Why Is Doubt Considered A Good Thing In The Catholic Church

[MilesChristi]

"And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in: Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me" (Mt. 25:33-36)

[Norseman82]

Budge,

If you read the article, you would have read that the doubt only happened at one point in life, not over her entire life. And the article did state she requested someone to pray for her to let God have a free hand in her life. Is that the sign of abandoning God, or rather abandonment to God?

And as far as to the works she did - aren't you the one saying that from grace works will follow? It could very easily have been God's grace that drove her to do those works during the dry spell. Did you ever think of that?

As far as anything else that may be disturbing, I will leave it up to the competent Church authorities. We may even learn something what the Church decides regarding our own dry periods. I look forward to it.

[Farsight one]

I personally think that doubt CAN be a sign of humility, and in that regard, CAN be a good thing.

[desertwoman]

It's called Dark Night of the Soul.

[Budge]

[quote]If you read the article, you would have read that the doubt only happened at one point in life, not over her entire life. And the article did state she requested someone to pray for her to let God have a free hand in her life. Is that the sign of abandoning God, or rather abandonment to God?[/quote]

Did you even read the article?, this went on for over 40 years.
[quote]And as far as to the works she did - aren't you the one saying that from grace works will follow? It could very easily have been God's grace that drove her to do those works during the dry spell. Did you ever think of that?[/quote]

I dont think her works were all that wonderful to be frank with you. A few people got a bowl of gruel, but even with the millions of dollars she left sick people sick and helpless a few inches from the floor on those horrible blue mats {the worse place to put an ill person is that close to the floor where they cant even get up at all on their own}, denied them modern medical care, pain killers and more. So while these poor people were given no medical care that really could have SAVED them {India DOES HAVE MODERN HOSPITALS} Mother Teresa made sure to jet-set to the modern hospital when she got sick.

[quote]I personally think that doubt CAN be a sign of humility, and in that regard, CAN be a good thing.[/quote]

So all the athiests are humble?



[quote]It's called Dark Night of the Soul.[/quote]

Christians are not supposed to live in darkness. This is another lie of Catholicism to glorify ANYTHING that has to do with darkness.
[font="Arial Black"]
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.[/font]

[Budge]

More on this, I posted this on my board discussing this same topic..


All Christians go through misfortunes. Some here have been through bad things, not going to share personal details of anyone and Ive been through things as well. But the difference between the lost person and the saved person, is while the saved person may struggle and say GOD I DO NOT UNDERSTAND or GOD WHY??? WHY GOD WHY???????
Job cried out to God in pain and anquish, but he did not go into denying the existence of God!

This is far different from...saying God doesnt exsist or as Mother Teresa said:

[quote]— You have thrown away as unwanted — unloved. I call, I cling, I want — and there is no One to answer — no One on Whom I can cling — no, No One. — Alone ... Where is my Faith — even deep down right in there is nothing, but emptiness & darkness — My God — how painful is this unknown pain — I have no Faith — I dare not utter the words & thoughts that crowd in my heart — & make me suffer untold agony.[/quote]


Im sorry but this pain is not the will of God. This is a lost person in bondage, as she says "I have no faith"

[b]And if you believe in God as a loving Father, He will never FAIL in lifting you up and COMFORTING you should you call upon Him.

Mother Teresa's "god" did.
[/b]

This is not a test of faith, ie what kind of God do you believe in Catholics that would leave someone shipwrecked even as they call upon His name?

Ive faced major tribulations even recently, not going to share all details here, but God when I go to HIM, instead of letting the devil distract me, never fails me in providing PEACE, COMFORT AND JOY.

I relate to Baydoll. God is who I go running to [like a loving Father] for total COMFORT. I need God. I say God help me! He is there for me. Sadly and tragically because Mother Tereas did not know God and was seperated from Him due to her false religion she called upon a false spirit, that left her high, and dry, miserable and wretched.
[font="Arial Black"]

2Cr 1:3 Blessed [be] God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;[/font]

[Budge]

[quote]The day you personally care for one dying leper off the streets of Calcutta, maybe I'll start listening to what you have to say about this. Until then, color me unimpressed![/quote]

Ive helped people get medical care before.{setting them up for medication, and leading friend to free clinic she didnt know about and more}

I wouldnt put them on a cot on the floor and feed them gruel. So Ive already outdistanced Mother Teresa.

You all believe the media hype, about her. Dont even take a closer look.

Look INDIA has MODERN MEDICAL CARE. {I worked for a family from INdia for a short time in my 20s}

Want to know what they told me?

"Mother Teresa is a fraud, she leads people to die, rather then gets them true help!"

Edited August 28, 2007 by Budge

[XIX]

[quote name='Budge' post='1372341' date='Aug 28 2007, 11:39 AM']More on this, I posted this on my board discussing this same topic..
All Christians go through misfortunes. Some here have been through bad things, not going to share personal details of anyone and Ive been through things as well. But the difference between the lost person and the saved person, is while the saved person may struggle and say GOD I DO NOT UNDERSTAND or GOD WHY??? WHY GOD WHY???????
Job cried out to God in pain and anquish, but he did not go into denying the existence of God![/quote]
When did Mother Teresa deny the existence of God? I thought this thread was about doubt, not full-out denial.

[quote]This is far different from...saying God doesnt exsist or as Mother Teresa said:


Im sorry but this pain is not the will of God. This is a lost person in bondage, as she says "I have no faith"[/quote]
So I guess "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me" means that Jesus had no faith? By your own logic, that is exactly what it would mean.

[quote][b]And if you believe in God as a loving Father, He will never FAIL in lifting you up and COMFORTING you should you call upon Him.

Mother Teresa's "god" did.
[/b][/quote]
No Mother Teresa's God did not leave her out to dry, He just made her wait longer than usual. You know, like Abraham. If you believe in a name-it-and-claim-it spirituality in which you can ask for something and expect God to give it to you in 2 business days, then the least you can do is not attack those who

[quote]This is not a test of faith, ie what kind of God do you believe in Catholics that would leave someone shipwrecked even as they call upon His name?

Ive faced major tribulations even recently, not going to share all details here, but God when I go to HIM, instead of letting the devil distract me, never fails me in providing PEACE, COMFORT AND JOY.[/quote]
Like I said, not helping someone immediately =/= not helping someone period. Did God leave Jesus shipwrecked when Jesus died on the cross? Or did Jesus simply experience peace, comfort, and joy when he was being scourged and spit upon?

[quote]I relate to Baydoll. God is who I go running to [like a loving Father] for total COMFORT. I need God. I say God help me! He is there for me. Sadly and tragically because Mother Tereas did not know God and was seperated from Him due to her false religion she called upon a false spirit, that left her high, and dry, miserable and wretched.
[font="Arial Black"]

2Cr 1:3 Blessed [be] God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;[/font][/quote]
Like I said...look at the Holy Cross for an example of what Mother Teresa went through. Mother Teresa was comforted, just as Jesus was comforted. She just had to go through a lot of (temporary) pain to get there. Was she perfect? No, of course not!


Of course, if you actually bothered to read the responses of catholics instead of putting us on "ignore," then you would realize that we have said all of this about five times already. It hard to get someone to listen to you when they can tell that you are paying zero attention to them. But you basically regurgitate the same thing you said previously, and you don't even stop to check what we have said. In fact, I probably could have squashed your last argument simply by quoting other posts before yours.

But then, I am probably wasting my time writing this. The odds that you will pay attention to what I have to write as considerably greater than one in a googleplex.

[XIX]

[quote name='Budge' post='1372344' date='Aug 28 2007, 11:41 AM']Ive helped people get medical care before.{setting them up for medication, and leading friend to free clinic she didnt know about and more}

I wouldnt put them on a cot on the floor and feed them gruel. So Ive already outdistanced Mother Teresa.[/quote]
Yeah right, because medical care is just 100% accessible in India. Just hop into you big bulletproof SUV and drive to the nearest hospital! Doesn't work that way in India.

[quote]Look INDIA has MODERN MEDICAL CARE. {I worked for a family from INdia for a short time in my 20s}

Want to know what they told me?

"Mother Teresa is a fraud, she leads people to die, rather then gets them true help!"[/quote]
So the point is?


You went through that whole anecdote just to tell me that someone in India think Mother Teresa is a fraud? And again, do you really think that all 900 million people in Indai had access to the same medical care as the family you were with, or even the few people you observed?

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote]Ive helped people get medical care before.{setting them up for medication, and leading friend to free clinic she didnt know about and more}[/quote]

Great, Budge so should we give you the NOBEL PEACE PRIZE...

[quote]I wouldnt put them on a cot on the floor and feed them gruel. So Ive already outdistanced Mother Teresa.[/quote]

Do you even comprehend that this woman would take people dying off the streets who were maggot filled and attempt to show them love and give them some dignity, regardless if they were on the floor on mats. No one would bat an eye at these individuals, they were left to die on the streets.

[quote]You all believe the media hype, about her. Dont even take a closer look.[/quote]

No, you believe the worst of Mother Teresa, Budge you should take a closer look. This woman dedicated her life to serving the poor, regardless if you believe that she was lost or in doubt or that her work was done in vain. This is more than I could say for those on your board who believe that they should be crowned "SAINTS."


[quote]Look INDIA has MODERN MEDICAL CARE. {I worked for a family from INdia for a short time in my 20s}

Want to know what they told me?

"Mother Teresa is a fraud, she leads people to die, rather then gets them true help!"[/quote]

Yes, we all know that you love to believe that she was a fraud.

Here is an excerpt from an article on Mother Teresa

[quote]"When once a chairman of a multinational company came to see me, to offer me a property in Bombay, he first asked: ‘Mother, how do you manage your budget?" I asked him who had sent him here. He replied: ‘I felt an urge inside me.’ I said: other people like you come to see me and say the same. It was clear God sent you, Mr. A, as He sends Mr. X, Mrs. Y, Miss Z, and they provide the material means we need for our work. The grace of God is what moved you. You are my budget. God sees to our needs, as Jesus promised. I accepted the property he gave and named it Asha Dan (Gift of Hope).[/quote]

Budge, look deep into your soul, if you could live a thousand years, you could never live up to what Mother Teresa has done, for the poorest of the poor, the [b]UNWANTED [/b]and what she did for all for those who were dying on the streets. Many people were moved to give to her and her work. Whatever tumoil she was feeling never waivered her work and in my eyes, it is THROUGH the GRACE of GOD, that she GAVE HER LIFE to SERVING. Even in her darkest hours GOD WAS WITH THIS WOMAN.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Budge' post='1372333' date='Aug 28 2007, 10:20 AM']Did you even read the article?, this went on for over 40 years.
I dont think her works were all that wonderful to be frank with you. A few people got a bowl of gruel, but even with the millions of dollars she left sick people sick and helpless a few inches from the floor on those horrible blue mats {the worse place to put an ill person is that close to the floor where they cant even get up at all on their own}, denied them modern medical care, pain killers and more. So while these poor people were given no medical care that really could have SAVED them {India DOES HAVE MODERN HOSPITALS} Mother Teresa made sure to jet-set to the modern hospital when she got sick.[/quote]

Yes, I read the article, and it clearly stated that the doubting of the existence of God happened "at one point", not a 40-year period.

And as far as the type of medical care the people received, it was in Calcutta, not the tech triangle that American jobs are being outsourced to. The treatment they received was probably a step up from what they were getting at the time, if you are being fed the right information in the first place.

If you really think she was pocketing the millions, then forward your concerns to the people investigating her cause for canonization so they can do a financial audit.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1372344' date='Aug 28 2007, 11:41 AM']Ive helped people get medical care before.{setting them up for medication, and leading friend to free clinic she didnt know about and more}

I wouldnt put them on a cot on the floor and feed them gruel. So Ive already outdistanced Mother Teresa.[/quote]And the devil promised Our Lord food in the desert, yet He replied, "Man does not live on bread alone." This is really the quintessential Budge, viewing the world just as the father of lies views it.

As it is written, [i]"as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you."[/i] (Matt 7:2)

Budge displays such enmity against the Christian ideal...much like the atheist whom she is parroting, Christopher Hitchens ([url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Missionary_Position_%28book%29"]link[/url]). But, Our Lord said that we would be hated because of our fidelity to His Gospel. ([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john15.htm#v18"]John 15:18-20[/url])

I'm just glad we have Phatmass to shine the light of Truth on the ignorance of anti-Christians such as Budge.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='Budge' post='1372344' date='Aug 28 2007, 04:41 PM']Ive helped people get medical care before.{setting them up for medication, and leading friend to free clinic she didnt know about and more}

I wouldnt put them on a cot on the floor and feed them gruel. So Ive already outdistanced Mother Teresa.[/quote]

As I've already pointed out, you claim to have qualifications in many areas when you try to argue against Catholicism as a faith or Catholics as people. When talking about the Vatican's supposedly 'pagan art', for example, you wrote, "I am schooled in art." It seems as though you have professional experience behind you in every area. I smell fish.

Even if you were a fully trained and practising doctor, that wouldn't allow you to outdistance Mother Teresa. You live in America, one of the richest nations in the world. Mother Teresa worked in Calcutta, which is notoriously poor and whose citizens are reviled in many strata of Indian society, and where sick people die in the streets and are gnawed on by rats as they die. Have you ever found such a person and carried them to the nearest hospital on your back, as Mother Teresa did? Or did you drive your friend to the free clinic in the comfort of your car?

As for those 'cots on the floor', they're called charpoys. Mother Teresa and her sisters in India either used charpoys or slept on the floor themselves. This is not just out of poverty, but out of an old custom that still prevails in parts of India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh. When I was little I often used to go to stay the night with two Pakistani friends. They were comfortably off and they had Western-style beds in their home, but those beds were rarely used. On many nights they would spread a blanket on the floor and sleep like that. I've seen the same thing done in Saudi and Jordanian households as well, and sometimes I did it myself. I still do, come to that. So even if proper hospital beds were easy to acquire in the poorest slums of Calcutta, they would have been seen as a novelty, not as items essential to medical care. Let's face it - if you can afford to outfit the hospital wards with Western beds OR to equip an operating theatre with proper instruments and a qualified surgeon, which would you choose? Where would you put your money?

[quote]Look INDIA has MODERN MEDICAL CARE. {I worked for a family from INdia for a short time in my 20s}[/quote]

Medical care that costs a fortune. Can the slum-dwellers of Calcutta pay for it, I wonder?

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1372415' date='Aug 28 2007, 07:01 PM']Budge displays such enmity against the Christian ideal...much like the atheist whom she is parroting, Christopher Hitchens ([url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Missionary_Position_%28book%29"]link[/url]). But, Our Lord said that we would be hated because of our fidelity to His Gospel. ([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john15.htm#v18"]John 15:18-20[/url])[/quote]

The enemy of my enemy is my friend...

[MilesChristi]

[quote name='Budge' post='1372344' date='Aug 28 2007, 09:41 AM']So Ive already outdistanced Mother Teresa.[/quote]

[jeffpugh]

There goes that poor woman again... ignoring half the posts and attacking the Church. I think the other PMers have said enough about this. I'm sick of the outright hatred of Budge.

[N/A Gone]

budge..why didnt I get quoted?

[Budge]

My employers from India, made it clear to me that Mother Teresa lied about India. Yes India has its poor, but they do have hospitals there and for the poor, they have Christian clinics and MORE, the REAL KIND, that offer LIFE SAVING MEDICAL CARE. I have posted links to those places on my board. A poster at my board, has talked about a missionary friend in INdia who says the Assembly of God clinic which is close to the one in Calcutta is where people to if they want to live, they go to Mother Teresas if they want to die.

[quote]So even if proper hospital beds were easy to acquire in the poorest slums of Calcutta, they would have been seen as a novelty, not as items essential to medical care. Let's face it - if you can afford to outfit the hospital wards with Western beds OR to equip an operating theatre with proper instruments and a qualified surgeon, which would you choose? Where would you put your money?[/quote]

The fact of the matter is she provided no modern medical care for these folks WHEN SHE COULD HAVE AFFORDED IT--the lack of beds is a side issue, but this included pain killers.

[url="http://members.lycos.co.uk/bajuu/"]WHERE ARE MOTHER TERESA'S MILLIONS[/url]


[quote]The English doctor Jack Preger once worked in the home for the dying. He says, "If one wants to give love, understanding and care, one uses sterile needles. This is probably the richest order in the world. [font="Arial Black"]Many of the dying there do not have to be dying in a strictly medical sense." The British newspaper Guardian described the hospice as an "organised form of neglectful assistance"[/font].[/quote]

READ THIS BOOK TOO, EXCERPTS ON LINE<
[url="http://meteorbooks.com/"]http://meteorbooks.com/[/url]


This is what makes me positively sick about Mother Teresa. She had the money to help give those people REAL MEDICAL CARE, that would have saved many of their lives, she DIDNT.

That isnt any saint in my book.

Edited August 28, 2007 by Budge

[Guest riknunez]

Budge,
Why do you HATE this kind woman so much. Let me answer that, because she was Catholic. Your brand of "Christianity" teaches you to hate all other denominations especially Catholics.
Do you say that she never knew God? Obviously you say this becasue of your interpretation of the Bible. Did you already take the course offered at your church to hate all things Catholic? That the Pope is the antichrist, that we are idol worshipers, that our works not our faith will save us? You are basking in deep ignorance. Doesnt your denomination teach you to love thy neighbor? Your words are hateful. How does your life compare with hers? How many people have you helped? I will pray for you....So should everyone here.....

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='Budge' post='1372590' date='Aug 28 2007, 11:02 PM']My employers from India, made it clear to me that Mother Teresa lied about India. Yes India has its poor, but they do have hospitals there and for the poor, they have Christian clinics and MORE, the REAL KIND, that offer LIFE SAVING MEDICAL CARE. I have posted links to those places on my board. A poster at my board, has talked about a missionary friend in INdia who says the Assembly of God clinic which is close to the one in Calcutta is where people to if they want to live, they go to Mother Teresas if they want to die.
The fact of the matter is she provided no modern medical care for these folks WHEN SHE COULD HAVE AFFORDED IT--the lack of beds is a side issue, but this included pain killers.

[url="http://members.lycos.co.uk/bajuu/"]WHERE ARE MOTHER TERESA'S MILLIONS[/url]
READ THIS BOOK TOO, EXCERPTS ON LINE<
[url="http://meteorbooks.com/"]http://meteorbooks.com/[/url]
This is what makes me positively sick about Mother Teresa. She had the money to help give those people REAL MEDICAL CARE, that would have saved many of their lives, she DIDNT.

That isnt any saint in my book.[/quote]

Budge, have you seen any footage of Mother Teresa's funeral? People lined the streets in floods of tears when she died. And these were ordinary, common people. The Indian government offered her citizenship and a state funeral, which is not something any government will do unless the person involved performed real services to the country.

[quote]Yes India has its poor, but they do have hospitals there and for the poor, they have Christian clinics and MORE, the REAL KIND, that offer LIFE SAVING MEDICAL CARE.[/quote]

And as I have pointed out, decent medical care in India is [i]not free[/i]. A good hospital is out of the question for the poorest and the sickest - a fact that is attested to by India's low life expectancy and high infant mortality rate. If there really was such a proliferation of 'LIFE SAVING MEDICAL CARE', as you scream in capitals, that wouldn't be the case. India is a Third World country with underdeveloped and poorly utilised resources. Fact.

As for the Assembly of God clinic beating Mother Teresa's hospital, I've come across that rumour before on the Internet. It was propagated and spread by a single journalist who also happens to be an atheist, and who was interviewed by the Vatican as part of Mother Teresa's canonisation process. You're just putting a cyber-rumour into the mouth of your employers. There's no proof of that claim at all - and the crowds that lined the streets at Mother Teresa's funeral attest to the contrary.

Mother Teresa did not hold a single penny to her name, being bound by a vow of poverty. The people who try to present her as a scheming, money-orientated opportunist ignore the fact that she slept on the floor and ate the food of the common people. They also forget that she was living and working as a nun for [i]decades[/i] before the journalist Malcolm Muggeridge discovered the good work she was doing and chose to publicise it for the BBC. A woman who was really after money would have sought out publicity on her own account long before that. Mother Teresa never did.