Why Is Doubt Considered A Good Thing In The Catholic Church

[N/A Gone]

With the publication of some of her personal writings, media wags have expressed shock that she confessed to feeling distant from God at times. Dah! It makes me worry about the maturity of some of the people who set the storylines for Newsweek, CNN, and USA Today (I’ve always been concerned about the maturity of the folks who put People together). Faith is not straight-line surety, but a relationship (with waves and troughs). So, this day that serves as the Church’s commemoration of Blessed Teresa of Calcutta, some reflections on faith by Presbyterian minister and writer Frederick Buechner:


[quote]“Faith is better understood as a verb than as a noun, as a process than as a possession. It’s on-again-off-again rather than once-and-for-all. Faith is not being sure where you are going, but going anywhere. … Paul Tillich said that doubt isn’t the opposite of faith; it’s an element of faith. I have faith that my friend is my friend. It is possible that all his motives are ulterior. It is possible that what he is secretly drawn to is not me, but to my wife or my money. But there’s something about the way I feel when he’s around, about the way he looks me in the eye, about the way we can talk to each other without pretense and be silent without embarrassment, that makes me willing to put my life in his hands, as I do each time I call him friend. I can’t prove the friendship of my friend. When I experience it, I don’t need to prove it. When I don’t experience, no proof will do. If I tried to put his friendship to the test somehow, the test itself would qwerty the friendship I was testing. So it is with the Godness of God.”[/quote]

[Budge]

At times???

The span of TIME with this doubt is given as 1949-1979 and beyond.

Edited September 5, 2007 by Budge

[Farsight one]

Even the faith of Jesus Christ himself faltered right before He died. (my God, my God, why have you forsaken me)

Frankly, I'd be really suspicious of someone's honesty and sincerity if they claim that their faith never falters at all.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1380128' date='Sep 6 2007, 10:47 PM']Even the faith of Jesus Christ himself faltered right before He died. (my God, my God, why have you forsaken me)[/quote]
The Faith of Jesus Christ never faltered. This verse is commonly misinterpreted. Christ was beginning to recite the the 22nd Psalm (or 21st, depending on version of Bible). This psalm foretells the passion of Christ and in the end proclaims the triumph of the Lord over all nations (fulfilled after His Resurrection).

[Farsight one]

I would agree that the faith of the divine "side" of Christ never faultered. It would be ridiculous to say it did, but I see him being quite human on the cross. Just because he said a section of a verse from psalm doesn't mean he was quoting it. I find the relationship you're drawing to be about as absolute as some of the Horus-Jesus similarity "facts".

Even if you're right, then I'll just say that even Peter's faith faltered. And who can forget doubting Thomas? The rest of my previous statement still stands on those premises.

[Mateo el Feo]

Just FWIW, Socrates' reference to the Psalm is quite well established.

Here's the link:

[url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/psalms/psalm22.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/psalms/psalm22.htm[/url]

[Farsight one]

I have no doubt about it being established somewhere, but my statement still stands. There's no basis for that belief.

I mean, what did the people standing there listening to him say in response? They said basically "he's calling out to God, let us see if God responds" They didn't say "he's quoting psalms" or "he's quoting ancient jewish texts". He was calling out to God. As for your link:

1. They mentioned that the two lines are the same, but not that one was a quote of the other.

2. Their own footnote calls that line a lament. Even if it was a quote, the idea that His humanity was doubting still stands.

Maybe my bias against that website makes it hard to see, but I really don't think so.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Budge' post='1378803' date='Sep 5 2007, 06:06 PM']At times???

The span of TIME with this doubt is given as 1949-1979 and beyond.[/quote]
So you have a woman who, in spite of her doubts (human failing, that) still immersed herself in helping alleviate the suffering of her fellow man, and yet you feel the need to slander her? You are truly desperate, aren't you? How does it feel before you log on to Phatmass, knowing someone has probably countered your arguments with facts, thus forcing you into rhetoric, insults and font manipulation? Ah, yes, let's not forget smilies. Do you feel a bit of queasiness, a bit of unease? Do you kick your dog, sometimes? Is there a list beside your computer of subjects to start so that you can dramatically claim you can't pay attention to all the threads on phatmass when you are called upon to deal with the topic you yourself started? I'm curious.

I myself have doubts. I suppose you're salivating at my impending damnation. Your posts have the undertone of glee that those doing good will still suffer in Hell. Is that your intent, or is it accidental? Personally, U hope everyone goes to Heaven; I hope that somehow, they are not responsible enough for their decisions to be damned. I hope Idi Amin went to Heaven. I hope Anton LaVey went to Heaven. I even hope Hitler went to Heaven, along with all the victims of his atrocities. When we get Bin Laden, I hope he goes to Heaven. Hell is the eternal fall from grace, for those who have chosen to reject God. There are a multitude of ways to reject God. Would you not agree that in sinning, we reject God? Do you sin? Isn't faith the acceptance of God, and more than mere belief? Could it not be argued that sinning is an issue of faith? Essentially, a form of doubt. Do you sin?

[thessalonian]

I thought what Albert Mohler said was pertinent to this discussion.

[url="http://www.albertmohler.com/blog_read.php?id=995"]http://www.albertmohler.com/blog_read.php?id=995[/url]

"The disclosure of previous secret letters from Mother Teresa indicates that she was deeply troubled by doubts and a sense of Christ's absence. The fact is that many [b]Christians[/b] [b]struggle with doubt[/b]. Indeed, the most thoughtful believers are most likely of all to understand what is at stake, and thus to suffer pangs and [b]seasons of doubt[/b].

[b]Doubt can be healthy[/b]. It can drive believers to a deeper knowledge of what we believe and a deeper embrace of the truth of the Gospel. It can deepen our trust in God and mature our faith. At the same time, doubt can be a form of sin . . . a refusal to trust God and his promises."


Do you know who AM is Budge? Do you agree? I hardly think the CC ALWAYS says doudt is healthy as your topic implies. Well said Mr. Mohler.

Edited September 7, 2007 by thessalonian

[Dismas]

I suppose some relevant verses to think on... To really think on...
[quote name='Luke 6:43-45, KJV']43For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

44For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.

45A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.[/quote]

[quote name='Revelation 12:10, KJV']10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.[/quote]

[Budge]

Yeah I know who Al is.

Actually heres another quote from that article...
[quote]As an evangelical Christian, I have to be concerned that part of Mother Teresa's struggle was that she did not consider herself worthy of salvation. She was certainly not worthy of salvation. Nor am I. Nor is any sinner. The essence of the Gospel is that none is worthy of salvation. That is what makes salvation all about grace. As the Apostle Paul taught us, the wonder of God's grace is that while we were sinners, Christ died for us.

Our confidence is in Christ, not in ourselves. We are weak; He is strong. We fluctuate; He is constant. We cannot trust our feelings nor our emotional state. We trust in Christ. Those who come to Christ by faith are not kept unto him by our faith, but by his faithfulness.

I possess no ability to read Mother Teresa's heart, but I do sincerely hope that her faith was in Christ, and not in her own faithfulness.[/quote]

I totally agree.

[Mateo el Feo]

Reading this quote, I can't see anything that Mother Theresa wouldn't know herself. It's as if this guy is taking his pre-school religious lessons to a woman who has spent her life devoted to Christ.

[Mercy me]

[quote name='Dismas' post='1376125' date='Sep 1 2007, 11:57 PM']Fear is like doubt, and it isn't morally evil to have fear. Choosing fear is morally evil, and it's called cowardice. Choosing against fear is a moral good, and it is called courage.

Having doubt, and choosing against it is called Faith.

Just like Love isn't some soft fuzzy feeling, that once it goes away, well, a couple might as well break up or divorce, Faith isn't a feeling either. Just as Love is a continuous choice, even when the honeymoon is over, Faith is a choice, and when it is chosen it has power.[/quote]

Very well put Dismas

[Saint Therese]

I think Budge is using what's known as sophistry. Its sophistry to suggest that Mother Teresa's life was devoid of good works. Also, Our Lord Himself said,"by their fruits you will know them". I think the fruits of Mother Teresa's life are pretty self evident. Thousands of children not killed by abortion because everyone knew Mother Teresa NEVER refused a child in her children's homes. Thousands(and least) dying destitutes died with dignity and were loved as Christ loves them. Many thousands of lepers, AIDS patients,etc were cared for by the MC sisters when no one else would. Many were fed, clothed, taught, loved, befriended-all only for love of God and to love God. Now, you may argue that these things do not prove that Mother was "saved" but if Our Lord said, by their fruits you will know them, then what does it prove? Edited September 8, 2007 by Saint Therese

[Socrates]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1380213' date='Sep 7 2007, 02:28 AM']I have no doubt about it being established somewhere, but my statement still stands. There's no basis for that belief.

I mean, what did the people standing there listening to him say in response? They said basically "he's calling out to God, let us see if God responds" They didn't say "he's quoting psalms" or "he's quoting ancient jewish texts". He was calling out to God. As for your link:

1. They mentioned that the two lines are the same, but not that one was a quote of the other.

2. Their own footnote calls that line a lament. Even if it was a quote, the idea that His humanity was doubting still stands.

Maybe my bias against that website makes it hard to see, but I really don't think so.[/quote]
The statement about the Psalm is an established tradition of the Church, and has more basis than your opinion.
Read the psalm in its entirety.
I don't think it mere coincidence that Christ upon his death should recite a psalm regarded as Messianic prophecy fortelling His passion and ending with the establishment of God's rule.

The people responding to Him misinterpret Him and are mocking and jeering at Him. They should not be taken as models of interpretation.

While Christ greatly and truly suffered, doubt is an act of the will. Christ could have never truly thought His Father would abandon Him.
While it may be fashionable for "liberal Christians" to believe in a flawed, weak, doubtful "all-too-human-Christ," we know that Christ was also Divine and perfect. A doubting Christ would be a God in schism with Himself, which is absurd.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1381413' date='Sep 9 2007, 03:28 AM']The statement about the Psalm is an established tradition of the Church, and has more basis than your opinion.
Read the psalm in its entirety.
I don't think it mere coincidence that Christ upon his death should recite a psalm regarded as Messianic prophecy fortelling His passion and ending with the establishment of God's rule.

The people responding to Him misinterpret Him and are mocking and jeering at Him. They should not be taken as models of interpretation.

While Christ greatly and truly suffered, doubt is an act of the will. Christ could have never truly thought His Father would abandon Him.
While it may be fashionable for "liberal Christians" to believe in a flawed, weak, doubtful "all-too-human-Christ," we know that Christ was also Divine and perfect. A doubting Christ would be a God in schism with Himself, which is absurd.[/quote]

Is it possible for Jesus to have [i]felt[/i] abandoned by the Father, but to have known differently?

The novice mistress of a Carmel know takes issue with a point raised by St John of the Cross in her book [i]Guidelines for Mystical Prayer[/i]. She writes that God cannot want us to believe Him absent, as this goes contrary to the spirit of the Gospels. She then goes on to explain that feeling and believing are different.

I have sometimes felt terribly alone, but I believed the opposite to be true. Belief proved right. Is it theologically acceptable to say that the same was true of Christ during His agony?

[Socrates]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1382002' date='Sep 9 2007, 05:59 PM']Is it possible for Jesus to have [i]felt[/i] abandoned by the Father, but to have known differently?

The novice mistress of a Carmel know takes issue with a point raised by St John of the Cross in her book [i]Guidelines for Mystical Prayer[/i]. She writes that God cannot want us to believe Him absent, as this goes contrary to the spirit of the Gospels. She then goes on to explain that feeling and believing are different.

I have sometimes felt terribly alone, but I believed the opposite to be true. Belief proved right. Is it theologically acceptable to say that the same was true of Christ during His agony?[/quote]
I think that's kind of the point of reciting the psalm. It expresses deep pain and anquish at God's seeming abandonment, yet sees through to the eventual triumph in the end. It expresses the reality of Christ's Passion and redeeming death beautifully.

[thessalonian]

Most protestants say that David did not really loose his salvation when he sinned with Bethsheba, yet he quite obviously had a down time then. Psalm 51 says "restore to me the joy of thy salvatoin" so if Protestants believe that he was not lost at this time, it is then quite posible that one can suffer as Mother T did and still have salvation. I believe there are other psalms and some passages in Isaiha and Jerimiah that could be used to defend Mother T with regard to these current claims against her.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Budge' post='1380528' date='Sep 7 2007, 04:25 PM']Yeah I know who Al is.

Actually heres another quote from that article...
I totally agree.[/quote]


I totally agree as well but my agreement does not have prejudice in it. You didn't answer the contradiction to your thread I noticed. Nothing new.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1381413' date='Sep 8 2007, 09:28 PM']The statement about the Psalm is an established tradition of the Church, and has more basis than your opinion.
Read the psalm in its entirety.
I don't think it mere coincidence that Christ upon his death should recite a psalm regarded as Messianic prophecy fortelling His passion and ending with the establishment of God's rule.

The people responding to Him misinterpret Him and are mocking and jeering at Him. They should not be taken as models of interpretation.

While Christ greatly and truly suffered, doubt is an act of the will. Christ could have never truly thought His Father would abandon Him.
While it may be fashionable for "liberal Christians" to believe in a flawed, weak, doubtful "all-too-human-Christ," we know that Christ was also Divine and perfect. A doubting Christ would be a God in schism with Himself, which is absurd.[/quote]
I would have ended this one with the words of "No separation, no confusion, no division..." Aka, Hypostatic Union