Pray To Allah, Dutch Bishop Suggests

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1359052' date='Aug 15 2007, 12:26 AM']What a laugh. Here's all the "good" Catholics slamming on the "bad" Catholic Bishop who is to be respected and obeyed or you aren't Catholic. Unless, of course, you're a better Catholic than the Bishop. And how do you know if you're one of the "better" Catholics? Because your buddies tell you? Because you are committed to your personal conviction? Because you read 2 religious books more than anyone else you know? Because you're in the 'good' Catholic crowd, know some Latin phrases, kneel when you take communion, receive on the tongue, and think Chant is the 'bomb'?

Obviously the Pope feels this guy is Catholic enough to remain a Bishop. It's not like he's been shuffling predator priests or bankrupted the Diocese. I think Pope Ben needs to consult with you guy since your all so CATHOLIC and everything.[/quote]

Hmm..... well I don't know particularly who this is directed towards but I thought I'd clarify my previous statement. When I implied groups of people uttering Allah as being "not Catholic" -- I meant it literally. If the Dutch are going to be praying to Allah in the future, it is because they will be Muslim -- if current trends in immigration and family size is an indicator. (I see a lot more Muslims pushing around strollers over here in Europe than ol' whitey.) My feelings of alarm are more directed towards the general European attitude of passive appeasement rather than some "more-Catholic-than-thou" implication that the Bishop is a "bad Catholic."

Edited August 15, 2007 by Ash Wednesday

[Anomaly]

[quote name='cappie' post='1359101' date='Aug 15 2007, 05:28 AM']I find it interesting that I posted 2 topics here I think within an hour of one another, both had merit both were interesting. One was about St Maximilian Kolbe and a short meditation on his life and martyrdom and the other on a suggestion by a Dutch bishop. St Max received 9 hits the story about the bishop received at last count 148. Interesting [/quote]It certainly can be construed as a commentary on how many practice 'Catholicism'. Personally, when concerns regarding 'religious orthodoxy' came to dominate all aspects of my relationship with God, it became destructive. Just as Caths often tell Prots that Jesus came to establish a Church, not a Rule Book, the same standard should remind us that God sent Jesus to re-establish a Relationship, not just a new Religion. But hey, that's just my considered opinion.

A quick Wiki search on "Allah" provides this:
[quote]"[b]Allah (Arabic: اللّٰه, Allāh) is the standard Arabic word for "God". [/b]The term is best known in the West for its use by Muslims as a reference to God.[1] [b]Arabic-speakers of all faiths, including Christians and Jews, use the word "Allah" to mean "God".[[/b]2] The Muslim and Christian Arabs of today have no other word for 'God' than 'Allah'.[3] In pre-Islamic Arabia, Allah was used by pagan Meccans as a reference to the creator-god, possibly the supreme deity.[4][/quote]Giving the Bishop a bit of open minded respect instead of the typical uber-Catholic Orthodox treatment, may help us realize that maybe it is a bit of Western Culture bias and that Catholics who are very cross-cultural in nature, very well could be the Christians that can co-opt the use of a 'word' to recognize God and possibly aid Muslims to realize that Christians and Muslims both recognize the God of Abraham.

There also much more to the Bishop's stance on condoms which is very complex and not as un-orthodox as feared. I just take ironic pleasure in pointing out that many "faithful" Catholics aren't any less critical of residing Bishops then I am.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

The [url="http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/blog.cfm?id=161"]Catholic culture blog[/url] has an interesting piece on this matter. Here is the part that interests me the most:

[quote]The conception of God referred to by the name “Allah” is not Trinitarian. There is no Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Nor is this Allah incarnational. There is no Jesus Christ, true God and true Man. Nor has Allah revealed the deep connection of suffering with redemptive love, let alone acted upon that understanding. Allah has not taught us the way of the Cross. Rather, there is every evidence that he rejects it. In every other language but Arabic, “Allah” does not mean what Christians mean when they speak God’s name.[/quote]

After mulling it over, I agree with that. When I pray in Arabic I will continue to use 'Allah', 'Abbi', and 'Isa' - God, Father, and Jesus respectively. Arabic is my first language and culturally I am an Arab. Muslims do not have a monopoly on Arabic and I'm not going to stop praying in my language, so I don't have any trouble with using those words.

If I tried to bring them into my English prayer, it would feel odd. I wouldn't see the point. "In the name of al-Ab, al-Walad, and al-Ruhul Qudus" doesn't exactly flow.

Edited August 15, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[Ash Wednesday]

Even if it could be argued that saying "Allah" is praying to the same God, why the emphasis on Arabic when the country is Dutch? Why abandon one's Dutch language and culture? If you're from the middle east and Arabic is your cultural heritage that's one thing. I guess in my understanding of the Bishop's vision, I just don't see Muslims praying to "de Almachtig Vader" now or in the near future.

Edited August 15, 2007 by Ash Wednesday

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' post='1359193' date='Aug 15 2007, 05:55 PM']Even if it could be argued that saying "Allah" is praying to the same God, why the emphasis on Arabic when the country is Dutch? I don't see Muslims praying to "de Almachtig Vader" now or in the near future.[/quote]

During the practice known as [i]dhikr[/i] (remembrance of God) Dutch-speaking Muslims probably do. But that's another story.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='cappie' post='1359101' date='Aug 15 2007, 02:28 AM']I find it interesting that I posted 2 topics here I think within an hour of one another, both had merit both were interesting. One was about St Maximilian Kolbe and a short meditation on his life and martyrdom and the other on a suggestion by a Dutch bishop. St Max received 9 hits the story about the bishop received at last count 148. Interesting [/quote]
St. Maximillian Kolbe is not on the calendar of saints commemorated in the liturgy of the Eastern Churches, while Islam on the other hand has had a major impact on the life of Eastern Christians. Thus, I responded to this thread and not to the other.

[Apotheoun]

I do not have a problem with people who want to translate the English word "God" into the Arabic word "Allah." Language is after all a human creation. Now, as far as the Bishop's proposal is concerned, I see no reason for a person who speaks English to suddenly replace English words with Arabic words in prayer.

Nevertheless, I deny -- as a matter of divine faith -- that Muslims worship the true God.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1359197' date='Aug 15 2007, 10:04 AM']During the practice known as [i]dhikr[/i] (remembrance of God) Dutch-speaking Muslims probably do. But that's another story.[/quote]
It is highly unlikely that a Muslim would ever refer to God as "Father" in prayer, because it is a tenet of the Islamic religion that God has no sons or daughters.

[Ash Wednesday]

I guess it's what this bishop is suggesting in context of some of the things that go on in the Netherlands (and Europe) and what it represents (secularism, relativism, abandoning one's own Christian and cultural heritage and customs) is what concerns me.

But, eh. Just my opinion. I'm going to go read the Maximilian Kolbe thread now.

[Apotheoun]

The Netherlands will be an Islamic country within a generation if the present levels of Muslim immigration and population growth continue.

[curtins]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1359071' date='Aug 15 2007, 02:07 AM']Read back through the thread. The comments concerned Catholics calling God 'Allah', not a mention about his supposed 'endorsement' of condoms. So Catholics are like the other 'cults' that must refer to God with only certain names, like YWH or Jehovah or ?? So the Catholics who are speaking in Arabic can't use 'Allah' anymore? Christians can't diminish Muslim ownership of the word 'Allah' by using it themselves? LOL.
So are you saying it's your job to correct this Bishop? What's wrong with the Vatican, the Pope, or other Church 'Officials'? Where do you draw the line. Sad that you don't see how absurd your 'defense' is.[/quote]


His suggestion that we call God Allah is a manifestation of his liberalism which is also demonstrated in his deviation on condoms- It all leads to relativism.

Words have meaning- As people pointed out, Allah does not give any indication of a trinitarian nature. You're trying to argue nothing- we never said Arabic Catholics cannot use Allah, but it should not be forced upon non arabic speaking Catholics. You draw the line at orthodoxy. This bishop has a history of holding unorthodox positions. While this bit about Allah is not exactly a pressing matter of Church teaching, it is just another manifestation of his liberalism, and quite frankly its ridiculous.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='cappie' post='1359101' date='Aug 15 2007, 05:28 AM']I find it interesting that I posted 2 topics here I think within an hour of one another, both had merit both were interesting. One was about St Maximilian Kolbe and a short meditation on his life and martyrdom and the other on a suggestion by a Dutch bishop. St Max received 9 hits the story about the bishop received at last count 148. Interesting [/quote]

Now you know why the media loves to focus on scandals...

[curtins]

Great fodder for my blog [url="http://beatsfacebooknotes.blogspot.com/"]http://beatsfacebooknotes.blogspot.com/[/url]



If you can't beat 'em, join 'em: That seems to be the motto of Dutch Bishop Martinus "Tiny" Muskens of Breda. In an interview with Dutch Television, the Bishop advocated Christians calling God "Allah" in order to improve relations with Muslims. Aside from being theologically flawed, the Bishop, with all due respect, is being ridiculous. In all honesty and for the sake of all Christians, it is a good thing he is retiring in a few weeks (for which reason I think we won't hear from the Vatican about this).

This latest act of "progressivism" comes from a Bishop who has in the past deviated from the Church's teachings on a much more serious issue: Contraception. It only follows then that a bishop known for his unorthodoxy should make such a comment. It is all a manifestation of liberalism and modernism which ultimately lead to relativism- a trendy and cutting edge evil that is infesting the world we live in and seeks to contaminate the Church.

Theologically, one must ask the Bishop:
-What is the purpose of Christian prayer- to appease Muslims or to give glory to God?
-If, and I quote, "God doesn't really care how we address him", Why the 2nd commandment, and why the various Biblical passages on the subject of God's name? "Our Father...Hallowed be thy name"? No? And how about the Angel Gabriel to Mary: "And you shall name him Jesus" (Luke 1:31)?

Practically, One must ask the Bishop:
-Why don't we make this a two way street and have Muslims start praying to Jesus as God?
-While we're at it, why not call God: Baal, Vishnu, Buddha, heck even Zeus and Jove.

The fact is that the most audible cry of "Allah" in the world today is made by those killing in his name. I'm not implying that by praying to Allah one endorses radical islamo-facism, but it is one aspect to consider. Furthermore, "Allah" implies no trinitarian nature, in fact, one may argue that it denies a trinitarian nature. The word Allah is older than Islam. Arabian Pagans used "Allah" to refer to their supreme god in the days prior to Islam. This demonstrates the ambiguity of the word. On the other hand, the word"Allah" has become so associated with Islam that Christianity adopting the word as the common name for God would certainly be seen as a concession to Islam and its dogma. In short, it would be a blow to the Western Christian Identity which is already under tremendous attack.

I recognize and acknowledge that Arabic speaking Christians pray to Allah, because Allah is the word for God in Arabic. Thats fine. But why must non Arabic speaking Christians adopt Allah as the name for God? Something tells me (I could be completely off but its just a feeling I have) that this Bishop would not endorse praying to Deus or Dominus. He seems to imply that Christians and Muslims are divided over what to call God, when in fact they are divided by serious theological rifts.

Despite all this, I do agree with Bishop Muskens in one area. He predicts that in a century or two Dutch Catholics will be addressing prayers to Allah. I also predict that (possibly even sooner). This will be the case, not because of an increased interest in fostering better relations with Muslims, but rather because by that time, unless there is a dramatic change, Europe will be overrun by Islam, having lost her Christian identity and values. Dutch Catholics will be addressing prayers to Allah because they will have been converted to Islam (in which case they will no longer be Catholics) or because there is a masked man standing behind them with a sword, ready to take swift action were they to address their prayers to anyone but Allah.

In the interest of respect, I will not venture into the realm of puns and wordplay involving the Bishop's nickname, however, I assure you the possibilities are endless.

[isilzha]

I'm sure this is stupid, but why is he called "Tiny"?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='curtins' post='1360315' date='Aug 16 2007, 06:56 PM']Great fodder for my blog [url="http://beatsfacebooknotes.blogspot.com/"]http://beatsfacebooknotes.blogspot.com/[/url]
If you can't beat 'em, join 'em: That seems to be the motto of Dutch Bishop Martinus "Tiny" Muskens of Breda. In an interview with Dutch Television, the Bishop advocated Christians calling God "Allah" in order to improve relations with Muslims. Aside from being theologically flawed, the Bishop, with all due respect, is being ridiculous. In all honesty and for the sake of all Christians, it is a good thing he is retiring in a few weeks (for which reason I think we won't hear from the Vatican about this).

This latest act of "progressivism" comes from a Bishop who has in the past deviated from the Church's teachings on a much more serious issue: Contraception. It only follows then that a bishop known for his unorthodoxy should make such a comment. It is all a manifestation of liberalism and modernism which ultimately lead to relativism- a trendy and cutting edge evil that is infesting the world we live in and seeks to contaminate the Church.

Theologically, one must ask the Bishop:
-What is the purpose of Christian prayer- to appease Muslims or to give glory to God?
-If, and I quote, "God doesn't really care how we address him", Why the 2nd commandment, and why the various Biblical passages on the subject of God's name? "Our Father...Hallowed be thy name"? No? And how about the Angel Gabriel to Mary: "And you shall name him Jesus" (Luke 1:31)?

Practically, One must ask the Bishop:
-Why don't we make this a two way street and have Muslims start praying to Jesus as God?
-While we're at it, why not call God: Baal, Vishnu, Buddha, heck even Zeus and Jove.

The fact is that the most audible cry of "Allah" in the world today is made by those killing in his name. I'm not implying that by praying to Allah one endorses radical islamo-facism, but it is one aspect to consider. Furthermore, "Allah" implies no trinitarian nature, in fact, one may argue that it denies a trinitarian nature. The word Allah is older than Islam. Arabian Pagans used "Allah" to refer to their supreme god in the days prior to Islam. This demonstrates the ambiguity of the word. On the other hand, the word"Allah" has become so associated with Islam that Christianity adopting the word as the common name for God would certainly be seen as a concession to Islam and its dogma. In short, it would be a blow to the Western Christian Identity which is already under tremendous attack.

I recognize and acknowledge that Arabic speaking Christians pray to Allah, because Allah is the word for God in Arabic. Thats fine. But why must non Arabic speaking Christians adopt Allah as the name for God? Something tells me (I could be completely off but its just a feeling I have) that this Bishop would not endorse praying to Deus or Dominus. He seems to imply that Christians and Muslims are divided over what to call God, when in fact they are divided by serious theological rifts.

Despite all this, I do agree with Bishop Muskens in one area. He predicts that in a century or two Dutch Catholics will be addressing prayers to Allah. I also predict that (possibly even sooner). This will be the case, not because of an increased interest in fostering better relations with Muslims, but rather because by that time, unless there is a dramatic change, Europe will be overrun by Islam, having lost her Christian identity and values. Dutch Catholics will be addressing prayers to Allah because they will have been converted to Islam (in which case they will no longer be Catholics) or because there is a masked man standing behind them with a sword, ready to take swift action were they to address their prayers to anyone but Allah.

In the interest of respect, I will not venture into the realm of puns and wordplay involving the Bishop's nickname, however, I assure you the possibilities are endless.[/quote]This attitude, in a nutshell, displays what is wrong with people who create religion. Instead of possibly interpreting some good from christians calling God 'Allah' and establishing a change in the world so the most people uttering 'Allah' are not considered terrorists, but good and godly folk, you've managed to turn things to the most negative way possible and create all sorts of theoretical problems so that people can further ralley hateful acts and division over how we use human words.
Fantastic.
And all the justification to further hatred, dislike, etc., that's going to defend all the things wrong with the Bishop is exactly why I PROUDLY state I am not a practicing Catholic. It's not the theology behind it, it's what people do using religion to justify themselves.


This is what the Bishop said a few years ago about Islam and was criticised for it. I think his comments are being taken out of context and used to whip people into a frenzy to hate Islam and hate Catholic Christians at the same time.
[quote]AMSTERDAM — Islam won't dominate the future because it is too aggressive, Archbishop Martinus Muskens of Breda has claimed. In the quarterly magazine of Radboud University in Nijmegen, the Roman Catholic bishop writes: "I saw early on that there was a lot of aggression in there (Islam)". Islam, he said, must contemplate on the violent aspects of its tradition. The bishop feels that there is currently too much emphasis on Islam in interfaith dialogue. "We are too obsessed by it," Muskens states.[/quote]

Edited August 16, 2007 by Anomaly

[curtins]

Who's creating religion? I don't see what good could come from Christians calling God Allah, if you do, please do tell. I don't consider all Muslims terrorists as you seem to be implying. If you want to call my questions posed to the bishop "theoretical problems" then you have every right to but I believe they are justified, legitimate questions. I do not advocate hateful acts or division. Nor do I think many people commit hateful acts over how we use words, or at least over what to call God. Your position is that unless everyone concedes to all the bishops ideas (and heaven forbid we question him or try to assert our own beliefs!) we are advocating division. Thats absolutely absurd. Lets all just be like sheep and follow blindly as our faith is destroyed by relativism lest we create division! Why not just have one global religion, surely that would reduce division among peoples?

I don't understand your reasoning for not practicing your faith. Thats a whole different debate that I'm not going to get into.

[jeffpugh]

Stop ragging on us for pointing out the bishop's faults. As Christians, heck as Catholics, we have a moral obligation to uphold the quality of truth to our fellow Catholics. Especially those in hiarchy. Jesus said, "to much have been given, much is expected". In the end, he will be more accountable than other Catholics, but we will be pretty accountable for not standing up and saying his actions are uncalled for.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='curtins' post='1360373' date='Aug 16 2007, 07:35 PM']Who's creating religion? I don't see what good could come from Christians calling God Allah, if you do, please do tell. I don't consider all Muslims terrorists as you seem to be implying. If you want to call my questions posed to the bishop "theoretical problems" then you have every right to but I believe they are justified, legitimate questions. I do not advocate hateful acts or division. Nor do I think many people commit hateful acts over how we use words, or at least over what to call God. Your position is that unless everyone concedes to all the bishops ideas (and heaven forbid we question him or try to assert our own beliefs!) we are advocating division. Thats absolutely absurd. Lets all just be like sheep and follow blindly as our faith is destroyed by relativism lest we create division! Why not just have one global religion, surely that would reduce division among peoples?

I don't understand your reasoning for not practicing your faith. Thats a whole different debate that I'm not going to get into.[/quote]I will not practice Catholicism because I never, ever, want to be like you. If you want to know what's good about calling God, Allah, read my posts with an open heart and open mind. I gave reasons in my posts. But since you claim you can't think of anything good and did not already see anthing good, then what would be the point to repeat myself to a deaf and dumb person.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1360391' date='Aug 16 2007, 07:54 PM']I will not practice Catholicism because I never, ever, want to be like you.[/quote]

Cheesy Comment o' the Day:

The only reason to become Catholic is to be like Jesus ;-)

[jeffpugh]

Woo! Amen, brotha. Jesus founded this church. Not some crazy guy who found a bible... (with all due respect, of course. )