Self Abuse=mortal Sin?

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='Barbarus' post='1613231' date='Jul 30 2008, 04:31 PM']OK, well, that caveat was never stated. You would also have to assume that the person is acting voluntarily, btw.

As was stated in someone else's post, the better question to ask is whether this is grave matter, not whether it is mortal sin. Voluntariness and full knowledge are going to be the same sorts of evaluation from sin to sin; the question is the gravity of the sin. The determination as to whether a given action is a mortal sin or is made on a case-by-case basis by evaluating each of the three criteria that have been listed.[/quote]

well, from a realistic standpoint, I don't see why someone would inflict self-harm unless they were deeply troubled, which would be mitigating factor.

[Barbarus]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1613232' date='Jul 30 2008, 05:33 PM']well, from a realistic standpoint, I don't see why someone would inflict self-harm unless they were deeply troubled, which would be mitigating factor.[/quote]
It would influence the determination of voluntariness, it's true. And might even influence the element of "knowing." If someone is not properly able to exercise reason, can they really "know"?

[MRSannie]

So, would cigarette smoking be considered 'self-abuse'??? What about tatoos and piercings?


I am familiar with self-mutilation due to mental illness. This can be depression, eating disorders or other MI. In those cases it is much like a child scratching their chickenpox and getting a scar.

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='MRSannie' date='Jul 30 2008, 05:35 PM' post='1613278']
[i]So, would cigarette smoking be considered 'self-abuse'??? What about tatoos and piercings? [/i]

It is a sin to willfully, diliberately start smoking, as it would be a sin to willfully, dilliberately overeat (gluttony).

Scripture warns against tatooing and excessive piercings is a mutilation of the body as is cross-dressing, which is also admonished in Scripture.

Edited July 30, 2008 by friendofJPII

[MRSannie]

just wondering, what constitutes 'excessive piercings' ? I have pierced ears. My daughter has double pierced ears, a belly button piercing and a nose piercing.

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='MRSannie' post='1613386' date='Jul 30 2008, 09:01 PM']just wondering, what constitutes 'excessive piercings' ? I have pierced ears. My daughter has double pierced ears, a belly button piercing and a nose piercing.[/quote]

[img]http://www.lyzyrdgyzyrd.com/images/piercings.jpg[/img]

Maybe?

[icelandic_iceskater]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1611143' date='Jul 28 2008, 10:36 PM']"Self-abuse" normally means masturbation. When I voted, I thought this was what it referred to.
But self-mutilation is also a mortal sin, as the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. Deliberately harming one's self is regarded as a sin against the fifth commandment.[/quote]oh, my bad. Thanks for correcting me.

thanks to everyone who's taken the time to reply.

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='MRSannie' post='1613386' date='Jul 30 2008, 08:01 PM']just wondering, what constitutes 'excessive piercings' ? I have pierced ears. My daughter has double pierced ears, a belly button piercing and a nose piercing.[/quote]

You are going to probably lash out at me for saying this, but the belly button piercing and nose piercing (unless it has been done for some religous or cultural reason) is not in good taste. Pierced ears are fine. If I had a daughter, I would only allow her one hole.

[mommas_boy]

To be honest, I can't say with any certainty if that's male or female ...

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='mommas_boy' post='1613392' date='Jul 30 2008, 08:03 PM'][img]http://www.lyzyrdgyzyrd.com/images/piercings.jpg[/img]

Maybe? [/quote]


EWW!!!!

[Socrates]

[quote name='Balthazor' post='1611357' date='Jul 29 2008, 07:00 AM']YOu know SO-Crates.....

I was thinkin the same thing. That they were talking about masturbation *gasp* (I actually used the word) And I also voted that it is a mortal sin.

However I am intrigued about your inquiry about self mutilation...... does this also mean that the "penitents" those that flagellate themselves or have themselves crucified are also sinners?
If you look at some of the gruesome acts of penitence that Saint Rose of Lima did you have to wonder about this topic, because some of the acts she did would most definately fall into the category of self mutilation.[/quote]
Personally I don't think the more excessive or self-damaging forms of penance are necessarily a good idea, but that's between those people and God. And there's a difference between deliberately causing oneself discomfort and harming/mutilating one's body.
However, penances done specifically for one's sins or those of others are a different matter than self-harming or mutilation for its own sake or no good reason.
We are to love others as we love ourselves (which implies treating both others and our own selves with respect and care).

For comparison, if I break another man's jaw while defending my sister, that might be a good thing.
If I break his jaw simply because I want to hurt someone and cause pain, that would be a mortally sinful act.

[friendofJPII]

[[i]quote name='Socrates' date='Jul 30 2008, 08:57 PM' post='1613473']
Personally I don't think the more excessive or self-damaging forms of penance are necessarily a good idea, but that's between those people and God. And there's a difference between deliberately causing oneself discomfort and harming/mutilating one's body.[/i]

Seriously, tho, how many people are doing "severe penances?" Most people go into a tizzy if they have to face a day without TV. If only severe penances were a problem in our Church. Just like so many newlyweds are fighting for the right to live in chaste marriages!

Edited July 31, 2008 by friendofJPII

[Socrates]

[quote name='mommas_boy' post='1613392' date='Jul 30 2008, 08:03 PM'][img]http://www.lyzyrdgyzyrd.com/images/piercings.jpg[/img]

Maybe? [/quote]
Creepy!

Should be the next Batman villain.

[mortify]

my bad... nothing's a sin anymo

[truthfinder]

It depends to the degree in which it is carried out and the mental state of the person. It can depend if it is an addiction.

[Balthazor]

I think that the extreme body modification is edging on the outskirts of self-abuse. As said before it can be a full fledged addicition. (keep in mind that the term addiciton implies that there are negative consequences as a result of the action.) in other cases people just do it because they like the look of it.

I think that those who just go out and get a tattoo or peircing because they like it are not in too much danger of sin. Most people do not over analyse actions in regard to sin that much and most are completly ignorant of whether it could be a sin. So at best we are talking a minor offense.... a venial sin.

However the real question is when self-abuse or mortification or self-inflicted wounds put your life in direct danger. IN this case we would be dealing with something that needs to be analyzed and thought over very carefully. Because suicide is a mortal sin, and I am uncertain whether self-mortification or self abuse ending in death would classify.

Can I get a church scholar in here to clear up the question?

Edited July 31, 2008 by Balthazor

[Balthazor]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1613397' date='Jul 30 2008, 09:05 PM']You are going to probably lash out at me for saying this, but the belly button piercing and nose piercing (unless it has been done for some religous or cultural reason) is not in good taste. Pierced ears are fine. If I had a daughter, I would only allow her one hole.[/quote]

You mean one hole or one hole per ear?

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='Balthazor' post='1613795' date='Jul 31 2008, 03:22 AM']You mean one hole or one hole per ear? [/quote]

one hole per ear.

[MRSannie]

I would NEVER lash out at you!! Don't worry, as a parent of 18 years, I have finally learned that people mean well, they just don't always have the experience to back it up. No offense taken, and certainly I had the same opinion before I had kids.

The nose and the belly button happened after she was 18. From a parental perspective, she did discuss it with us, and she is a very good kid living in a world with so very much pressure to take risks. She knew we (dad and I) were opposed, but it IS legal, unlike the a)underage drinking, b)drunk driving, c)shoplifting, d)illegal drug dealing and use, e)cheating in school, etc. It is also a way to be 'radical' without long-term consequences (unlike premarital sex, etc. The nose will heal up in 3 days once removed (I cannot even see it when she takes it out) and the belly button will have a small scar.

We also forbade her to have a cartilage piercing. I am a medical person, and would rather see someone get their navel, lip or big toe pierced before the low-perfused ear cartilage. Dumb Dumb Dumb from a medical perspective.

I think 'poor taste' does not constitute 'mortal sin'. Bad hair dye jobs, hideous nailpolish colors, obesity, Chico's entire clothing line, are all examples of poor taste, but not necessarily 'sinful ways'. It is in 'poor taste' to have a picked-at face (acne) but millions of folks do it. In a way that is self-mutilation, as any dermatologist will tell you it is NOT GOOD to pick your acne.

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='MRSannie' post='1613831' date='Jul 31 2008, 07:30 AM']I would NEVER lash out at you!! Don't worry, as a parent of 18 years, I have finally learned that people mean well, they just don't always have the experience to back it up. No offense taken, and certainly I had the same opinion before I had kids.

The nose and the belly button happened after she was 18. From a parental perspective, she did discuss it with us, and she is a very good kid living in a world with so very much pressure to take risks. She knew we (dad and I) were opposed, but it IS legal, unlike the a)underage drinking, b)drunk driving, c)shoplifting, d)illegal drug dealing and use, e)cheating in school, etc. It is also a way to be 'radical' without long-term consequences (unlike premarital sex, etc. The nose will heal up in 3 days once removed (I cannot even see it when she takes it out) and the belly button will have a small scar.

We also forbade her to have a cartilage piercing. I am a medical person, and would rather see someone get their navel, lip or big toe pierced before the low-perfused ear cartilage. Dumb Dumb Dumb from a medical perspective.

I think 'poor taste' does not constitute 'mortal sin'. Bad hair dye jobs, hideous nailpolish colors, obesity, Chico's entire clothing line, are all examples of poor taste, but not necessarily 'sinful ways'. It is in 'poor taste' to have a picked-at face (acne) but millions of folks do it. In a way that is self-mutilation, as any dermatologist will tell you it is NOT GOOD to pick your acne.[/quote]

With great sensitivity, I make the following comments...

First of all, just because something is legal does not mean it a good idea. It is legal to have an abortion, it is legal to buy pornography. That does not mean it is moral.

There is also a difference between someone who struggles with a weight problem and someone who purposely mutilates their body through piercing/tatoos. The latter is chosen, but most people do not choose to be overweight.

I'm not sure if I would go so far as to say belly button and nose piercings are mortally sinful in and of themselves, but I do not think adorning oneself in that way is beneficial for the soul. (I believe this falls under the modesty issue). On the contrary, I think the opposite, esp. since such rings are often a sign of rebellion, and the navel ring definately carries sexual undertones. There are also many references in Scripture which indicate how a woman should dress.

I'm sure your daughter is a very nice girl, and being a young person myself, I understand the pressures she faces. If she was 18 when she had it done, there was virutally nothing you and your husband could do about it. I would recommend that you keep the situtation in prayer, however. Thankfully, she didn't do anything that can't be reveresed.

Edited July 31, 2008 by friendofJPII