Pray To Allah, Dutch Bishop Suggests

[Apotheoun]

Just a reminder: the topic of this thread is whether or not non-Arabic speaking Christians should use the Arabic word "Allah" when praying to God.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1361859' date='Aug 18 2007, 01:01 PM']If someone had called a priest a "boy-lover" that would have sparked massive outcry by everyone here and mods wouldn't have cared less.

Curious how we won't defend people with courage to speak out against American arrogance and Anglo-centrism.[/quote]


Excuse me?????
TRUTH is always defended, rudeness is not.
Get back to the topic please.

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1361797' date='Aug 18 2007, 09:47 AM']So. Just asking.
Have many of you have placed an order for dUSt's "Respect your Bishop" shirt?
I'm not saying, just wondering....[/quote]

I didn't order one, but that's only because I think it looks like a chess club t-shirt.

[Socrates]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1360415' date='Aug 16 2007, 06:13 PM']Goodness me, someone posted a news story about something 'bad' in Europe and the USA-centric contingent of Phatmass jumps on like a pack of wolves. At least you're all consistent, I suppose.

When I pray in English, I say 'God' in (presumably) the same way you Americans do. When I pray in Dutch, I say 'God' in Dutch. If I spoke Maltese I'm sure I would address God as Allah, just as it's written in my Maltese Missal. Get over your linguistic imperialism.

Mgr. Muskens (we address our Bishops as "Mgr." here) has a reputation for being, shall we say, [i]interesting[/i]. His coadjutor Bishop, Mgr. van den Hende, was Vicar General of my present diocese. He's a super guy, solid enough even for the Americans on this forum (SHOCK!!! Hehe, yes, I know it might be hard for you all to imagine, but it's perfectly possible - it's just that you lot don't bother to learn Dutch and thus don't read the better part of the stuff that happens here) and he's good news for Breda - although we were seriously gutted that he had to leave us! Our diocesan contingent PACKED out the cathedral down there at his Ordination

A further point is that of translation - Netwerk as a programme is generally a bit way out even for my taste. However, unless CWN has a decent Dutch translation team as opposed to relying on Netwerk's English version ("English" on tv here is quite the giggle sometimes), it wouldn't surprise me if there were some nuances that escaped.

Here's a challenge for you all - find three positive reports about the Church in Europe, preferably not in English, and bring them to Phatmass' attention. Can you bring yourselves to do that?[/quote]
Quite frankly, I find your reaction a bit ridiculous (as is the five pages of bickering over this topic).
The reaction to Bishop Muskens' suggestion here has nothing to do with the fact that he's Dutch or European.
I'm sure people would be equally upset if the Bishop had been American, or from any other part of the world.
(And apparently, you've missed the controversy which has flaired up on here concerning Los Angeles' own Cardinal Mahoney - a man whom I find more despicable than this liberal Dutchman.)
While we have some good bishops, I am overall not happy with the American Bishops as a group, patriotic American though I be. If an American bishop had suggested we American Catholics start calling God "Allah" I would be just as unhappy, perhaps more so, as this would be occuring on "home turf."
Your treating this like a declaration of war on Holland comes off as silly and petulant.

My problem is not that I believe there is anything inherantly evil about calling God "Allah" - this term may be perfectly acceptable for Arabic-speaking Christians - but the fact that Bishop Muskens was doing so as an apparent act of appeasement to Muslims. Non-Arab Catholics should not change their language of worship for the purpose of making it seem more "acceptable" to Muslims. (And it is highly doubtful such a change in language would have the desired effect.) It seems we have enough trouble simply maintaining our own traditions of Catholic worship without this silly "ecumenical" garbage to try to make our Faith seem more like everyone else's religion.
And this bishop's dissidence regarding contraception shows him to be less than a stalwart defender of Catholic orthodoxy.

[Socrates]

[quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1361811' date='Aug 18 2007, 09:10 AM']I don't think it would make any suicide bombers happy - we, a bunch of heathen scum worth less than pigs, suddenly claiming we worship the same God? Outrageous!

It probably wouldn't make the terrorists who fight (or, as it seems now, to our joy, fought) in the name of Catholicism happy either.

The people who would make it happy are probably the same people who like to call God "Father, Mother, Bringer of Life", and other neo-hippie stuff. So I'm not for it. But I don't see a reason to be so wildly against it, either, especially since it was suggested by a bishop.[/quote]
I agree generally. I see no reason this would be a good idea, suggested by a bishop or no.

And what's this about "terrorists who fight in the name of Catholicism"??
Somehow I seem to have missed all the stories about Catholic suicide-bombers.

But what do I know? I'm just an ignorant, knuckle-draggin' troglodyte conservative.

[reyb]

This is another off topic post please excuse me.

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1361813' date='Aug 18 2007, 10:14 AM']Of course we can attain it. Many saints (and many who aren't canonized) were not sinless, but they came to imitate Christ in ways that only God's grace could make possible. Of course, part of drawing closer to Christ is realizing all the ways that we fail to imitate him. I don't know if one could admit they are "like" Jesus. Perhaps only under the condition of that likeness coming only from God's grace.

More importantly, all believers will become like Jesus after he comes to restore the new Creation.[/quote]

[indent]I am willing to discuss this with you in some other time but not here (because we are off topic in this thread).[/indent]
[indent]Phatmassers, thank you.[/indent]

[dairygirl4u2c]

i thought the pope said we worship the same God. if apotheon says we don't, then i seriously question that.
i do note that raphael said that we do, and he's up there in reputability.

if the CC says we do, it'd really be putting your money where your mouth is by referring to God as Allah. not that it's a necessary logical progression, as it could be argued to be watering down the true religion to appease others. or it could be looked at as being accomodating.
it all depends on how you look at it.


it seems like it'd help if people started showing whether popes say we worship the same God. then getting into the technical details of its infallibility, cause some conservatives won't buy it unless you force them to.
but, it does apparently given socs post come down to accomodating v. appeasement.
just depends on how you look at it.

[reyb]

[quote name='reyb' post='1361788' date='Aug 18 2007, 09:38 AM'][indent]All of you are correct according to your own conviction. But, please be careful on this 'Muhammad is not a prophet'.

Just a reminder. It is written in 1 Cor 10:12

12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall[/indent][/quote]


[quote name='Akalyte' post='1361789' date='Aug 18 2007, 09:40 AM']i wouldnt pray to their moon god if they put a gun to my head.[/quote]

[indent]When I please you regarding Prophet Muhammad, I am not saying be careful to any muslim who might harm you but, be careful on discrediting Prophet Muhammad in a very casual manner.

Just for info and please read it carefully And tell me if Muhammad is not a disiciple.[/indent]
[indent][color="#FF0000"]Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal. [/color]
[color="#FF0000"]It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). [/color]
From Sura 3, The Family of Imran, Holy Quran.[/indent]

[Akalyte]

[quote name='reyb' post='1362649' date='Aug 19 2007, 06:30 AM'][indent]When I please you regarding Prophet Muhammad, I am not saying be careful to any muslim who might harm you but, be careful on discrediting Prophet Muhammad in a very casual manner.

Just for info and please read it carefully And tell me if Muhammad is not a disiciple.[/indent]
[indent][color="#FF0000"]Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal. [/color]
[color="#FF0000"]It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). [/color]
From Sura 3, The Family of Imran, Holy Quran.[/indent][/quote]

i believe in the gospel according to the Catholic Church, not that war manual also known as the Kuran.

[Apotheoun]

Muhammad is not a prophet because his "revelation" contradicts the revelation of God given in Christ. As I have already said, he denies explicitly -- in both the Qur'an and the Hadith -- that God would ever beget a Son, which clearly contradicts the teaching of the New Testament.

Muhammad is one of the great deceivers, who -- by his lies -- has caused millions of people to go astray.

[Paddington]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1363121' date='Aug 19 2007, 07:18 PM']Muhammad is one of the great deceivers, who -- by his lies -- has caused millions of people to go astray.[/quote]

Do you think there is any merit to the belief that Mohammed had temporal lobe epilepsy?

[Apotheoun]

To prove that hypothesis an autopsy on his body would have to be performed, because only a medical examination could determine with any scientific accuracy whether or not he actually suffered from that ailment, or from any other neurological or physical illness for that matter, and his body is not available.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1363251' date='Aug 19 2007, 04:50 PM']To prove that hypothesis an autopsy on his body would have to be performed, because only a medical examination could determine with any scientific accuracy whether or not he actually suffered from that ailment, or from any other neurological or physical illness for that matter, and his body is not available.[/quote]

What happened to Mohammed's body?

[Apotheoun]

If my memory serves me, Muhammad was buried in his own home, which now serves as a Mosque.

[Resurrexi]

But that means that if the Mohammedans permitted an autopsy to be done it could...

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1363274' date='Aug 19 2007, 04:03 PM']But that means that if the Mohammedans permitted an autopsy to be done it could...[/quote]
It would never be permitted, and I doubt his brain still exists.

[Resurrexi]

If some scientists stole the corpse and did an autopsy would the remains which still exist be good for any information?

[Apotheoun]

I do not think so. I believe a scientist would need access to brain cells in order to determine whether or not he suffered from epilepsy.

You would need to talk to a pathologist to be sure.

[Apotheoun]

In February my doctor was unable to diagnose the cause of the tremors that had developed on the left side of my body, and so I was sent to a neurologist, and he had a brain scan and a lumbar puncture done, and it was not until after the final test results on the spinal fluid came back that he was able to determine the cause.

[reyb]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1363121' date='Aug 19 2007, 04:48 PM']Muhammad is not a prophet because his "revelation" contradicts the revelation of God given in Christ. As I have already said, he denies explicitly -- in both the Qur'an and the Hadith -- that God would ever beget a Son, which clearly contradicts the teaching of the New Testament.

Muhammad is one of the great deceivers, who -- by his lies -- has caused millions of people to go astray.[/quote]


[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1363281' date='Aug 19 2007, 06:10 PM']I do not think so. I believe a scientist would need access to brain cells in order to determine whether or not he suffered from epilepsy.

You would need to talk to a pathologist to be sure.[/quote]
[indent]Muhammad suffered ‘epilepsy’? Well, Paul said in Gal 4:13 ‘[color="#FF0000"]As you know, it was because of an ‘illness’ that I first preached the gospel to you[/color].’ Do you know what is that ‘illness’ referring to? What a coincidence if both of them are ‘epileptic’.

It is your conviction not to accept Muhammad as a prophet and I do not expect you, much more to force anybody to do it. But what I am just saying is ‘be careful’ because it is written in Surah 043:61-64 (Ornaments of Gold, Holy Quran)

[color="#FF0000"]And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way. Let not the Evil One hinder you: for he is to you an enemy avowed. When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me." "For Allah, He is my Lord and your Lord: so worship ye Him: this is a Straight Way." [/color][/indent]

[indent]Give your best shot, brother. [/indent]