Time Magazine Article On Teen Girl Purity

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1607067' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:11 AM']Again, if one could be [b]satisfied[/b] with one's individual self, that means he/she could handle lifelong celibacy and he/she would be wearing a collar/veil or on the road to it. Take it from the group of people who've had to discern this issue the most.[/quote]

Hmm. I think that you're looking at this word a little differently than what the girls are, bud.

You're reading "satisfied with oneself" as "needing nothing more". I think that what they're meaning is "being happy with oneself". This sounds to me like sound psychological advice, so I have a feeling that it's not heretical, either.

Further, I've seen them so far agree that we shouldn't just wait around, either, but be proactive. Discernment happens before and during. Sounds good to me.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1607099' date='Jul 23 2008, 11:28 PM']And what do [i]they[/i] base it on? Personal speculation or official church teaching? Looking to God for help is not the same as God micromanaging our lives. At least I've quoted CCC 2230 to show we choose our own spouses.[/quote]
How is asking God for help in finding a spouse the same as asking God to micromanage our lives?

[Norseman82]

[quote name='picchick' post='1607061' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:09 AM']Ok you seem very angry.....I am not sure why.
Wrong...being content with being single IS NOT the same as being a priest. Totally not the same. Being a priest is a vocation. Totally different. One does not say, "I am content to be single so I am going to be a priest. Many priests also struggle with the fact that they will not have a family of their own. They are human. They CHOOSE the life a celibacy not become "content" with celibacy.[/quote]

And just what in the world would you know about discerning priesthood? I've been through it, so I would bet dinner at Outback that I would know more about it than you. They CHOOSE the life of celibcy based on whether they can be content with it; if they are not content with it, then a life of lifelong celibacy is not for them, meaning they should be married. So yes, the ability to handle celibacy is indeed tied to vocational discernment. OK, maybe not everyone who can handle lifelong celibacy will end up wearing collars/veils (I was speaking of my own discernment), but I was using exaggeration to make a point that ability to handle lifelong celibacy is more of a factor in vocational discernment than "being satisfied with one's self". That nonsense is a recent invention of the past half-century.

[quote name='picchick' post='1607061' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:09 AM']The reason why I am single right now (even though I am 23 and not 40-something) is that so many men right now are only willing to find the one that will have sex with them. Then it is over. So yeah, where does that leave a 23 year old virgin who is not going to change her ways? Yep, single. Are you going to blame the "feminazi lesbian career women" for the action of men?[/quote]

I'm referring to the whole "you don't need a spouse" mentality that has been around for the past 30-40 years in society.

[quote name='picchick' post='1607061' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:09 AM']What are you talking about? How did AC impose any female standards on males? And you make it sound like female standards are not healthy? Or are you saying that males standards are different? It is really sounding throughout your posts that you are being condenceding to females. It is no longer showing a difference between the two. I really wish you would stop.[/quote]

I thought I explained it previously. I thought momma's boy explained it. Please reread our posts. But yes, there is a difference in standards - not in standards of morality, but in terms of our natural gender dynamics.

[quote name='picchick' post='1607061' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:09 AM']Obsession is never good. Ever. Maybe you need to place things in God's hands a little more and rely less on yourself. I am not meaning that to be insulting but it is the truth. You are making it sound like God has nothing to do in finding a spouse. When I pray for my future spouse, I pray that God will help me find the right one. I ask for his guidance. He knows who it will be. He knows everything. To deny that is to deny the all-knowledgeable God. So if He knows who it will be, why not ask Him to help me find Him?[/quote]

Foreknowledge is not the same as choosing for us. People often use "God's will" or "what's meant to be" as an excuse to justify their own bad decisions or refusal to stick up for someone. Before we put the blame on God, we need to see what we've done wrong.

[quote name='picchick' post='1607061' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:09 AM']How have you been robbed of your immediate family early in life? How does this happen unless someone kills your immediate family?[/quote]

Close.

[quote name='picchick' post='1607061' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:09 AM']Although I agree, I think AC means happiness entirely for yourself and not for the other. I think there needs to be a balance of happiness. You must be happy yourself and you must be concerned with the happiness of your spouse.[/quote]

I'm glad to see we agree on something!

[quote name='picchick' post='1607061' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:09 AM']Um yes, you need to discern marriage!!! Is it not a vocation???? It is not something that you "fall into". Marriage is not for everyone. It isn't something that you try the relgious life and if it doesn't work out then you are automatically going to be married.[/quote]

You haven't read CCC 1603, have you? Please do so. Marriage is the vocation writtten into our nature, so what is there to discern except if we are being called to one of the "higher callings"?

[quote name='picchick' post='1607061' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:09 AM']Remember, there is also a vocation to the single life. There ARE people out there who die single. Some of those people are consecrated virgins. Some just felt called to live a single life.[/quote]

The Church has never [i]officially[/i] recognized single life as a vocation, except for consecrated life (see CCC 2233).

[quote name='picchick' post='1607061' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:09 AM']Are you meaning that they messed with nature?[/quote]

If they can handle lifelong celibacy, no, but there are a lot of people out there who do indeed criticize or second-guess others who seek marriage. This is not healthy, and after a while it adversely affects the males drive to pursue and shuts shy people down as they come out of their shell.

Why am I making such a big stink of this? For one thing, I was hoping that kris' generation would be spared the garbage I had to put up with. Second, here's where it ties in with the original post. One of the links (the one titled "Stop sugar-coating singleness") on the blog I linked to made reference to the fact that if we had people determine in their teens and early twenties if they could tolerate life without marriage, the virginity rate among unmarried people would increase.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='tinytherese' post='1607068' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:12 AM']That quote is something that either Jason or Crystalina Evert found that was anonymously written.[/quote]

If anonymously written, how can we verify it to be from God?

[Norseman82]

[quote name='mommas_boy' post='1607153' date='Jul 24 2008, 01:15 AM']Hmm. I think that you're looking at this word a little differently than what the girls are, bud.

You're reading "satisfied with oneself" as "needing nothing more". I think that what they're meaning is "being happy with oneself". This sounds to me like sound psychological advice, so I have a feeling that it's not heretical, either.

Further, I've seen them so far agree that we shouldn't just wait around, either, but be proactive. Discernment happens before and during. Sounds good to me.[/quote]

Maybe I am reading "satisfied with oneself" as "needing nothing more". Maybe I need an updated "male-female female-male" dictionary. But consider this: are we ever going to be compeltely satisfied with ourselves on this earth? Are we not constantly wanting to improve ourselves? Does that mean we are not ready for marriage? If we all waited for some arbitrary standard of "self-satisfaction", I really doubt that there would be many marriages.

Besides, I was just extremely angry that someone could potentially be blaspheming God by attributing a quote to Him that He did not make.

Edited July 24, 2008 by Norseman82

[Norseman82]

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1607155' date='Jul 24 2008, 01:17 AM']How is asking God for help in finding a spouse the same as asking God to micromanage our lives? [/quote]

It's not. I was addressing the point made that our spouses are chosen for us. That smacks too much of Calvinist predestination and leaves open the door to cultlike manipulation or people not taking responsibility for their own lives.

Edited July 24, 2008 by Norseman82

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1607176' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:41 AM']Maybe I am reading "satisfied with oneself" as "needing nothing more". Maybe I need an updated "male-female female-male" dictionary. But consider this: are we ever going to be compeltely satisfied with ourselves on this earth? Are we not constantly wanting to improve ourselves? Does that mean we are not ready for marriage? If we all waited for some arbitrary standard of "self-satisfaction", I really doubt that there would be many marriages.[/quote]
I don't think they even mean completely satisfied with oneself, but you need to be able to love yourself. If you're called to love your spouse as you love yourself, you need to love yourself first.

[picchick]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1607099' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:28 AM']And what do [i]they[/i] base it on? Personal speculation or official church teaching? Looking to God for help is not the same as God micromanaging our lives. At least I've quoted CCC 2230 to show we choose our own spouses.[/quote]

I never said for God to micromanage our lives. However, He knows others better than they know themselves and He knows me better than I know myself. Yes we choose our own spouses. But not without God's help. Why do you think that there is so much divorce right now? Why do you think that I am not married or dating someone yet? I have had plenty of opportunity. But why? because people do not consult God in their decisions. HE needs to be the base of everything we do. HE IS GOD no? I do not know what they base it off of honestly. But what I do know of myself, I totally trust God in helping me make my decision rather than myself.

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1607170' date='Jul 24 2008, 01:32 AM']And just what in the world would you know about discerning priesthood? I've been through it, so I would bet dinner at Outback that I would know more about it than you. They CHOOSE the life of celibcy based on whether they can be content with it; if they are not content with it, then a life of lifelong celibacy is not for them, meaning they should be married. So yes, the ability to handle celibacy is indeed tied to vocational discernment. OK, maybe not everyone who can handle lifelong celibacy will end up wearing collars/veils (I was speaking of my own discernment), but I was using exaggeration to make a point that ability to handle lifelong celibacy is more of a factor in vocational discernment than "being satisfied with one's self". That nonsense is a recent invention of the past half-century.[/quote]

oh yeah...that's right, I know nothing about becoming a priest...because I am a girl. So that means I know nothing about the feelings that they have.
How about the religious life? What is the difference between that and the priesthood in the whole being content with celibacy? How about the fact that I talk to priests? How about the fact that I talk to seminarians? Sure I never actually DISCERNED priesthood but that does not mean that I do not have a knowledge of what goes on. I don't want an outback dinner. They support PP.

Priesthood/religious life means that you can handle lifelong celibacy but that does not mean that every day of your life you will be content with it. I have TALKED to priests and religious nuns/fathers. I have TALKED to seminarians. Although none of them regret becoming priests or religious, there are times that they too struggle with celibacy and wish that they had family. Yet the fact that they followed their vocation has made them happy.
I'm referring to the whole "you don't need a spouse" mentality that has been around for the past 30-40 years in society.

I do not think that "life-long celibacy" has ANYTHING to do with "being satisfied with oneself." I agree that it is a part of the discernment but it is not the sole base of discernment. "Oh I am single for the rest of my life, I think I'll be a priest/religious." That is what it seems that you are saying.

I have had to great aunts who died single. They had every opportunity in the world to be married but the did not feel it was right. Some people just remain single their whole life.

Am I prepared to do so if it is God's Will? Yes, I am. If I do not find the spouse that is out there then yes I am prepared to die single. However, this is not going to stop me from finding my spouse. But I think that there will come a point in my life that I will stop if I do not find him. But I do know people who give up way to early and this indeed saddens me.


[quote]I thought I explained it previously. I thought momma's boy explained it. Please reread our posts. But yes, there is a difference in standards - not in standards of morality, but in terms of our natural gender dynamics.[/quote]
I will go back and reread. Sorry.



[quote]Foreknowledge is not the same as choosing for us. People often use "God's will" or "what's meant to be" as an excuse to justify their own bad decisions or refusal to stick up for someone. Before we put the blame on God, we need to see what we've done wrong.[/quote]

But this doesn't seem to have anything to do with the face that God has someone out there for us.

Tell me then, if God does not choose our spouse, how do we know who is the right one to marry? Why is it that we do not marry the first person we fall in love with etc.? It is because for some reason it is not the Will of God.





[quote]I'm glad to see we agree on something![/quote]
YAY!



[quote]You haven't read CCC 1603, have you? Please do so. Marriage is the vocation writtten into our nature, so what is there to discern except if we are being called to one of the "higher callings"?[/quote]
I have not yet...but I have the Baltimore Catechism memorized from school. There is the consecrated virgin.



[quote]The Church has never [i]officially[/i] recognized single life as a vocation, except for consecrated life (see CCC 2233).[/quote]
Fine, consecrated life. And those are lay people who still live in the world.



[quote]If they can handle lifelong celibacy, no, but there are a lot of people out there who do indeed criticize or second-guess others who seek marriage. This is not healthy, and after a while it adversely affects the males drive to pursue and shuts shy people down as they come out of their shell.

Why am I making such a big stink of this? For one thing, I was hoping that kris' generation would be spared the garbage I had to put up with. Second, here's where it ties in with the original post. One of the links (the one titled "Stop sugar-coating singleness") on the blog I linked to made reference to the fact that if we had people determine in their teens and early twenties if they could tolerate life without marriage, the virginity rate among unmarried people would increase.[/quote]

We have other garbage that we have to deal with. You are right that it is wrong to second guess OTHERS who seek marriage. It is none of their buisness...they do not know the conversations that the person has had with God. There is a difference however, of second guessing or critizing a marriage that you are not feeling right about. For example, if one of my friends was getting married to someone I knew was not going to be good to them (abuse physical, emotional, financially), I would definitely talk to my friend but that would not mean I would make the decision for them.

If marriage is written into our souls as you have said, (rather than a natural attraction) then why would teens and people in their early twenties be content to be unmarried? ESPECIALLY teens.

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1607179' date='Jul 24 2008, 01:43 AM']It's not. I was addressing the point made that our spouses are chosen for us. That smacks too much of Calvinist predestination and leaves open the door to cultlike manipulation or people not taking responsibility for their own lives.[/quote]

Not if you have true intentions. I take full responsibility for my actions. Yet God guides my decisions through prayer. When something goes wrong or bad (my ex and I breaking up for example) it is natural to blame God AT FIRST. It is part of the healing process to be mad and angry. However, after prayer I realize that God's hand was in it and I am happy because He knew that it would not be good for me or for him.

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1607183' date='Jul 24 2008, 01:50 AM']I don't think they even mean completely satisfied with oneself, but you need to be able to love yourself. If you're called to love your spouse as you love yourself, you need to love yourself first.[/quote]

YES,


There is much more I would like to say but I gotta go to work

Meg

[J.P.]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1607176' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:41 AM']Maybe I am reading "satisfied with oneself" as "needing nothing more". Maybe I need an updated "male-female female-male" dictionary. But consider this: are we ever going to be compeltely satisfied with ourselves on this earth? Are we not constantly wanting to improve ourselves? Does that mean we are not ready for marriage? If we all waited for some arbitrary standard of "self-satisfaction", I really doubt that there would be many marriages.[/quote]

Agreed.

Single people are, I believe, God's pinch hitters so to speak. Still, one could spend their entire lives bettering themselves for their future spouse and never feel ready for it. Is that a call to singleness? Who knows. Ultimately I think that at some point we need to choose what we're going to do. God is not going to punish us for making "the wrong choice".

I think that punishment is a fear that too many of the faithful have.

Edited July 24, 2008 by J.P.

[CatherineM]

It took me 43 years to find my husband, and then I only did because I took Fr. Groeschel's advice and tried Ave Maria. There is no doubt in my mind that he was the one that God intended for me, and there is also no doubt in my mind that I wouldn't have been able to meet him any other way.

One of the few bits of relationship advice I received from my father was that you should have a life before you share your life, and you should be sharing your life before you create a life. It just took me a bit longer to develop a life worth sharing with anyone.

[J.P.]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1607370' date='Jul 24 2008, 10:52 AM']It took me 43 years to find my husband, and then I only did because I took Fr. Groeschel's advice and tried Ave Maria. There is no doubt in my mind that he was the one that God intended for me, and there is also no doubt in my mind that I wouldn't have been able to meet him any other way.

One of the few bits of relationship advice I received from my father was that you should have a life before you share your life, and you should be sharing your life before you create a life. It just took me a bit longer to develop a life worth sharing with anyone.[/quote]

Tough to argue with a testimony like that.

Each to his own. God ways of working are limitless. Infact, He's the most creative guy I know

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1607176' date='Jul 24 2008, 01:41 AM']Maybe I need an updated "male-female female-male" dictionary.[/quote]

When you find it, please let us know.

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1607176' date='Jul 24 2008, 01:41 AM']But consider this: are we ever going to be compeltely satisfied with ourselves on this earth? Are we not constantly wanting to improve ourselves? Does that mean we are not ready for marriage? If we all waited for some arbitrary standard of "self-satisfaction", I really doubt that there would be many marriages.[/quote]

Ok. Satisfaction as you understand it implies fulfillment, completion ... that to be "satisfied" with oneself is to be happy in having reached that arbitrary standard. You're right that we will never reach that standard (the "standard" here is sainthood), but it still stands to reason that one be happy with oneself before bringing another into the mix. Not in the sense that they are happy with a "completed work" in themselves, but that they love themselves. This seems like good psychological advice.

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1607176' date='Jul 24 2008, 01:41 AM']Besides, I was just extremely angry that someone could potentially be blaspheming God by attributing a quote to Him that He did not make.[/quote]

Agreed.

Aside from these points, you also seem to be taking issue with the Calvanism/predestinationism of the statement "God has someone for us in mind". As I see it, this is a matter of the debate between God's will and our own free will. If I remember right, the correct answer in this either-or conundrum, as with all things Catholic, is YES. That is to say, God's foreknowledge of our actions includes but does not destroy our free will. Our free will is a part of God's divine plan for our salvation.

In this case of finding "the one" (if there is only one ... to me, the [b]choice[/b] to love someone is more romantic/meaningful than the alternative), I think that means equal parts serendipity in meeting someone, choice to pursue, and then discernment of having made the right choice, in accordance with God's will.

I'm sorry if it seems like I flip-flopped my position on you, bud. I simply didn't understand how to reconcile the paradox that I outlined before, but I think that I get it now.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='J.P.' post='1607383' date='Jul 24 2008, 10:15 AM']Each to his own. God ways of working are limitless. Infact, He's the most creative guy I know [/quote]
+J.M.J.+
nice

[XIX]

[quote name='J.P.' post='1607339' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:17 PM']Agreed.

Single people are, I believe, God's pinch hitters so to speak.[/quote]
I don't really understand that analogy.

[J.P.]

[quote name='XIX' post='1607432' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:17 PM']I don't really understand that analogy. [/quote]

Sorry shoulda explained.

I once heard someone say during a vocations retreat that single people are able to fill in (pinch hit) for God when he need it. Someone who has commitments to a family/spouse, or to their order may not be able to pick up and leave in a moments notice.

Simply put, single people are generally more flexible.

Hope that explains it

Edited July 24, 2008 by J.P.

[XIX]

We're utility players. And we're probably eligible at 5 different positions in Yahoo fantasy baseball.

[J.P.]

Right next to Marco Scutaro and Joe Inglett.

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='XIX' post='1607483' date='Jul 24 2008, 02:58 PM']We're utility players. And we're probably eligible at 5 different positions in Yahoo fantasy baseball.[/quote]

My thoughts exactly.

[XIX]

Having a terrific spouse is kinda like having LaDanian Tomlinson on your fantasy team.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1607370' date='Jul 24 2008, 10:52 AM']It took me 43 years to find my husband, and then I only did because I took Fr. Groeschel's advice and tried Ave Maria. There is no doubt in my mind that he was the one that God intended for me, and there is also no doubt in my mind that I wouldn't have been able to meet him any other way.

One of the few bits of relationship advice I received from my father was that you should have a life before you share your life, and you should be sharing your life before you create a life. It just took me a bit longer to develop a life worth sharing with anyone.[/quote]
That's kinda like James and I --we both looked at going to the same college, neither of us went there. And we've discussed how we would've HATED eachother if we had met then. And I honestly don't know if I would've talked to him, if I'd met him in person, rather than over the internet. It all happened exactly perfectly for us to meet and fall in love. It's kinda weird to look back at it all, and see how intricately things happened.