Hassan Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1740768' date='Jan 1 2009, 06:50 PM']how many Christians live in Israel? How many are in the Knesset (Israeli Parliament)? Is there a true equal treatment given by the Israeli government to Palestinian Muslims? Or for that matter, Palestinian (Arab) Christians? Or for that matter, Christian missionaries "prosletysizing" ie [i]evangelizing[/i] Jews in Israel? yes, it is nice to have Israel in control there because it gives us more freedom to visit the Holy Land (though not to evangelize within it)... but the ends do not justify the means. the foundation of Israel didn't come as a result of a defensive war in which they were established as a nation there, the land was given to them by the British who had a colony there (one reason I refer to it as a European colony, as regardless of the origin of some of the Jews who live there, it was through European colonial power that the Palestinian people were deprived of a right to their land)... the Muslims saw this invasion and decided to launch a war against them, failed because Israel had the technological backing of the west, and then began to lose more land; but Israel was the aggressor from the beginning, moving people in and displacing the Palestinian people (as more archives are released by the Israeli government, it becomes clearer and clearer that they had a policy of intimidation to get those people off their land from the start)... their presence there against the will of the people who lived there (who were NOT threatening them until they started invading through massive migration); the infiltration act which makes the purely racist policy of the Israeli nation to allow Jews to own land but Palestinians cannot in these places (excuse me, who were the initial infiltrators buying up land to take over political power?) you've got to be fair and Christian about this whole mess... the ends do not justify the means, and you cannot immorally remove the right of the Palestinian people to this land on the basis of a people who left a very long time ago (be they European or African). God is not a real estate agent, God does not authorize their return because He offers them their covenant through His Son, the fulfillment of it; He is not giving them back this land, guess where I got this image: [img]http://www.nkusa.org/images/flag-ani.gif[/img] I'll give you a hint, it's not a pro-Muslim site. Judaism does not condone Zionism; traditional rabbinic Judaism is against it. and so is traditional Catholicism.[/quote] good point.
Apotheoun Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 [i]My views on Islam can be found in the statement below, which is a slightly modified form of a post that I made at the Byzantine Forum some years ago:[/i] [size=3]Let me say – for the sake of clarity – that I have never advocated violence in the past, nor do I now advocate violence or hatred towards anyone, not even hatred directed at Mohammad. That being said, I simply do not accept the claim that Mohammad is a prophet. Clearly, Mohammad claimed to be a prophet, and he either was one or he was not one. I hold, as a matter of divine faith, that he was not a prophet. Moreover, the Qu'ran is either a true revelation of God or it is not a true revelation of God. I hold, as a matter of divine faith, that it is not a true revelation because it explicitly denies various mysteries of the Orthodox faith revealed by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Finally, I affirm as an absolute truth of faith that Christ is the sole savior of humanity, and that anyone who is saved is saved by His incarnation, sacrifice, resurrection, ascension into heaven, and glorious second coming. There is no salvation in any other name. Now if people on this forum are offended by my comments, I am sorry, but I cannot in good conscience say anything other than what I have said, because to embrace theological indifferentism is to apostatize from the Christian faith.[/size]
Hassan Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1740775' date='Jan 1 2009, 06:54 PM'][i]My views on Islam can be found in the statement below, which is a slightly modified form of a post that I made at the Byzantine Forum some years ago:[/i] [size=3]Let me say – for the sake of clarity – that I have never advocated violence in the past, nor do I now advocate violence or hatred towards anyone, not even hatred directed at Mohammad. That being said, I simply do not accept the claim that Mohammad is a prophet. Clearly, Mohammad claimed to be a prophet, and he either was one or he was not one. I hold, as a matter of divine faith, that he was not a prophet. Moreover, the Qu'ran is either a true revelation of God or it is not a true revelation of God. I hold, as a matter of divine faith, that it is not a true revelation because it explicitly denies various mysteries of the Orthodox faith revealed by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Finally, I affirm as an absolute truth of faith that Christ is the sole savior of humanity, and that anyone who is saved is saved by His incarnation, sacrifice, resurrection, ascension into heaven, and glorious second coming. There is no salvation in any other name. Now if people on this forum are offended by my comments, I am sorry, but I cannot in good conscience say anything other than what I have said, because to embrace theological indifferentism is to apostatize from the Christian faith.[/size][/quote] I don't care about your views on Islam. I’m glad you find meaning in your Christian faith and it defines you. Honestly I think that’s great. However, your views on Islam as a religion are totally irrelevant to this conversation.
Apotheoun Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1740777' date='Jan 1 2009, 03:58 PM']I don't care about your views on Islam. I’m glad you find meaning in your Christian faith and it defines you. Honestly I think that’s great. However, your views on Islam as a religion are totally irrelevant to this conversation.[/quote] That would only follow if Christianity were simply one religion among many that lead to God. But I believe that this a Christian forum, which means that its purpose is the advancement of the Gospel so that God may be properly glorified. So, my view of Islam, like the views of other Christians on this forum, is quite relevant. Your theological indifferentism is lamentable, because it is a grave danger to your soul and to the souls of those who might be influenced by your error.
Apotheoun Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 Hassan, Is Christ the sole savior of the world?
Hassan Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1740768' date='Jan 1 2009, 06:50 PM']how many Christians live in Israel? How many are in the Knesset (Israeli Parliament)? Is there a true equal treatment given by the Israeli government to Palestinian Muslims? Or for that matter, Palestinian (Arab) Christians? Or for that matter, Christian missionaries "prosletysizing" ie [i]evangelizing[/i] Jews in Israel? yes, it is nice to have Israel in control there because it gives us more freedom to visit the Holy Land (though not to evangelize within it)... but the ends do not justify the means. the foundation of Israel didn't come as a result of a defensive war in which they were established as a nation there, the land was given to them by the British who had a colony there (one reason I refer to it as a European colony, as regardless of the origin of some of the Jews who live there, it was through European colonial power that the Palestinian people were deprived of a right to their land)... the Muslims saw this invasion and decided to launch a war against them, failed because Israel had the technological backing of the west, and then began to lose more land; but Israel was the aggressor from the beginning, moving people in and displacing the Palestinian people (as more archives are released by the Israeli government, it becomes clearer and clearer that they had a policy of intimidation to get those people off their land from the start)... their presence there against the will of the people who lived there (who were NOT threatening them until they started invading through massive migration); the infiltration act which makes the purely racist policy of the Israeli nation to allow Jews to own land but Palestinians cannot in these places (excuse me, who were the initial infiltrators buying up land to take over political power?) you've got to be fair and Christian about this whole mess... the ends do not justify the means, and you cannot immorally remove the right of the Palestinian people to this land on the basis of a people who left a very long time ago (be they European or African). God is not a real estate agent, God does not authorize their return because He offers them their covenant through His Son, the fulfillment of it; He is not giving them back this land, guess where I got this image: [img]http://www.nkusa.org/images/flag-ani.gif[/img] I'll give you a hint, it's not a pro-Muslim site. Judaism does not condone Zionism; traditional rabbinic Judaism is against it. and so is traditional Catholicism.[/quote] [img]http://bigdogdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/anti-zionist-jews-in-london.jpg[/img] Yet many Orthodox Jews live in Israel. I'd like to know their position.
Apotheoun Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 Hassan, Is Christ the sole savior of the world?
Hassan Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1740781' date='Jan 1 2009, 07:02 PM']That would only follow if Christianity were simply one religion among many that lead to God. But I believe that this a Christian forum, which means that its purpose is the advancement of the Gospel so that God may be properly glorified. So, my view of Islam, like the views of other Christians on this forum, is quite relevant. Your theological indifferentism is lamentable, because it is a grave danger to your soul and to the souls of those who might be influenced by your error.[/quote] It is irrelivent to this particular thread. I am not "theologically indifferent" I am here for a reason.
Apotheoun Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1740786' date='Jan 1 2009, 04:06 PM']It is irrelivent to this particular thread. I am not "theologically indifferent" I am here for a reason.[/quote] Is God a Holy Trinity of persons? Is Christ the sole savior of mankind?
Hassan Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1740784' date='Jan 1 2009, 07:05 PM']Hassan, Is Christ the sole savior of the world?[/quote] I don't know.
Hassan Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1740787' date='Jan 1 2009, 07:07 PM']Is God a Holy Trinity of persons? Is Christ the sole savior of mankind?[/quote] I don't know.
Aloysius Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 Hassan is not even a Christian I believe. what one's religion is is indeed irrelevant to a discussion of whether they have a right to their own nation and land; religious Rabbinic Judaism cannot give anyone the right to land in Palestine and religious Mohammadism cannot revoke one's right to land in Palestine. the imposition of Islamic/sharia law anywhere ought to be fought against by any moral means possible; but not through immoral means (such as the colonialization of Palestine against the will of the people who lived there on the basis of the Holocaust and/or some idea that God wants them to have that land, even though traditional Talmudic Judaism itself says they cannot go back unless led by the Messiah (and Catholicism would in a sense agree, if that Messiah were Jesus Christ) (and I've never seen a claimed Messiah behind the foundation of Israel) and the people that did lead the charge for it were secularists who did not even practice their religion.
Hassan Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1740789' date='Jan 1 2009, 07:08 PM']That answer speaks volumes.[/quote] How so?
Apotheoun Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1740792' date='Jan 1 2009, 04:08 PM']Hassan is not even a Christian I believe. what one's religion is is indeed irrelevant to a discussion of whether they have a right to their own nation and land; religious Rabbinic Judaism cannot give anyone the right to land in Palestine and religious Mohammadism cannot revoke one's right to land in Palestine. the imposition of Islamic/sharia law anywhere ought to be fought against by any moral means possible; but not through immoral means (such as the colonialization of Palestine against the will of the people who lived there on the basis of the Holocaust and/or some idea that God wants them to have that land, even though traditional Talmudic Judaism itself says they cannot go back unless led by the Messiah (and I've never seen a claimed Messiah behind the foundation of Israel) and the people that did lead the charge for it were secularists who did not even practice their religion.[/quote] Religion is quite relevant to this discussion, because it is religion, and in particular the Islamic religion, that has caused the conflict in the Middle East. Islam invaded that region 1300 years ago, and that religious / political ideology destroyed the Christian Roman Empire in the East in 1453. Religion is quite pertinent to this discussion.
Hassan Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1740792' date='Jan 1 2009, 07:08 PM']Hassan is not even a Christian I believe. what one's religion is is indeed irrelevant to a discussion of whether they have a right to their own nation and land; religious Rabbinic Judaism cannot give anyone the right to land in Palestine and religious Mohammadism cannot revoke one's right to land in Palestine. the imposition of Islamic/sharia law anywhere ought to be fought against by any moral means possible; but not through immoral means (such as the colonialization of Palestine against the will of the people who lived there on the basis of the Holocaust and/or some idea that God wants them to have that land, even though traditional Talmudic Judaism itself says they cannot go back unless led by the Messiah (and Catholicism would in a sense agree, if that Messiah were Jesus Christ) (and I've never seen a claimed Messiah behind the foundation of Israel) and the people that did lead the charge for it were secularists who did not even practice their religion.[/quote] exactly.
Apotheoun Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1740794' date='Jan 1 2009, 04:10 PM']How so?[/quote] Your theological indifferentism explains your defense of Islam.
Hassan Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1740795' date='Jan 1 2009, 07:11 PM']Religion is quite relevant to this discussion, because it is religion, and in particular the Islamic religion, that has caused the conflict in the Middle East. Islam invaded that region 1300 years ago, and that religious / political ideology destroyed the Christian Roman Empire in the East in 1453. Religion is quite pertinent to this discussion.[/quote] Only if you ignore the numerous points made by Aloysius.
Apotheoun Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 Al is focused on Zionism, which really is irrelevant. The Palestinian Muslims will kill Zionist and Jew alike. Islam promotes the hatred of the Jews, and that hatred goes back to Mohammad himself, when he massacred the Jewish tribes in Medina.
Hassan Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1740798' date='Jan 1 2009, 07:12 PM']Your theological indifferentism explains your defense of Islam.[/quote] I am not "theologically indifferent" nor have I defended "Islam" here. I will insist that the basic human rights of Palestinians be respected, that includes Palestinian Christians.
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