The Vp Debate

[Mercy me]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1669217' date='Oct 3 2008, 10:47 AM']Having some modicum of education would seem to be, you know, a bare minimum requirement for political office. I infer from anyone's speech, not just Palin's, their level of education, which does not mean of course that one can't make mistakes. But if someone from NY or NJ says "ax" instead of "ask," that reflects on their level of education and, by extension, their critical thinking abilities. The noted conservative William Buckley is an excellent case in point. In short, speaking correctly implies thoughtfulness; speaking incorrectly implies some degree of non-thoughtfulness and/or mental laziness. Being non-thoughtful, mentally lazy, unthinking and incurious characterizes the current occupant of the White House and I don't want to "go there" again.[/quote]

That is a load of **** peddled in the northeast. Being from there and indoctrinated there I will say that you are very correct about that stereotypical bias about the rest of the country. Growing up people with accents automatically had lower IQs, especially southern accents. It is how it was. I admit it took me a very long time, more than 10 years , to realize that is it just what I said, a load of ****. It is false. Outside of the northeast regional accents are not indicative of ones level of education.

[peach_cube]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1669217' date='Oct 3 2008, 11:47 AM']Having some modicum of education would seem to be, you know, a bare minimum requirement for political office. I infer from anyone's speech, not just Palin's, their level of education, which does not mean of course that one can't make mistakes. But if someone from NY or NJ says "ax" instead of "ask," that reflects on their level of education and, by extension, their critical thinking abilities. The noted conservative William Buckley is an excellent case in point. In short, speaking correctly implies thoughtfulness; speaking incorrectly implies some degree of non-thoughtfulness and/or mental laziness. Being non-thoughtful, mentally lazy, unthinking and incurious characterizes the current occupant of the White House and I don't want to "go there" again.[/quote]

Wow. This statement wreaks of snobbery to me. Regional dialects do not make someone mentally lazy, non-thoughtful, unthinking and incurious. It will, however, help people figure out where you grew up. If someone says "ax" instead of "ask" it is more of indication of their upbringing than their intelligence. There are plenty of suburban white kids that speak correctly, but cannot use long division to save their lives.

A higher level of education does not equal a greater ability to lead.

[BG45]

Right now I'm willing to say Palin won the votes of people who wanted someone who could play act as a genuine human being and not a politician; however both of them were utterly inept and showed that neither of them is anywhere near ready to step in should their running mate unfortunately meet his end. Chuck Baldwin is looking better and better.

As to the topic of regional dialects, my other half's mother is certain that I'm nothing but a backwards hick even though she knows I lack the stereotypical West Virginian accent portrayed by the media. That said I can pull it off, but at the same time I can also talk like I'm from the Northeast, almost anywhere in the Mid-Atlantic, if I try the Midwest, and if I'm feeling a bit whimsical with a Dubliner accent. Would any of these accents make me any less college educated? Would any of these decrease my 128 IQ? No.

To imply someone's intelligence is based off an accent is a fallacious maneuver. If it were the case that an accent reflected one's intelligence, then there would be significantly less people in this nation in high technology fields.

[Hassan]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1669295' date='Oct 3 2008, 01:43 PM']The manner in which a person speaks reflects upon them, just as the manner in which a person dresses or his or her table manners reflect upon them. The point is, Sarah Palin may be the smartest person in the world but you would never know it because she can't pronounce the word "nuclear." Maybe I'm being naive but in my simple worldview, minimal qualification for the presidency includes a modicum of education and ability to communicate.


Yes, that's what I've been trying to say in this and other threads. McCain / Palin ≠ Catholic. That is not an endorsement of Obama. It simply means that because one is not going to vote for Obama then ipso facto one must vote for McCain / Palin.[/quote]


You ought to watch "I Claudius".

I don't care if Palin can say Nuclear; I honestly could not care any less. She has an accent, which should not reflect intelligence. My Russian Professor has trouble pronouncing a number of English words, she is quite fluent and recently was lecturing at Oxford on, I believe, Literary Realism in 19th century Russia. She cannot pronounce any number of English words; she is very, very intelligent.

Sarah Palin is not an ignoramus because she has an accent but because of her puzzling lack of curiosity, her apparent inability to string together a single coherent substantive response to a single penetrating question and many other things.

While I was starting to type this I remember Fareed Zakaria's wonderful dissection of her.

Palin Is Ready? Please.
McCain says that he always puts country first. In this important case, that is simply not true.


[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMDW0xVgewk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMDW0xVgewk[/url]


[i]Fareed Zakaria
NEWSWEEK
From the magazine issue dated Oct 6, 2008
Will someone please put Sarah Palin out of her agony? Is it too much to ask that she come to realize that she wants, in that wonderful phrase in American politics, "to spend more time with her family"? Having stayed in purdah for weeks, she finally agreed to a third interview. CBS's Katie Couric questioned her in her trademark sympathetic style. It didn't help. When asked how living in the state closest to Russia gave her foreign-policy experience, Palin responded thus:

"It's very important when you consider even national-security issues with Russia as Putin rears his head and comes into the airspace of the United States of America. Where—where do they go? It's Alaska. It's just right over the border. It is from Alaska that we send those out to make sure that an eye is being kept on this very powerful nation, Russia, because they are right there. They are right next to—to our state."

There is, of course, the sheer absurdity of the premise. Two weeks ago I flew to Tokyo, crossing over the North Pole. Does that make me an expert on Santa Claus? (Thanks, Jon Stewart.) But even beyond that, read the rest of her response. "It is from Alaska that we send out those …" What does this mean? This is not an isolated example. Palin has been given a set of talking points by campaign advisers, simple ideological mantras that she repeats and repeats as long as she can. ("We mustn't blink.") But if forced off those rehearsed lines, what she has to say is often, quite frankly, gibberish.

Couric asked her a smart question about the proposed $700 billion bailout of the American financial sector. It was designed to see if Palin understood that the problem in this crisis is that credit and liquidity in the financial system has dried up, and that that's why, in the estimation of Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson and Fed chairman Ben Bernanke, the government needs to step in to buy up Wall Street's most toxic liabilities. Here's the entire exchange:

COURIC: Why isn't it better, Governor Palin, to spend $700 billion helping middle-class families who are struggling with health care, housing, gas and groceries; allow them to spend more and put more money into the economy instead of helping these big financial institutions that played a role in creating this mess?

PALIN: That's why I say I, like every American I'm speaking with, were ill about this position that we have been put in where it is the taxpayers looking to bail out. But ultimately, what the bailout does is help those who are concerned about the health-care reform that is needed to help shore up our economy, helping the—it's got to be all about job creation, too, shoring up our economy and putting it back on the right track. So health-care reform and reducing taxes and reining in spending has got to accompany tax reductions and tax relief for Americans. And trade, we've got to see trade as opportunity, not as a competitive, scary thing. But one in five jobs being created in the trade sector today, we've got to look at that as more opportunity. All those things under the umbrella of job creation. This bailout is a part of that.

This is nonsense—a vapid emptying out of every catchphrase about economics that came into her head. Some commentators, like CNN's Campbell Brown, have argued that it's sexist to keep Sarah Palin under wraps, as if she were a delicate flower who might wilt under the bright lights of the modern media. But the more Palin talks, the more we see that it may not be sexism but common sense that's causing the McCain campaign to treat her like a time bomb.

Can we now admit the obvious? Sarah Palin is utterly unqualified to be vice president. She is a feisty, charismatic politician who has done some good things in Alaska. But she has never spent a day thinking about any important national or international issue, and this is a hell of a time to start. The next administration is going to face a set of challenges unlike any in recent memory. There is an ongoing military operation in Iraq that still costs $10 billion a month, a war against the Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan that is not going well and is not easily fixed. Iran, Russia and Venezuela present tough strategic challenges.

Domestically, the bailout and reform of the financial industry will take years and hundreds of billions of dollars. Health-care costs, unless curtailed, will bankrupt the federal government. Social Security, immigration, collapsing infrastructure and education are all going to get much worse if they are not handled soon.

And the American government is stretched to the limit. Between the Bush tax cuts, homeland-security needs, Iraq, Afghanistan and the bailout, the budget is looking bleak. Plus, within a few years, the retirement of the baby boomers begins with its massive and rising costs (in the trillions).

Obviously these are very serious challenges and constraints. In these times, for John McCain to have chosen this person to be his running mate is fundamentally irresponsible. McCain says that he always puts country first. In this important case, it is simply not true.

URL: [url="http://www.newsweek.com/id/161204"]http://www.newsweek.com/id/161204[/url][/i]

[dairygirl4u2c]

another reason palin lost the VP debate.
in addition to acting like she was just as throw money at education, and alterantive energy as biden, and as much as she acted like it was all the predatory lenders' fault and not the homebuyers etc.....
she acted like she was for civil benefits etc for gays.

(and she didn't respond to the "john mccain just wants to cut regulations on home industry" and lots of other reasons she lost as i mentioned earlier, on how her math doesn't add up on taxes)

biden only talked about civil benefits. he was for hospital visits etc, things he mentioned specifically that he thinks is protected constitutionally.
then palin basically said i agree with the hospital visits etc, and acted that she didn't want to oppose anything else,,,, she acted like she agreed, or at least didn't want to disagree. she also said she didn't want gay marraige. then biden said he didn't want gay marriage..... and then he said "since you don't disagree with all that civil stuff, it looks like we don't disagree on anything". and then they asked her if that was the case, and palin basically said "i don't believe in gay marriage" ie, basically she avoided the question.
i think palin didn't realize that she's suppose to be against that civil stuff, maybe she just didn't want to rock the boat. i wouldn't be surprised if it just hasn't clicked with her yet, that she's not being characteristically conservative until she does, and so she hasn't cookie cutter conservative on it yet.


IFILL: The next round of -- pardon me, the next round of questions starts with you, Sen. Biden. Do you support, as they do in Alaska, granting same-sex benefits to couples?

BIDEN: Absolutely. Do I support granting same-sex benefits? Absolutely positively. Look, in an Obama-Biden administration, there will be absolutely no distinction from a constitutional standpoint or a legal standpoint between a same-sex and a heterosexual couple.

The fact of the matter is that under the Constitution we should be granted -- same-sex couples should be able to have visitation rights in the hospitals, joint ownership of property, life insurance policies, et cetera. That's only fair.

It's what the Constitution calls for. And so we do support it. We do support making sure that committed couples in a same-sex marriage are guaranteed the same constitutional benefits as it relates to their property rights, their rights of visitation, their rights to insurance, their rights of ownership as heterosexual couples do.

IFILL: Governor, would you support expanding that beyond Alaska to the rest of the nation?

PALIN: Well, not if it goes closer and closer towards redefining the traditional definition of marriage between one man and one woman. And unfortunately that's sometimes where those steps lead.

But I also want to clarify, if there's any kind of suggestion at all from my answer that I would be anything but tolerant of adults in America choosing their partners, choosing relationships that they deem best for themselves, you know, I am tolerant and I have a very diverse family and group of friends and even within that group you would see some who may not agree with me on this issue, some very dear friends who don't agree with me on this issue.

But in that tolerance also, no one would ever propose, not in a McCain-Palin administration, to do anything to prohibit, say, visitations in a hospital or contracts being signed, negotiated between parties.

But I will tell Americans straight up that I don't support defining marriage as anything but between one man and one woman, and I think through nuances we can go round and round about what that actually means.

But I'm being as straight up with Americans as I can in my non- support for anything but a traditional definition of marriage.

IFILL: Let's try to avoid nuance, Senator. Do you support gay marriage?

BIDEN: No. Barack Obama nor I support redefining from a civil side what constitutes marriage. We do not support that. That is basically the decision to be able to be able to be left to faiths and people who practice their faiths the determination what you call it.

The bottom line though is, and I'm glad to hear the governor, I take her at her word, obviously, that she think there should be no civil rights distinction, none whatsoever, between a committed gay couple and a committed heterosexual couple. If that's the case, we really don't have a difference.

IFILL: Is that what your said?

PALIN: Your question to him was whether he supported gay marriage and my answer is the same as his and it is that I do not.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Mercy me' post='1669519' date='Oct 3 2008, 07:22 PM']That is a load of **** peddled in the northeast. Being from there and indoctrinated there I will say that you are very correct about that stereotypical bias about the rest of the country. Growing up people with accents automatically had lower IQs, especially southern accents. It is how it was. I admit it took me a very long time, more than 10 years , to realize that is it just what I said, a load of ****. It is false. Outside of the northeast regional accents are not indicative of ones level of education.[/quote]

Wow... that's weird. The people in the Northeast have the worst accents in the nation.

[Tinkerlina]

Haven't watched the whole thing yet but I was kind of insulted that Palin insinuated that the economy was so bad is because of middle america's debt...my student loans ain't the reason the economy is failing, lady. I also can't hear the word "hockey mom" one more time without puking and I thought it was really lame that she asked Senator Biden "Can I call you Joe?" I hate that fake "one of the people" stuff politicians pull. As for who won, I don't really know, but someone I know who works for the local republican party said that he thought Biden definitely won. I'll have to keep watching. I don't know-they're both lame but Palin's persona just grates on my nerves more. -Katie

[BG45]

Loved the "94 times voted to raise your taxes".

Um yeah, from fact check:

–23 were against proposed tax cuts.

— 7 were "for measures that would have lowered taxes for many, while raising them on a relative few, either corporations or affluent individuals."

– 11 were to increase taxes on people making more than $1 million a year, to help fund programs such as Head Start, school nutrition, or veterans' health care.

– 53 were votes on budget resolutions or amendments that "could not have resulted by themselves in raising taxes," though many "were clear statements of approval for increased taxes"

Edited October 4, 2008 by BG45

[Aloysius]

nah... she said soccer mom but not hockey mom. i would've noticed, i was looking for it for a bingo

edit: oh man! I missed it! just saw in the transcript she did say it! i woulda had a bingo!

[ardillacid]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1670332' date='Oct 4 2008, 04:11 PM']nah... she said soccer mom but not hockey mom. i would've noticed, i was looking for it for a bingo

edit: oh man! I missed it! just saw in the transcript she did say it! i woulda had a bingo![/quote]
Haha, I'm right as usual

[ardillacid]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1670235' date='Oct 4 2008, 12:31 PM']Haven't watched the whole thing yet but I was kind of insulted that Palin insinuated that the economy was so bad is because of middle america's debt...my student loans ain't the reason the economy is failing, lady. I also can't hear the word "hockey mom" one more time without puking and I thought it was really lame that she asked Senator Biden "Can I call you Joe?" I hate that fake "one of the people" stuff politicians pull. As for who won, I don't really know, but someone I know who works for the local republican party said that he thought Biden definitely won. I'll have to keep watching. I don't know-they're both lame but Palin's persona just grates on my nerves more. -Katie[/quote]
I believe the example she gave was a couple buying a $300k house when they could barely afford a 100k house. And I agree with her. Live withing your means.

[Didymus]

[quote name='notardillacid' post='1670681' date='Oct 5 2008, 03:58 AM']I believe the example she gave was a couple buying a $300k house when they could barely afford a 100k house. And I agree with her. Live withing your means. [/quote]

very few people can finance a house at the time when they can buy it.. i understand how your point applies to many other materials people own, but how does this apply to homes?

[Mercy me]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1670115' date='Oct 4 2008, 07:54 AM']Wow... that's weird. The people in the Northeast have the worst accents in the nation. [/quote]

I know! But I don't really hear them. There is a lot of snobbery especially in the city. How one speaks, where one went to school how one behaves are all very important. I never noticed it when I lived there because I thought like everyone else. Now the pretense hits me between the eyes.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1669356' date='Oct 3 2008, 03:51 PM']Prez Bush went throughout his administration mumbling and a bumbling throughout, and he did well enough...[/quote]
This is my point. President Bush is an idiot, and his administration has been a trainwreck. "Mumbling and bumbling" indeed.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Mercy me' post='1669519' date='Oct 3 2008, 06:22 PM']That is a load of **** peddled in the northeast. Being from there and indoctrinated there I will say that you are very correct about that stereotypical bias about the rest of the country. Growing up people with accents automatically had lower IQs, especially southern accents. It is how it was. I admit it took me a very long time, more than 10 years , to realize that is it just what I said, a load of ****. It is false. Outside of the northeast regional accents are not indicative of ones level of education.[/quote]
We'll have to agree to differ. There are plenty of people with "regional accents" who still speak correctly. Shelby Foote comes to mind. In fact, the whole "regional accent" thing is just an excuse to not speak correctly. Of inner city African-Americans we would call that the "soft bigotry of low expectations." I have high expectations for someone who might be president, including speaking correctly and intelligently.