Why Is Doubt Considered A Good Thing In The Catholic Church

[Budge]

If I had the millions of dollars Mother Teresa had from WORLDWIDE DONATIONS I would have given these folks actual help instead of putting them on the floor and denying them medical care. These people in most of the cases WERE NOT TERMINALLY ILL with CANCER or anything like that. MODERN MEDICAL CARE would have saved many of their lives. She had the money, especially towards the latter 20 years, and didnt do that.

Of course I would get the surgeons and proper tools over special beds....that is a silly question.
[quote]One was written by Susan Shields, a former Missionaries of Charity sister who worked with Teresa. [b]Shields revealed that part of her job was to help keep track of the millions of dollars donated to Teresa's "charity" work. Unfortunately, most of that money sat unused in various bank accounts while the sisters had to beg for food from local merchants. If the locals couldn't help out, the soup kitchens did without. This is "charity?"[/b]

The other article was written by me. I compared the late Carl Sagan's genuine, almost immeasurable contributions to humanity with Teresa's contributions. [font="Arial Black"]Hers consisted of little more than telling people that suffering was good for them, and prattling on inanely about how God will provide, as starving children dropped like flies all around her. I also pointed to the brazen hypocrisy of Teresa's denying her "patients" the most rudimentary care, including simple comforts and pain killers, while she herself checked into posh hospitals to have a pacemaker implanted and blood vessels cleared. Her own health and comfort were apparently quite important to her. [/font][/quote]

[url="http://www.holysmoke.org/hs02/teresa1.htm"]LINK[/url]


[quote]Leaving her position as the principal of a famous high school that catered to students from wealthy families, Mother Teresa chose to live among the dregs of society and devoted herself to serving the poorest of the poor. That fact is commendable. She says, "I slept where I happened to be, on the ground, often in hovels infected by rats. I ate what the people I was serving ate....I had chosen that lifestyle in order to literally live out the Gospel....I gave my life completely to God...." (Renzo Allegri, "Mother Teresa: The Early Years," New Covenant, August 1996, p 8).
[font="Arial Black"]
There have been numerous reports by former workers in her clinics as well as by visiting medical doctors that the patients are not given proper medication and that the beds and furnishings and general conditions more closely resemble an extermination camp than a hospital or clinic. The reports, coming as they do from a variety of independent observers, seem beyond dispute. [/font]As one example, [u]Mary London, a volunteer in Calcutta, wrote concerning Mother Teresa's Home for the Dying,[/u]

[font="Arial Black"] My initial impression was of all the photographs and footage I've ever seen of Belsen [Nazi death camp] and places like that, because all the patients had shaved heads.[/font] No chairs anywhere, there were just these stretcher beds. They're like First World War stretcher beds. There's no garden, no yard even. No nothing. And I thought what is this? This is two rooms with fifty to sixty men in one, fifty to sixty women in another. They're dying. They're not being given a great deal of medical care. They're not being given painkillers really beyond aspirin...for the sort of pain that goes with terminal cancer....(Christopher Hitchens, The Missionary Position: Mother Teresa in Theory and Practice; Verso, London, NewYork, 1995, pp 39-40)

We are not indicting Mother Teresa with lack of compassion or with cruelty toward her patients. The problem is her Roman Catholic belief that personal suffering helps to earn one's salvation. Many Catholic priests and nuns, to this day, wear hair undergarments, put stones in their shoes, flagellate themselves and otherwise try to merit heaven by suffering. Poverty and suffering are not simply endured but are sought and even created. Consider this example:
[b]
[G]iven use of a three-storey convent with many large rooms...the sisters ...removed the benches...pulled up all the carpeting in the rooms and hallways. They pushed thick matresses out the windows and removed all the sofas, chairs and curtains....People from the neighborhood stood on the sidewalk and watched in amazement.

The beautifully constructed house was made to conform to a way of life intended to help the sisters become holy. Large sitting rooms were turned into dormitories where beds were crowded together....The heat remained off all winter in this exceedingly damp house. Several sisters got TB during the time I lived there. (Hitchens, p 45)
[u]
The heat was not left off for lack of funds. Mother Teresa has bank accounts with tens of millions of dollars on deposit, so she could afford proper heat, furnishings and food and certainly all the medical attention ever needed. Yet she does without all of these "luxuries," enforces the same rule upon her "Sisters of Charity," and deprives her patients of them as well. No doubt, just as she hopes to earn her way to heaven through her own deprivation and suffering, so Mother Teresa hopes to help her patients as well to reach heaven through the suffenng she imposes upon them.[/u][/b] The morgue in Calcutta has this inscription on a wall: "I am leaving for heaven today."[/quote]

Reading about that makes me sick.

Some of you need to realize the truly HOLY and SAINTLY, do not become WORLD CELEBRITIES. They are doing their work behind the scenes, unnoticed and unrewarded {in this world}

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Budge' post='1372604' date='Aug 28 2007, 06:23 PM']Some of you need to realize the truly HOLY and SAINTLY, do not become WORLD CELEBRITIES. They are doing their work behind the scenes, unnoticed and unrewarded {in this world}[/quote]How does that work out with Scripture where Jesus was bathed with expensive oil? Why do all our your posts distinctly lack humility because you always spout 'your opinion' and what 'Budge' does? Does this mean King David and King Solomon were fundamentally evil men because of their wealth and public acclaim? You confuse me.

[Mateo el Feo]

With her identification with atheists and anti-Christians, Budge is starting to sound less like a Fundamentalist Baptist and more like a Landover Baptist.

[Budge]

[quote][b]As for the Assembly of God clinic beating Mother Teresa's hospital, I've come across that rumour before on the Internet. It was propagated and spread by a single journalist who also happens to be an atheist, and who was interviewed by the Vatican as part of Mother Teresa's canonisation process. You're just putting a cyber-rumour into the mouth of your employers.[/b] There's no proof of that claim at all - and the crowds that lined the streets at Mother Teresa's funeral attest to the contrary.[/quote]

actually I heard this from a poster on my board. The employers just talked about what she said about India...

Is this place fake a rumor....?

No its in the YELLOW PAGES?

Oh by the way, theres MORE THEN ONE, I do not know the exact one that is close to her clinic, but with several of them listed who knows..

[url="http://yellowpages.sulekha.com/search.aspx?txtsearch=Assembly+of+God&country=in&loc=Kolkata&areaname=&txtfiltertemp="]ASSEMBLY OF GOD HOSPITALS IN CALCUTTA/otherwise known as KOLKATA[/url]

[kenrockthefirst]

BTW, the dirty little secret in this discussion is that adherents of the Pentecostal / Fundamentalist / Evangelical religions harbor doubts as well, usually after the "honeymoon" period they experience immediately subsequent to being "saved," but can't actually talk about it because that would challenge the veracity of their "saved"-ness. Better to just stick their fingers in their ears and shout "la la la la I can't hear you I'm not listening" than actually think.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote]Some of you need to realize the truly HOLY and SAINTLY, do not become WORLD CELEBRITIES. They are doing their work behind the scenes, unnoticed and unrewarded {in this world}[/quote]

Oh we Catholics do realize that there are those who go unnoticed who are holy and saintly. Does it bother you that much Budge, that Mother Theresa was well reknown and DONATIONS from all over the world came to her WORK and these people felt COMPELLED from the BOTTOM of their SOUL to GIVE.. Does it negate her SERVICE because she was a so called "CELEBRITY", as you stated.

Regardless of what you have "heard" and what you believe to be true, your CONDEMNATION of Mother Theresa means nothing to us. You are not her JUDGE, nor do you sit at the RIGHT HAND of JESUS.

Are you sure you don't belong to the Land over Baptist family!

Edited August 28, 2007 by "Kyrie eleison"

[Budge]

[quote]BTW, the dirty little secret in this discussion is that adherents of the Pentecostal / Fundamentalist / Evangelical religions harbor doubts as well, usually after the "honeymoon" period they experience immediately subsequent to being "saved," but can't actually talk about it because that would challenge the veracity of their "saved"-ness. Better to just stick their fingers in their ears and shout "la la la la I can't hear you I'm not listening" than actually think.[/quote]

Sure, Satan can send doubts, and all sorts of rot, but the Christian is trained to stand on the Word and in our churches, this stuff isnt celebrated or falsely held up as a mark of a saint with all this "dark night of the soul" nonsense.

Christians know they will face tribulations and may cry out to God, etc but one thing one of my posters said today, she never met a saved Christian who denied the very exsistence of God {I agree} and sadly this was true of Mother Teresa,

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1372641' date='Aug 28 2007, 06:56 PM']BTW, the dirty little secret in this discussion is that adherents of the Pentecostal / Fundamentalist / Evangelical religions harbor doubts as well, usually after the "honeymoon" period they experience immediately subsequent to being "saved," but can't actually talk about it because that would challenge the veracity of their "saved"-ness. Better to just stick their fingers in their ears and shout "la la la la I can't hear you I'm not listening" than actually think.[/quote]Exactly. Budge can sound quite triumphalist with her fingers in her ears. Budge is pretty good at spam, but not too good at debate.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

I know full well that Assemblies of God clinics exist in India. I never denied that. I [i]did[/i] deny that sick people deliberately choose AoG clinics over MC clinics if they want to live.

And you knew that, Budge. But you chose to pretend that I had claimed the AoG clinics don't even exist...because a silly claim like that is easy to refute.

The statement I actually made is not so easy to refute, is it? Especially as your 'source' is a member of your own notoriously anti-Catholic website. Yet you present it as if it is fact. This fundamentalist poster 'guesses' that Mother Teresa thought she was earning her way to Heaven by living very simply - but did s/he have access to Mother Teresa's mind? To the MC bank statements and accountancy ledgers, even?

No. Clearly not.

Reading that makes [i]me[/i] sick, too - because it is a tissue of rumours and gossip and outright speculation. That's not Christian. Those people are tearing Mother Teresa to pieces simply because she's Catholic. The flimsiest pretext will do, as they operate on two principal assumptions:

1.) Nothing good can come out of Catholicism, so any seemingly holy or compassionate Catholic must be rotten at the core. It's just a question of scratching away at their exterior until you discover it.
2.) It is a crucial part of 'mission work' to harm the reputations of famous Catholics who are renowned for acts of kindness, as this will make the Catholic faith seem less credible. And it's not as if those acts of kindness are [i]real[/i] and Christ-centred. They can't be! Not if they originate with Catholics!

And so you get trapped in the same poisonous circle.

As I pointed out (and you conveniently ignored) Mother Teresa wasn't always famous. She was living and working with the poor and sick and lonely for [b]MANY YEARS[/b] before she was discovered by the BBC. By your logic, did she cease to be holy once people got to know her face?

By your logic, did Jesus cease to be holy when He turned thirty and began three years of public ministry that soon had the land in uproar? Thousands of people flocked to hear Jesus if word got about that He was in town. His celebrity certainly didn't impinge on His holiness.

Your statement that holiness goes unseen does not square with the posts you once made about cloistered nuns. There you argued vigorously that a holy life is an active, public life. Holiness, you argued, is no good unless it is seen. Yet your disparaging remarks about fame contradicts that outright. This proves to me that you will criticise anything Catholic, without regard for internal consistency, for no other reason than it is Catholic.

[Socrates]

Anyone else notice how in her threads against Catholic nuns and religious, Budge will in one post attack them for their austere lifestyle and practices of self-denial, then in another lambast them for being too rich and worldly?!

Budge's posts bring to mind these words of Christ:[quote]But whereunto shall I esteem this generation to be like? It is like to children sitting in the market place.
Who crying to their companions say: We have piped to you, and you have not danced: we have lamented, and you have not mourned.
[b]For John came neither eating nor drinking; and they say: He hath a devil.
The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say: Behold a man that is a glutton and a wine drinker, a friend of publicans and sinners.[/b][/quote]~ Matt. 11:16-19

Edited August 29, 2007 by Socrates

[Apotheoun]

I suppose that this makes Budge consistently inconsistent.

[Farsight one]

Alright Budge, how many people did mother Theresa care for? And how many meals a day did they get because of her? And how much did each meal cost? And how much did the cots they slept in cost? And how much were the blankets and pillows? And how much did the housing cost? And how much did the medicine cost? And how much did flying in doctors to seem some of the actually sick persons cost? I'm surprised that Mother Theresa managed to do what she did with the money she got in donations and I highly doubt that you or anyone else could have done more. With what I can figure out from the way you talk, it seems like you would have bought full sized actual beds and mattresses for everyone. If you did that, then I doubt you'd have any donation money left to feed these people. Mother Theresa did what she could with what she had, and she devoted her entire life to trying to help others. Even if she wasn't all that good or efficient at it, it's the fact that she tried so hard that matters most.

[Norseman82]

Budge,

Keep in mind a few other things:

1) Her order operates worldwide. It costs millions to do that.

2) Perhaps you are confusing hospices and hospitals? Hospices are not there to treat disease, they are there to allow the dying to die with some dignity instead of in a street gutter while people pass them by. I would like to think that you know the difference, but then again, I could be wrong.

Also, these points that you bring up are old. Here is a link for you to read:

[url="http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1434"]http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1434[/url]

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Budge' post='1372655' date='Aug 28 2007, 05:10 PM']Sure, Satan can send doubts, and all sorts of rot, but the Christian is trained to stand on the Word and in our churches, this stuff isnt celebrated or falsely held up as a mark of a saint with all this "dark night of the soul" nonsense.

Christians know they will face tribulations and may cry out to God, etc but one thing one of my posters said today, she never met a saved Christian who denied the very exsistence of God {I agree} and sadly this was true of Mother Teresa,[/quote]
Right. Thinking and honesty are [i]verboten[/i] in the Pentecostal / Fundamentalist / Evangelical religions.

By your standard, not even Jesus would have made the cut.

[thessalonian]

Did we read the same story because I don't see where it said she denied God. May have questioned him but what I see is a faith that persevered in trial, believing without seeing. Without feeling the "closeness" all the time and acting day in and day out even though she was not always given warm fuzzies by God. That is faith.

[Budge]

Jesus cried out as all Christians do in tribulation.

That had nothing to do with statements about God NOT existing.

I wrote this on my board and it applies here..

When I read the testimony of born again Christians some of who even died for the gospel, martyrs, missionaries living in some of the worse places on earth, one thing that stands out is the joy they have in Jesus Christ no matter what circumstances they face. I have seen this even personally with fellow believers and friends, people who have faced severe things, including a disabled friend of mine who has been unable to leave her house for years who suffers immense pain on a daily basis, and who always shows joy in Jesus Christ. By the way this friend was the only Christian I knew at the time I was saved. I know she was praying for me.

The Christian life is one of comfort, and joy in Jesus Christ. His love is always there. A Christian can be homeless, doubled over in pain, having lost people to death, and if they focus on HIm, they will have joy and comfort in Him despite even the most horrific things in life. Catholics dont understand that, I am sure they would think some of these folks were insane or something.

To me the examples of Christian holiness to emulate are those mature Christians who can withstand all sorts of adversity {and yes God understands our tear and pain} but even there, knowing and holding faith in Christ, and feeling His LOVE.

But the thing that stands out to me about these Catholic saints, and to be honest this is horrifying to me. Some Catholics will misunderstand and think "Oh Budge hates Mother Teresa" etc...in fact my feelings are not of angry or hate, but immense pity for those stuck in what is basically MISERY, DEPRESSION AND DESPAIR and it didnt have to be this way.


The Christian way despite tribulation is one of joy and comfort.

The Catholic way with tribulation, seems to be one of horrifying suffering, misery and pain and no comfort.

This is a promise of God's all born again Christians can hold to.
[font="Arial Black"]
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.[/font]

Where was this for Mother Teresa?

[Kirisutodo333]

[quote name='Budge' post='1372333' date='Aug 28 2007, 11:20 AM']QUOTE
It's called Dark Night of the Soul.

Christians are not supposed to live in darkness. This is another lie of Catholicism to glorify ANYTHING that has to do with darkness.
[font="Arial Black"]
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.[/font][/quote]

This is what Dark Night of the Soul means to us:

1. One dark night,
fired with love's urgent longings
- ah, the sheer grace! -
I went out unseen,
my house being now all stilled.

2. In darkness, and secure,
by the secret ladder, disguised,
- ah, the sheer grace! -
in darkness and concealment,
my house being now all stilled.

3. On that glad night,
in secret, for no one saw me,
nor did I look at anything,
with no other light or guide
than the one that burned in my heart.

4. This guided me
more surely than the light of noon
to where he was awaiting me
- him I knew so well -
there in a place where no one appeared.

5. O guiding night!
O night more lovely than the dawn!
O night that has united
the Lover with his beloved,
transforming the beloved in her Lover.

6. Upon my flowering breast
which I kept wholly for him alone,
there he lay sleeping,
and I caressing him
there in a breeze from the fanning cedars.

7. When the breeze blew from the turret,
as I parted his hair,
it wounded my neck
with its gentle hand,
suspending all my senses.

8. I abandoned and forgot myself,
laying my face on my Beloved;
all things ceased; I went out from myself,
leaving my cares
forgotten among the lilies.

-San Juan de la Cruz

Pray that God doesn't put your faith to the test. I have my doubts about you making it through the dark night. But I will pray for you.

Another thing, last time I checked most saints were persecuted, spit on, walked all over, imprisoned and degraded.

Here is my statement: [b]Budge is a true testament to Mother Teresa’s saintly virtues. [/b]

Paz en Cristo

Kiris

[Budge]

That poem Im sorry has nothing to do with Christianity and everything to do with teaching folks to LOOK TO THEIR SELVES instead of the will of God.


[quote]3. On that glad night,
in secret, for no one saw me,
nor did I look at anything,
[b]with no other light or guide
than the one that burned in my heart.[/b][/quote]

This basically says LOOK TO SELF>

The Bible says the heart is a deceitful thing, your poem says otherwise.

[quote]5. O guiding night!
O night more lovely than the dawn!
O night that has united
the Lover with his beloved,
transforming the beloved in her Lover.[/quote]

[b]Night is more lovely then the dawn?[/b]

Luk 11:35 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.
[quote]Pray that God doesn't put your faith to the test. I have my doubts about you making it through the dark night. But I will pray for you.[/quote]
[u]
Ive had tribulation like many others, I will not go into detail here. But lets just say, I am not a young Catholic who romanticizes suffering, out of never having been there.[/u]

and that is one false thing about your religion, that says suffering is good and then even praises a woman living in despair for years, because she was given a false gospel.

I feel sorry for MOther Teresa. If I had met her I would have had a serious chat with her, and told her YOU DO NOT HAVE TO WORK YOUR WAY TO HEAVEN.

Edited August 29, 2007 by Budge

[TotusTuusMaria]

Oh, how I wish you would have met Mother Teresa.

Budge your words are not those of love but rather of hate. And calling someone names and making great accusations about them is not how you show pity. I do wish you would have met Mother Teresa and had a "good long chat" with her. I wish it probably more than you do.

[thessalonian]

If the darkness could not be good then why did God put us in it? Isn't there a psalm that talks about the day and the night being one. The night can be good because the light of Christ guides us through it. God allows the darkness for our spiritual growth and so that we can trust in him to get us to the dawn of the new day.