]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1358878' date='Aug 14 2007, 08:11 PM']That's all I've been saying this entire time... that the Charismatic movement isn't an end. I've never denied that it's a means. Really gurlie4god just summed up everything I've been trying to say.

I think it is pretty fruitless to continue Scardella.[/quote]

eh?

The ends/means issue is completely not the issue. The issue, as I see it, is that your arguments continuously point to an understanding that the vocal and meditative prayer either loses relevance or effectiveness as you gain the contemplative and I completely disagree. It is not possible to abandon vocal and meditative prayer, despite them being lesser prayer than contemplation.

Edited August 15, 2007 by scardella

[Dismas]

Well, to begin with, I am not of the Charismatic Renewal Movement, and I plan to keep it that way.

Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt your earnest love of Jesus. I have no doubt in your awe in God's presence. Even so, I have very deep reservations for the whole of the CR.

Let's get down the the business of tongues.

I don't sit well with the idea of "Angelic Tongue". Angels don't have fleshy things stuck between fleshy and bony parts that alter vibrating air into a discrete set of unique sounds that, when strung together, form words. Angels are pure spirit, and communicate spiritually.

Secondly, of the Seven Gifts, I find it to be currently the least useful and perhaps most rare spiritual gift. Certainly, it does have its uses. One such modern example would be of St. Maximilian Kolbe's trip to Japan, penniless and knowing not a single word in Japanese, in six short years establishing a friary, seminary, newspaper, and radio station. Even so, I would think that prayers for gifts would be better applied towards Faith, Prophecy, Wisdom, Knowledge, Healing and Discernment of Spirits.

Lastly, there is the legitimage Charism of Understanding of Tongues (1 Cor 12:10). It seems to have been kicked into a corner and left to gather dust. Yet how many people know and can translate those tongues, be they angelic or foreign in nature? How many have tried? If there are only those who speak and none but God who understand, how can it be known to be tongue and not just regression into babble?

I'm not asking people to throw their ideas of chocolate milk away, and I don't find anything nefarious with it, just please understand that I have very strong doubts about that form of spirituality and the direction it might lead.

[Maggyie]

Sort of off topic, but going off what Scardella said... do you really have to "say" the parts of the Rosary for it to really be the Rosary? When I say it in public places, like waiting in line or on a plane ride, I say it in my head, with my fingers on the beads, so as not to disturb my neighbors. The words don't actually come out of my mouth. Does that cease to be a real Rosary, if it's not vocal? When I was in school and used to take exams, I would say a Hail Mary in my mind, same as when I heard an ambulance or saw a police car speeding off to help someone. Does that not count as the genuine article? Someone help, please. I am kind of... paranoid about things like that.

[stbernardLT]

This downplaying of communal prayer doesn't make any sense to me. The source and summit of our spiritual life (The Holy mass) is communal at its core. Any time we participate in any type of liturgy whether it is mass or Liturgy of the hours it is communal prayer. In fact the word liturgy means "a PUBLIC work". That is why most of our catholic prayers center around presiding and responding. What is the body of christ if it is not communal. What are the sacraments which give us life if they are not communal prayer. What about unity of husband and wife, works of mercy, and even evangelization, these are all obligations within our vocations. Even when we pray by ourselves we really aren't because we are united with other Catholics around the world and the saints and angels themselves supernaturally, even united with the God through the Holy Spririt who teaches us how to pray. There isn't one person here who has ever prayed alone, or a had "a personal prayer life" in the true sense of the phrase. We by our baptism move, live, and increase in spirituality as a body of Christ and to do it alone would be outside of the body. Just as when we sin we hurt the body of Christ, beacuse of the unity of one baptism, when we pray we strengthen the body. We have never prayed alone and will never pray alone. One basic idea of the trinity is that because we were created in its image we cannot and will not exist outside of a unity of love, which we find at the core of Gods being. Community is everything, seen or unseen.

[scardella]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1359173' date='Aug 15 2007, 11:22 AM']Sort of off topic, but going off what Scardella said... do you really have to "say" the parts of the Rosary for it to really be the Rosary? When I say it in public places, like waiting in line or on a plane ride, I say it in my head, with my fingers on the beads, so as not to disturb my neighbors. The words don't actually come out of my mouth. Does that cease to be a real Rosary, if it's not vocal? When I was in school and used to take exams, I would say a Hail Mary in my mind, same as when I heard an ambulance or saw a police car speeding off to help someone. Does that not count as the genuine article? Someone help, please. I am kind of... paranoid about things like that.[/quote]

That's still considered "vocal" prayer. I was talking about the Hail Marys/Our Fathers/Glory Bes/etc vs. the meditating on the mysteries.

Edited August 15, 2007 by scardella

[scardella]

[quote name='stbernardLT' post='1359182' date='Aug 15 2007, 11:43 AM']This downplaying of communal prayer doesn't make any sense to me. The source and summit of our spiritual life (The Holy mass) is communal at its core. Any time we participate in any type of liturgy whether it is mass or Liturgy of the hours it is communal prayer. In fact the word liturgy means "a PUBLIC work". That is why most of our catholic prayers center around presiding and responding. What is the body of christ if it is not communal. What are the sacraments which give us life if they are not communal prayer. What about unity of husband and wife, works of mercy, and even evangelization, these are all obligations within our vocations. Even when we pray by ourselves we really aren't because we are united with other Catholics around the world and the saints and angels themselves supernaturally, even united with the God through the Holy Spririt who teaches us how to pray. There isn't one person here who has ever prayed alone, or a had "a personal prayer life" in the true sense of the phrase. We by our baptism move, live, and increase in spirituality as a body of Christ and to do it alone would be outside of the body. Just as when we sin we hurt the body of Christ, beacuse of the unity of one baptism, when we pray we strengthen the body. We have never prayed alone and will never pray alone. One basic idea of the trinity is that because we were created in its image we cannot and will not exist outside of a unity of love, which we find at the core of Gods being. Community is everything, seen or unseen.[/quote]

Thank You!

[scardella]

[quote name='Dismas' post='1359171' date='Aug 15 2007, 11:04 AM']Well, to begin with, I am not of the Charismatic Renewal Movement, and I plan to keep it that way.

Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt your earnest love of Jesus. I have no doubt in your awe in God's presence. Even so, I have very deep reservations for the whole of the CR.

Let's get down the the business of tongues.

I don't sit well with the idea of "Angelic Tongue". Angels don't have fleshy things stuck between fleshy and bony parts that alter vibrating air into a discrete set of unique sounds that, when strung together, form words. Angels are pure spirit, and communicate spiritually.

Secondly, of the Seven Gifts, I find it to be currently the least useful and perhaps most rare spiritual gift. Certainly, it does have its uses. One such modern example would be of St. Maximilian Kolbe's trip to Japan, penniless and knowing not a single word in Japanese, in six short years establishing a friary, seminary, newspaper, and radio station. Even so, I would think that prayers for gifts would be better applied towards Faith, Prophecy, Wisdom, Knowledge, Healing and Discernment of Spirits.

Lastly, there is the legitimage Charism of Understanding of Tongues (1 Cor 12:10). It seems to have been kicked into a corner and left to gather dust. Yet how many people know and can translate those tongues, be they angelic or foreign in nature? How many have tried? If there are only those who speak and none but God who understand, how can it be known to be tongue and not just regression into babble?

I'm not asking people to throw their ideas of chocolate milk away, and I don't find anything nefarious with it, just please understand that I have very strong doubts about that form of spirituality and the direction it might lead.[/quote]

I'll just tell you what I know.

I've heard the following testimony multiple times from different people who'd just attended a Steubenville-type conference (paraphrasing of course):
"When the monstrance was exposing the Eucharist, I was praising the Lord saying things like King of Kings, You are awesome, Lord, etc. However, in the midst of this praising, one of my friends looked over and told me that I was praying in tongues. I was surprised because I was praying things quite intelligible to me. However, he (and others) reaffirmed that I was, indeed, praying in tongues."

In charismatic meetings (particularly at the Center of Jesus the Lord - yes, it's Catholic - but also at Steubenville Festival of Praises) I've seen the following phenomenon:
In the midst of silence, a person got up in front of everyone (or just in a loud voice so everyone could hear) and started speaking in unintelligible tongues. After 10-15 seconds another person called out the interpretation.

A story that I heard, and I have no reason to doubt it:
A couple of years ago, a number of FUS students were in Poland trying to find the Divine Mercy shrine. They hailed a cab and had difficulty indicating that they wanted to go to the Divine Mercy Shrine. Naturally, they didn't know a lick of Polish. What they wound up doing was praying over one of the students, and the student spoke in tongues to the cabby. The cabby wound up bringing them to the Divine Mercy Shrine. I don't remember the story any better than that, though.