Why Is Doubt Considered A Good Thing In The Catholic Church

[Mateo el Feo]

Maybe it would be better if St. Paul "down played" his Christianity and became more protestant for Budge. Alas, American protestantism is quite a contrast from Biblical Christianity...

[Socrates]

Okay, once more, since Budge is apparently slow pretty slow on the uptake, I Cor. 9:27:[quote][b]I CHASTISE my body[/b] and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps when I have preached to others I myself should be castaway.[/quote]
Paul says that HE HIMSELF chastises HIS body, not that others chastise his body.

Budge, what part of "I chastise my body" do you not understand?

The point of chastisement of one's body is to [b]bring it into subjection[/b], in other words, to remind it who'se boss by denying it physical comfort.

That's the point of the cilia, etc., just a discipline to subject the body, and remind us of Christ's sufferings, and Opus Dei's founder says this discipline is to be done lightly - they don't beat themselves to a bloody pulp - that's hollywood nonsense. Heck, I put myself through more pain in a typical day's workout.

Christ Himself fasted in the desert for forty days and forty nights.
That has to do far more punishment to the body than any of the chastisements you've mentioned. Ask any doctor!
And the fasting in biblical times was serious stuff - it wasn't just forgoing the jelly donuts!

Likewise, the sack-cloth mentioned in the Bible, worn as a sign of repentence - it was very scratchy, uncomfortable stuff, irritating to the skin.

But hey, it's good that we now have Budge, to tell us exactly what does and doesn't please God.

[Budge]

Ok go beat yourself Socrates if you think it will make "god" love you more.

Take a few cold showers, sleep on a board and wear a hair shirt.

Maybe you can take it all the way and go Hindu and sleep on a board of nails.

Your choice.

St. Paul while he may have done Biblical fasting, something that is different from beating the tar out of one self and to be done with smile on ones face instead of sackclothe and ashses did not beat himself or believe he had to do these works to earn salvation.
[quote]That's the point of the cilia, etc., just a discipline to subject the body, and remind us of Christ's sufferings, and Opus Dei's founder says this discipline is to be done lightly - they don't beat themselves to a bloody pulp - that's hollywood nonsense. Heck, I put myself through more pain in a typical day's workout.[/quote]

Oh so a light beating is good, a bruise and bloody one not?

Ok that makes about as much sense as the rest of your posts.

There are witnesses who say that Escivera beat himself bloody even if he did not force his followers to go that far.

You very well might worship a "god" that loves to see you suffer for sufferings sake rather then any true prayer--fasting, chastisement, for the sake of the gospel...

As I have said before, as a child I realized the Catholic "god" was an ogre. Youre not doing much to supress that view but doing more to back it up.

[Mateo el Feo]

As so often is the case, more willful ignorance from Budge.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Budge' post='1375554' date='Sep 1 2007, 11:32 AM']Ok go beat yourself Socrates if you think it will make "god" love you more.

Take a few cold showers, sleep on a board and wear a hair shirt.

Maybe you can take it all the way and go Hindu and sleep on a board of nails.

Your choice.

St. Paul while he may have done Biblical fasting, something that is different from beating the tar out of one self and to be done with smile on ones face instead of sackclothe and ashses did not beat himself or believe he had to do these works to earn salvation.
Oh so a light beating is good, a bruise and bloody one not?

Ok that makes about as much sense as the rest of your posts.

There are witnesses who say that Escivera beat himself bloody even if he did not force his followers to go that far.

You very well might worship a "god" that loves to see you suffer for sufferings sake rather then any true prayer--fasting, chastisement, for the sake of the gospel...

As I have said before, as a child I realized the Catholic "god" was an ogre. Youre not doing much to supress that view but doing more to back it up.[/quote]


Budge,

Those who FEED on the MEAT of the WORD of GOD, much is EXPECTED of THEM.

Luke 12:48
48 But someone who does not know, and then does something wrong, will be punished only lightly. [b]When someone has been given much, much will be required in return; AND WHEN SOMEONE HAS BEEN ENTRUSTED WITH MUCH, EVEN MORE WILL BE REQUIRED. [/b]

Hebrews 5
[b]13Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, IS NOT acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. [/b]
[b]14But solid food is for the mature[/b], who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

Those who are SIPPING on MILK are [b]not[/b] MATURE and UNABLE to COMPRENEND nor GRASP the MEAT of the WORD of GOD; hence we don't expect this to MAKE SENSE to YOU.

Edited September 1, 2007 by "Kyrie eleison"

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1375554' date='Sep 1 2007, 11:32 AM']As I have said before, as a child I realized the Catholic "god" was an ogre.[/quote]

Then you never did know the Catholic God.

Our God wants us to win the war against the devil. Christ already beat Him, but we have to accept that victory. Christ bids us to heaven, the devil bids us to hell. The devil tempts us and tries to bribe us. Christ does not. Christ offers Himself. We must choose whether we will follow after lies and sinful pleasures or follow after Christ. Despite our knowledge that Christ is of surpassing value, it is hard for us to choose Him, because we are stubborn and seek our own will. So we start slowly, by choosing not to entertain the evil desires, then by fighting them, even to the point of blood, as St. Paul did, and if that means fasting, if that means penance, all to keep us from choosing the devil and his ways, then it is worth it, because Jesus Christ is of far greater value than all the empty promises of the devil. So pardon us, Budge, if we are too busy engaging the devil, too busy fleeing to Christ by choosing to starve our greedy appetites, but it is for love of Him. Just as an adulteress must give up her other men, and when they come looking for her, must confront them and tell them no, must take abuse, verbal, perhaps even physical, from them, and suffer, all because she wishes to return to her rightful husband...just as that adulteress suffers willingly for her love, so we suffer willingly for ours.

It's written all over our hearts; it's written all over the Bible. It's what we're supposed to do. It's the only way to win the battle.

God bless,

Micah

[Socrates]

[quote name='Budge' post='1375554' date='Sep 1 2007, 10:32 AM']Ok go beat yourself Socrates if you think it will make "god" love you more.

Take a few cold showers, sleep on a board and wear a hair shirt.

Maybe you can take it all the way and go Hindu and sleep on a board of nails.

Your choice.

St. Paul while he may have done Biblical fasting, something that is different from beating the tar out of one self and to be done with smile on ones face instead of sackclothe and ashses did not beat himself or believe he had to do these works to earn salvation.
Oh so a light beating is good, a bruise and bloody one not?

Ok that makes about as much sense as the rest of your posts.

There are witnesses who say that Escivera beat himself bloody even if he did not force his followers to go that far.

You very well might worship a "god" that loves to see you suffer for sufferings sake rather then any true prayer--fasting, chastisement, for the sake of the gospel...

As I have said before, as a child I realized the Catholic "god" was an ogre. Youre not doing much to supress that view but doing more to back it up.[/quote]
No one says these disciplines cause God to love us more, or themselves earn us salvation.

St. Paul does not say what exactly he did to chastise his flesh, but the fact is that he did chastise his own flesh. Thus, your saying that chastisements of the flesh are displeasing to God is shown to be nonsense.

They are simply a discipline that can help keep some focused on God, rather than falling into fleshly temptations and comforts.

As I've pointed out, Christ Himself fasted in the desert for forty days, and said that a time would come for fasting.

You have yet to explain why light beatings and such are so displeasing to Our Lord, while denying the body needed nourishment to the point of near starvation is not.
It is your postings that make no sense.

[Dismas]

Imagine if you will, a 30 year old guy, who stands 6' 0", weighs 260 lbs, and hasn't worked out in well over a decade. He also loves fatty food, sugar, caffeine and beer. The funny thing is, that after stumbling upon some resolve, he decides to work out.

The first day, he goes on the treadmill for a half hour and drags himself to the shower, and passes out at home, exhausted.

The second day, he wakes up pretty fresh, and decides to lift weights. Now he goes through this rather systematically, and works most of his muscle groups. He's sore, but he tries to spend another half hour on the bicycle. He drags his sore and exhausted body home, and goes to bed.

The third day, he gasps in pain upon waking up. He stumbles over to get some Advil, then notices he feels cramped up and weak. Today he decides that stretching is in order. Now stretching is uncomfortable on the best of days, but the morning after lifting weights, it's excruciating.

On the fourth day, he goes back on the treadmill, and pushes himself for 45 minutes of interval running. Still pushing, he spends a few minutes on the punching bag, then goes back to stretching.

On the fifth day, you guessed it, he goes back to weights. He doesn't stop until nearly every muscle is twitching and sore.

This continues, now consider his shape after a few months of this sort of routine. Sure, it's really hard to start up, and the pain usually makes most people quit before a month is out. For those who keep going, however, the results pay off. Sure, that guy could have lived a healthy life with a decent span, but the quality of life he leads by putting himself through all that exercise is so much better.

Some people don't get fasting and mortification, of course, there are people who don't get exercising either.

Edited September 2, 2007 by Dismas

[Dismas]

Is doubt considered a good thing in the Catholic Church? No.

Doubt is a physical evil, but not a moral one, unless we choose doubt.

Fear is like doubt, and it isn't morally evil to have fear. Choosing fear is morally evil, and it's called cowardice. Choosing against fear is a moral good, and it is called courage.

Having doubt, and choosing against it is called Faith.

Just like Love isn't some soft fuzzy feeling, that once it goes away, well, a couple might as well break up or divorce, Faith isn't a feeling either. Just as Love is a continuous choice, even when the honeymoon is over, Faith is a choice, and when it is chosen it has power.

Yes, Mother Theresa wrestled with doubts far darker than any of us, even Budge, has. That she chose God even in that darkness gave great power to her ministry.

As for Budge, since you are a true Christian witnessing to us Catholic "heathens", go to some forsaken hellhole of a city like Calcutta, with only 10 cents and the clothes on your back to your name, and you show us how much better a true Christian can manage.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1375932' date='Sep 1 2007, 09:03 PM']Then you never did know the Catholic God.

Our God wants us to win the war against the devil. Christ already beat Him, but we have to accept that victory. Christ bids us to heaven, the devil bids us to hell. The devil tempts us and tries to bribe us. Christ does not. Christ offers Himself. We must choose whether we will follow after lies and sinful pleasures or follow after Christ. Despite our knowledge that Christ is of surpassing value, it is hard for us to choose Him, because we are stubborn and seek our own will. So we start slowly, by choosing not to entertain the evil desires, then by fighting them, even to the point of blood, as St. Paul did, and if that means fasting, if that means penance, all to keep us from choosing the devil and his ways, then it is worth it, because Jesus Christ is of far greater value than all the empty promises of the devil. So pardon us, Budge, if we are too busy engaging the devil, too busy fleeing to Christ by choosing to starve our greedy appetites, but it is for love of Him. Just as an adulteress must give up her other men, and when they come looking for her, must confront them and tell them no, must take abuse, verbal, perhaps even physical, from them, and suffer, all because she wishes to return to her rightful husband...just as that adulteress suffers willingly for her love, so we suffer willingly for ours.

It's written all over our hearts; it's written all over the Bible. It's what we're supposed to do. It's the only way to win the battle.

God bless,

Micah[/quote]
Amen, brotha.

[T-Bone _]

[quote name='Budge' post='1375554' date='Sep 1 2007, 09:32 AM']As I have said before, as a child I realized the Catholic "god" was an ogre. Youre not doing much to supress that view but doing more to back it up.[/quote]

Did your Ouija board tell you this?

[Budge]

[quote]No one says these disciplines cause God to love us more, or themselves earn us salvation.[/quote]

So why do them?

Why beat yourself or wear the clicie? Give me a reason.

St. Paul did not beat himself. He may have been speaking of withholding his flesh from sin in that verse. But it has nothing to do with Catholic fantasties about corporal mortification, {masochism}.
[quote]You have yet to explain why light beatings and such are so displeasing to Our Lord, while denying the body needed nourishment to the point of near starvation is not.
It is your postings that make no sense.[/quote]

Fasting is different from beating the stuffing out of yourself.

[quote]Did your Ouija board tell you this?[/quote]

Actually when us Catholic kids played Ouija, we called up SAINTS on the board.

Hey having been indoctrinated into contact "familiar spirits" for *help",

what did we know?

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1377886' date='Sep 4 2007, 04:30 PM']Why beat yourself or wear the clicie? Give me a reason.

Fasting is different from beating the stuffing out of yourself.[/quote]Words like "beating the stuffing out of yourself" betray your ignorance on this subject. But, I tell you what: you spend 40 days without food in the desert and I'll follow the actual practice of wearing a cilice (i.e. hairshirt) and we'll see how each practice affects our bodies' health. While we're going through this 40 day exercise, I'll make it a point during my prayers to ask St. John the Baptist why he wore a sackcloth (latin=[i]cilicium[/i], go figure).


[quote name='Budge' post='1377886' date='Sep 4 2007, 04:30 PM']Actually when us Catholic kids played Ouija, we called up SAINTS on the board.[/quote]That would be "we" Catholic kids. Apparently your religious education is on par with your English grammar education.

Honestly, take some ownership for your own bad decisions and stop blaming the Church. Heck, I made my own mistakes when I was a kid, but I wouldn't attribute them to my family's religion, because I can take responsibility for my decisions.

[T-Bone _]

[quote name='Budge' post='1377886' date='Sep 4 2007, 01:30 PM']Actually when us Catholic kids played Ouija, we called up SAINTS on the board.

Hey having been indoctrinated into contact "familiar spirits" for *help",

what did we know?[/quote]

So when you violated Church teachings, and contacted what were (according to doctrine (ooops, more "paperwork" ), at best your own subconscious delusions, and at worst demons, that was the fault of the Church? Or was it that you never paid attention in Church, nor did you ever care to learn what the Church really teaches.

[Budge]

Hey I never said it was right to do. We were dabbling with the occult. Sure we had a few warnings not to touch Ouija boards, I was 11 years old.

Anyhow why would us kids, think of calling up Catholic saints on it?

Think about that.

talking to "familiar spirits" is wrong if you do it without a board with letters or with one.

[T-Bone _]

[quote name='Budge' post='1378153' date='Sep 4 2007, 06:17 PM']Anyhow why would us kids, think of calling up Catholic saints on it?[/quote]

Because you were poorly Catechized? Honestly--you're the only alleged Catholic I have ever met that has used a Ouija board.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1377886' date='Sep 4 2007, 03:30 PM']So why do them?

Why beat yourself or wear the clicie? Give me a reason.[/quote]

I gave you a reason. As always, you've ignored my answer because you can't refute it.

[quote]St. Paul did not beat himself. He may have been speaking of withholding his flesh from sin in that verse. But it has nothing to do with Catholic fantasties about corporal mortification, {masochism}.
Fasting is different from beating the stuffing out of yourself.[/quote]

St. Paul resisted sin to the point of shedding blood, did he not? If you'd actually considered what I wrote above, you'd realize why mortification is no different.

[quote]Actually when us Catholic kids played Ouija, we called up SAINTS on the board.

Hey having been indoctrinated into contact "familiar spirits" for *help",

what did we know?[/quote]

As for calling up saints on the Ouija board, I highly doubt you were asking for their help as saints...most people playing that game are asking questions and seeking a sort of secret knowledge. We're not gnostics. We don't believe in that carp. We ask the saints to help us, not to give us secret knowledge, and we do it through the Holy Spirit of God, not through demons.

You are entirely incapable of differentiating between Catholicism and your own misguided past.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='T-Bone _' post='1378158' date='Sep 4 2007, 08:21 PM']Because you were poorly Catechized? Honestly--you're the only alleged Catholic I have ever met that has used a Ouija board.[/quote]
I used one when I was a little kid. Didn't think it was anything more than a bunch of nonsense and make-believe. Of course, now I know better...but still, I don't think that most kids are intending to contact demons through them.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Budge' post='1377886' date='Sep 4 2007, 02:30 PM']So why do them?

Why beat yourself or wear the clicie? Give me a reason.[/quote]
As St. Paul said, to subjegate the flesh. It is easier to resist temptation and endure hardships if we deny the body legitimate comforts.

[quote]St. Paul did not beat himself. He may have been speaking of withholding his flesh from sin in that verse. But it has nothing to do with Catholic fantasties about corporal mortification, {masochism}.[/quote]
Your own assertion. [b]Chastise[/b] means to punish, as by beating. It means more than simply not sinning, which should be obvious to the Christian anyway.
You tend to water down the literal meaning of Bible verses to suit your own ideas - guess old UU habits die hard.

[quote]Fasting is different from beating the stuffing out of yourself.[/quote]
No one's dicusssing "beating the stuffing out of yourself." And this is just me, but personally, I'd take wearing a cilice over going without food in the desert for forty days and forty nights!

And John the Baptist fasted and wore a hairshirt.
But apparently John's acts of self-mortification attracted the condemnation of the self-righteous in his time as well.
"For John came neither eating nor drinking; and they say: He hath a devil." ~ Matt. 11:18

Edited September 5, 2007 by Socrates

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1378217' date='Sep 4 2007, 10:28 PM']"For John came neither eating nor drinking; and they say: He hath a devil." ~ Matt. 11:18[/quote]Interesting quote. There may not have been "Independent Fundamentalist Baptists" 2000 years ago, but I think we're seeing the same spirit of attacks against Christianity today from Budge.