Some Details Of The Israeli-arab Conflict

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1740803' date='Jan 1 2009, 04:14 PM']I am not "theologically indifferent" nor have I defended "Islam" here. I will insist that the basic human rights of Palestinians be respected, that includes Palestinian Christians.[/quote]
I pray for the Palestinian Christians, because the day Israel falls will be the end of them too.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1740801' date='Jan 1 2009, 07:14 PM']Al is focused on Zionism, which really is irrelevant. The Palestinian Muslims will kill Zionist and Jew alike. Islam promotes the hatred of the Jews, and that hatred goes back to Mohammad himself, when he massacred the Jewish tribes in Medina.[/quote]
No, he has made numerous excellent points on the current situation and its (relevant) historical origins. I know quite a few Palestinian Muslims, none of them have yet tried to kill any Jews on campus.

Edited January 1, 2009 by Hassan

[Aloysius]

and yet, Just War Doctrine says we cannot be the aggressor in a war; do you consider it a defensive war to reconquer that which was conquered 1300 years ago? how is that justified? this chapter in the history of Palestine finds the Palestinians (Muslim and Christian alike) being given their just historical desserts in a sense after going around conquering in the name of a religion, they are being displaced and treated unfairly in one of those regions now by the Jews in their return. cool, fine, but is it JUST? Revenge is not just, there is no justification to reconquer this people now (though if there were a reason, Christians should have dibs on the reconquering, the Jews weren't even displaced from it by the Muslims but by the Romans)

Israel was indeed founded by provocation by Israel and then war, and that cannot be justified by historical revenge

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1740806' date='Jan 1 2009, 04:16 PM']and yet, Just War Doctrine says we cannot be the aggressor in a war; do you consider it a defensive war to reconquer that which was conquered 1300 years ago? how is that justified? this chapter in the history of Palestine finds the Palestinians (Muslim and Christian alike) being given their just historical desserts in a sense after going around conquering in the name of a religion, they are being displaced and treated unfairly in one of those regions now by the Jews in their return. cool, fine, but is it JUST? Revenge is not just, there is no justification to reconquer this people now (though if there were a reason, Christians should have dibs on the reconquering, the Jews weren't even displaced from it by the Muslims but by the Romans)

Israel was indeed founded by provocation by Israel and then war, and that cannot be justified by historical revenge[/quote]
A preemptive war against Islamic fascism can be justified. A nation does not have to wait until it is nearly destroyed through subversive means to defend its interests.

[Aloysius]

the current Palestinian-Arab hatred for Jews does not seem much different to me than the historical hatred of the Irish for the British; I would not justify hatred of any people, but that's pretty much the current cause and motive (though I would not disagree that Mohamadism has a long history of persecuting Jews and Christians alike)

and what also must be remembered is that there ARE ethnic Palestinian/Arab peoples who are Christians.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1740807' date='Jan 1 2009, 07:18 PM']A preemptive war against Islamic fascism can be justified. A nation does not have to wait until it is nearly destroyed through subversive means to defend its interests.[/quote]


Did you actually read his post before responding?

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1740807' date='Jan 1 2009, 07:18 PM']A preemptive war against Islamic fascism can be justified. A nation does not have to wait until it is nearly destroyed through subversive means to defend its interests.[/quote]
and conquer? conquer on the basis of what, that the Muslims are on the verge of imposing Sharia law on Rome? pre-emptive DEFENSE is okay, not pre-emptive conquering. If you're afraid someone's about to punch you in the eye, you can't pummel him to the ground until he's dead. but you can take a stance and protect your eye. or to put it another way, you can't cut off an arm that the person has every right to even if that person intends to use that arm to punch you in the eye.

pre-emptive conquering is absolutely un-Christian. though it is justified in the Talmud, I believe.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1740809' date='Jan 1 2009, 04:19 PM']Did you actually read his post before responding?[/quote]
Yes, I read his post, and I don't agree with him, Al is quite simply naive. One can justify a war to liberate the Christian territories of North Africa, the Middle East, and Anatolia based on the ongoing persecution of Christians by Muslims.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1740811' date='Jan 1 2009, 04:21 PM']and conquer? conquer on the basis of what, that the Muslims are on the verge of imposing Sharia law on Rome? pre-emptive DEFENSE is okay, not pre-emptive conquering. If you're afraid someone's about to punch you in the eye, you can't pummel him to the ground until he's dead. but you can take a stance and protect your eye. or to put it another way, you can't cut off an arm that the person has every right to even if that person intends to use that arm to punch you in the eye.

pre-emptive conquering is absolutely un-Christian. though it is justified in the Talmud, I believe.[/quote]
Al,

We aren't going to agree, but you will make an excellent Dhimmi.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1740813' date='Jan 1 2009, 07:22 PM']Yes, I read his post, and I don't agree with him, Al is quite simply naive. One can justify a war to liberate the Christian territories of North Africa, the Middle East, and Anatolia based on the ongoing persecution of Christians by Muslims.[/quote]

Israel was not founded to protect Christians from any persecution. You have never once spoken up for the Christians who are also being ravaged by Israel's policies towards Gaza which, to use your line, "speaks volumes".

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1740818' date='Jan 1 2009, 04:24 PM']Israel was not founded to protect Christians from any persecution. You have never once spoken up for the Christians who are also being ravaged by Israel's policies towards Gaza which, to use your line, "speaks volumes".[/quote]
Israel was founded because of the Nazi atrocities against the Jews. I would prefer the Holy Land be controlled by Israel than by a Muslim state.

Sadly, the Palestinians rejected the original partition plans (i.e., dividing up the Holy Land between them and the Jews) and decided to fight a war with the Israelis. They lost.

Edited January 1, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Aloysius]

I will do no such thing. I will fight the Mohammadans to the bitter end if need be; but I do not consider their religion to take away their right to have the land they live on.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1740815' date='Jan 1 2009, 07:23 PM']Al,

We aren't going to agree, but you will make an excellent Dhimmi.[/quote]

If I were arguing your position I'd ignore his points too. Best just to make thinly veiled charge.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1740823' date='Jan 1 2009, 04:26 PM']I will do no such thing. I will fight the Mohammadans to the bitter end if need be; but I do not consider their religion to take away their right to have the land they live on.[/quote]
Sad to say, but I can see the day coming when St. Peter's becomes a Mosque. It looks to me as though Roman Catholics, like the Byzantine Christians before them, will have to learn the hard way that tolerance of Islam leads to dhimitude.

[Hassan]

Century Israel was not founded to protect Christians from any persecution. You have never once spoken up for the Christians who are being ravaged by Israel's policies towards Gaza which, to use your like, "speaks volumes".

If I were arguing your position I'd ignore his points too. Best just to make thinly veiled charge.

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1740821' date='Jan 1 2009, 07:26 PM']Israel was founded because of the Nazi atrocities against the Jews.[/quote]

I think Aloysius already made an excellent point at the insane logic needed to bolster such a justification, so I think it suffices to point out that mass immigration and plans by the British to found an Israeli state were occurring before the Nazi atrocities

[quote]I would prefer the Holy Land be controlled by Israel than by a Muslim state.[/quote]

Well, whatever makes it easier for Christian pilgrims, never mind it's adverse affects on the residents. I would also appose a Muslim theocracy.

[quote]Sadly, the Palestinians rejected the original partition plans (i.e., dividing up the Holy Land between them and the Jews) and decided to fight a war with the Israelis. They lost.[/quote]

Sure.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1740830' date='Jan 1 2009, 04:31 PM']I think Aloysius already made an excellent point at the insane logic needed to bolster such a justification, so I think it suffices to point out that mass immigration and plans by the British to found an Israeli state were occurring before the Nazi atrocities[/quote]
Zionism would have gone nowhere had it not been for the massacre of six million Jews by the Nazis.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1740827' date='Jan 1 2009, 07:29 PM']Sad to say, but I can see the day coming when St. Peter's becomes a Mosque. It looks to me as though Roman Catholics, like the Byzantine Christians before them, will have to learn the hard way that tolerance of Islam leads to dhimitude.[/quote]
Unlike the Christian Byzantine empire which was such a fun place to live for Jews? Any theocracy is bad for religious minorities, Christian have not been an exception. There is a reason so many Spanish Jews fled to the Ottoman Empire, and it wasn’t because they just were just having such a great time they couldn’t get any work done.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1740833' date='Jan 1 2009, 07:33 PM']Zionism would have gone nowhere had it not been for the massacre of six million Jews by the Nazis.[/quote]

Actually it was.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1740830' date='Jan 1 2009, 04:31 PM']Well, whatever makes it easier for Christian pilgrims, never mind it's adverse affects on the residents. I would also appose a Muslim theocracy.[/quote]
If -- as a Christian -- I had to live in either Israel or Egypt, I would choose Israel. I feel sorry for the poor Coptic Christians, recently hundreds of them were trapped inside a Church while thousands of Muslims attacked them. Islam, the religion of peace. What a joke.

Edited January 1, 2009 by Apotheoun