Status Report On Non-denom Church

[bonkers]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1754303' date='Jan 18 2009, 10:28 AM']What "God" are they bringing them to?
the party God, the wealth and prosperity God, the Jesus is my best bro God, the Jesus really didn't say that God, the God that agrees with whatever the people want - all the false Gods??[/quote]

Hmmm, are you hinting protestants worship a different god than you do?

[princessgianna]

[quote name='Giolla' post='1754088' date='Jan 17 2009, 10:31 PM']Alright so I got back from my brothers new church. I can see how he likes it its very vibrant with music and the pastor is lively. I think it is really good for him, but personally after going I just couldn't stop thinking how blessed I am to be Catholic. I have no doubt they have faith but its very unorganized and I'm not sure on the educational background of the pastor (how he translates). It was my first Protestant experience I felt a bit uncomfortable (I got looks after I made the sign of the cross after opening prayer). Oh well hopefully after he fully cleans up his life he will eventually come back to the Catholic Church. God willing[/quote]

Well of course it felt awkward-you don't understand it. It is just the same when Protestants attend Mass (even more so if it's the Tridentine Mass ). They don't understand it. Plus with the fact you not being used to it.

However since you have known the fullness of the Truth when you get a smaller version with vital parts missing-you are indeed going to feel very unsatisfied!

Prayers for you and your brother!

[princessgianna]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1754318' date='Jan 18 2009, 10:46 AM']Hmmm, are you hinting protestants worship a different god than you do?[/quote]
I think cmotherofpirl is trying to point out that Protestants don't worship a different God as much as they don't have the fullness of God.

For example-most protestants believe in Jesus Christ but they don't have the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. So while they do indeed hold the "Truth" they do not have the fullness of the Truth.

[add]

bonkers

The number of faithful has clearly fallen in the catholic faith, in this you are correct. Your reasoning for this fall, However is seriously flawed. As are your expectations of Catholic worship services.

[bonkers]

[quote name='princessgianna' post='1754324' date='Jan 18 2009, 11:00 AM']I think cmotherofpirl is trying to point out that Protestants don't worship a different God as much as they don't have the fullness of God.

For example-most protestants believe in Jesus Christ but they don't have the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. So while they do indeed hold the "Truth" they do not have the fullness of the Truth.[/quote]

Ohhh so they "kind of", [i]in a sort of round about way [/i]worship the same god but they kind also worship an idol. I see so much more clearly now, thank you.

Edited January 18, 2009 by bonkers

[missionseeker]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1754248' date='Jan 18 2009, 09:23 AM']Doh! I beg thee to forgive me for thy selfishness! I was pointing out how mass fails to engage young people, or rather, how protestant church provides a better outlet for young people to celebrate god and grow in their faith.[/quote]


You went to the Saturday night Mass where it is usually people who are more "formal" and less "community." Did you ever try a different time? Did you ever go to youth gatherings/young people's groups?

[bonkers]

[quote name='apparently' post='1754326' date='Jan 18 2009, 11:04 AM']bonkers

The number of faithful has clearly fallen in the catholic faith, in this you are correct. Your reasoning for this fall, However is seriously flawed. As are your expectations of Catholic worship services.[/quote]

Oh thank you so much for enlightening me.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='princessgianna' post='1754324' date='Jan 18 2009, 12:00 PM']I think cmotherofpirl is trying to point out that Protestants don't worship a different God as much as they don't have the fullness of God.

For example-most protestants believe in Jesus Christ but they don't have the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. So while they do indeed hold the "Truth" they do not have the fullness of the Truth.[/quote]
I am pointing out both: unitarians claim to be christians and so do mormons, but that doesn't make it so. Do you think that the definition of God is so wide, that any definition of a higher power fills the bill?

[bonkers]

[quote name='missionseeker' post='1754328' date='Jan 18 2009, 11:06 AM']You went to the Saturday night Mass where it is usually people who are more "formal" and less "community." Did you ever try a different time? Did you ever go to youth gatherings/young people's groups?[/quote]

Yes, I tried different times, same outcome. I did some investigations into youth gatherings, young people's groups etc, there was nothing from recollection.

[add]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1754330' date='Jan 18 2009, 12:11 PM']Oh thank you so much for enlightening me.[/quote]
Are you being sarcastic, skeptical or sacrilegious? I can’t tell anymore.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1754290' date='Jan 18 2009, 11:52 AM']Yes, one which totally fails to engage young people. At least the christian churches are trying to save souls and reach out to the youth. Mass provides little outlet for people to grow in and share their faith with others, it's a practical failure when you consider that the pews are virtually void of young people.[/quote]

As a former Protestant youth, I will admit that protestant churches have very entertaining youth groups. They focus on the youth. All about the youth all the time. However, from my experience, there is no substance, and I wouldn't go so far to say they are "saving souls." I have seen just as much harm done to the soul of a young person in a protestant youth group than I have seen good. And, when I sit back and look at the fruits of the youth groups of the Protestant church and that of the Catholic church... many come out the same. Not caring. I think this has to do with many Catholic youth groups being made to be like many of the Protestant ones.

But when the youth group is fashioned in the Church in a Catholic way that challenges the youth and leads them to Christ I see youth saints in the Church. I see young people with profound holiness and self-sacrifice. I never saw this in the protestant church. Ever... no, I take that back. I did see it once. Just once though. They never challenged us. They never called us to look out of ourselves and at the cross.

My friends and I didn't go to youth group because we loved God and wanted to learn more about him. We went to youth group because we loved each other and the youth minister and wanted to learn more about them. We liked the music. It made us feel good. And, when everyone was grown and gone away the youth group would fall apart (because it wasn't focused on the God that holds it together) and the youth, then adults, would go their different ways to various different Protestant churches not knowing or caring for the theological differences. It was all about them. All they thought important was: God is good. God loves us. God is merciful. Jesus died on the cross. We are saved. Yay. That was it. No substance. No challenge of the Gospel. No striving to be holy. No Jesus. So yeah, the church may engage them... but, they only do so for a short time and usually for the wrong reasons. Music and nice people is not what sustains and saves souls. Jesus is. This was my experience.

I have never met a person who understood the Mass - the meaning of the Mass and what it actually is - that has abandoned it. You, as can be seen, do not understand the Mass. That is probably a big reason why you were so able to leave the church. If you had understood it, you wouldn't have left. No one that I know has because the Mass has it all. It has Jesus. The Mass doesn't have big lights, big noises, or energetic speakers walking up and down a stage. It does have Jesus though. And in the end it is Jesus that is going to sustain the sheep... not lights, pretty sounds, and good speaking.

[i]"The Mass provides little outlet for people to grow in and share their faith with others."[/i]



The Eucharist is [i][b]the[/b][/i] means by which people can grow in their faith and share their faith with others. There is no other way greater then the Eucharist. Socializing is all good, and it has it's place, but not in the worship of God. At the Mass we are at Calvary. We are there. Do you think then is the time to look over at Susan Smith and ask about her weekend? No. It is about Jesus, and we are there to worship Him. I can talk to Susan afterward.

In many protestant services it is all about the people. What pleases them. What makes them feel good. In the Catholic Church, I found, it is all about God. The Mass is not a show where the speaker has to entertain. The Mass is the Sacrifice of Calvary. It trumps a show anyday. And it actually sustains when the lights dim, the speaker is awful, and the music is off. Not many Protestant churches can keep their members when those three things are messed up because - to be honest - that is what their church is all about.

At Mass though there can be no music. There can be no lights. The priest's homily can make little sense. And right before you go in you can hear Susan Smith talking about you behind your back, but yet when you leave you are satisfied. It was all about Jesus. If my aunt, a non-denominational Christian, was to go to church and there was no music, no lights, no good speaker, and Susan Smith would have said something about her... well, that would be the last time you would be seeing her.

Edited January 18, 2009 by TotusTuusMaria

[Jesus_lol]

come on people, you have been talking about why there is less young people in the catholic church?(maybe not the purpose of this thread, but there it is now, and in several others)
Bonkers gives his reasoning for why this is so, and all you do is call him out on it. he seemed pretty reasonable in his first post, until everyone started in on him.

he has a point. regardless of which is the more fulfilling service(im gonna go with the catholics on this one) the simple fact is, that younger people and converts seem to like the more engaging services, and we definitely like being with other people our own age. so in a bit of a cycle, the service attracts a few young people, which in turn get a few more young people to show up.

he is not saying the mass is inherently flawed(though as an atheist, i am sure he thinks that, thanks for keeping it under wraps here) merely how a different one works.

its true enough, at my old church the main reason i wouldn't go was because i was 10 years older than the young kids and 50 years younger than the adults. this won't make a difference with someone who is sure in their faith, but with a lot of young people who go because their parents make them, it can make all the difference on whether they will come of their own free will

[Winchester]

Non-Denoms are not Protestant.

[MithLuin]

[b]bonkers[/b], I'm sorry the church in your neighborhood was limited in young people. The church where I grew up was all families with children, so there were always young people in the pews. Kinda surprised me when I went to other churches - when my family moved, my parents commented on all the 'grey hairs' in the new church; but that had something to do with the fact that there are about 10 nursing homes in that parish. So, sure, when I went to that church, I felt as though there were few young people. But what I ended up doing was, when the parish advertized that they were going to start discussion groups on the Catholic faith, I volunteered to be a group leader for a young adult group. So, even though I wouldn't have met other young adults at church (if they went to different masses or whatnot), I ended up meeting a group of girls about my age who would come over for the discussion groups, but also plan outings or movie nights together. A great opportunity for fellowship.

Community is what you make of it. Most Catholic churches have opportunities to get involved - with service projects, socials, prayer groups, etc. Or you can get involved at mass - join the choir, become a lector, etc. Attending mass can be a bit lonely/awkward if you are going on your own; it's much better if you can go with your family.

Not surprisingly, Protestant churches have the same challenges. Young people go off to college, and are not comfortable attending church by themselves. There are outreaches to encourage people to come to church, and college youth groups to help you not be going it alone. I am not saying that the Catholic Church should not make more effort to draw in youth, make them feel welcome, and by all means, catechize them. I am saying that that effort is there (in some parishes more than others), and it should be done in a way that spreads the gospel.

[b]Giolla[/b] admitted that he saw why the service appealed to his brother. He wasn't knocking it or saying the people there did not have faith. But it is not mass, and does not pretend to be, and he missed some of the things he likes about mass - some of which are very important to worship.

Many (not all) Protestants have a vibrant faith in Jesus, a devout prayer life, and a willingness to hold each other accountable as they grow in holiness in their Christian walk. It would be foolish to write off a whole swath of spirituality as being 'not about Jesus'. But then again, there *are* many Protestant Sunday school kids who are taught nothing but 'Jesus loves me,' and grow up to have a very nominal faith. Just as there are many Catholic Sunday school kids who see church attendance as an obligation and 'get nothing out of it.' I have not yet encountered a 'technique' for sharing the gospel that works 100% of the time - there isn't one. Each person is on a journey, and isn't always ready to hear the message. Jesus will continue to quietly knock - maybe one day the door will be opened.

Even if you do not like praise and worship music, the people who write it know there is more to worship than singing songs:
[indent]I'll bring you more than a song
For a song in itself is not what you have required.
You search much deeper within
Through the way things appear;
You're looking into my heart.

I'm coming back to the heart of worship
And it's all about you
All about you Jesus.
I'm sorry Lord for the thing I've made it
When it's all about you,
All about you Jesus.[/indent]


Church works on two dimensions, like a cross - part of it points upwards, and is the connection between us and God. And part of it reaches out to the sides, to our brothers and sisters. It's about both, not just one or the other. It would be sad if our churches had no fellowship and no outreach - but during the mass is not when those things occur.


[b]Winchester[/b] - Well, they're not Catholic, and they're not Orthodox, so...I would lump them under the Protestant umbrella. I realize they do not generally claim a denomination (hence, the [i]non-denominational[/i] part), but it is still within the Protestant tradition. For instance, what would you call Vineyard?

Edited January 18, 2009 by MithLuin

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1754352' date='Jan 18 2009, 12:02 PM']I have never met a person who understood the Mass - the meaning of the Mass and what it actually is - that has abandoned it. You, as can be seen, do not understand the Mass. That is probably a big reason why you were so able to leave the church. If you had understood it, you wouldn't have left. No one that I know has because the Mass has it all. It has Jesus. The Mass doesn't have big lights, big noises, or energetic speakers walking up and down a stage. It does have Jesus though. And in the end it is Jesus that is going to sustain the sheep... not lights, pretty sounds, and good speaking.[/quote]

[Winchester]

[quote name='MithLuin' post='1754384' date='Jan 18 2009, 01:34 PM'][b]Winchester[/b] - Well, they're not Catholic, and they're not Orthodox, so...I would lump them under the Protestant umbrella.[/quote]But you'd be wrong.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Giolla' post='1754088' date='Jan 17 2009, 11:31 PM']Alright so I got back from my brothers new church. I can see how he likes it its very vibrant with music and the pastor is lively. I think it is really good for him, but personally after going I just couldn't stop thinking how blessed I am to be Catholic. I have no doubt they have faith but its very unorganized and I'm not sure on the educational background of the pastor (how he translates). It was my first Protestant experience I felt a bit uncomfortable (I got looks after I made the sign of the cross after opening prayer). Oh well hopefully after he fully cleans up his life he will eventually come back to the Catholic Church. God willing[/quote]

Doesn't sound like a very good church. I wouldn't have gone there even as a Protestant, but then I was raised Lutheran, so my experience was more like growing up Catholic than Baptist. But, now you do have a taste of what it's like for someone from a Baptist or non-denominational background to walk into Mass for the first time.

[quote name='bonkers' post='1754290' date='Jan 18 2009, 10:52 AM']Yes, one which totally fails to engage young people. At least the christian churches are trying to save souls and reach out to the youth. Mass provides little outlet for people to grow in and share their faith with others, it's a practical failure when you consider that the pews are virtually void of young people.[/quote]

I think it's fair to admit there is much truth to your observations, at least in the West. But, at the same time, you can also find some parishes and priests doing a great job at evangelism and attracting young people. Most of that outreach, of course, is outside of Mass. The Mass is required of us, but we aren't restricted to it. For example, one parish here in Louisville hosts summer concerts by these indie folk/rock artists who tour the country and usually end up on the local public radio station. It's a great way to bring non-Catholics and non-Christians to the parish enjoying themselves and building community with good music instead of wasting away hours drinking and gambling.

[quote name='bonkers' post='1754301' date='Jan 18 2009, 11:22 AM']You keep banging on about "entertainment" like it's the core theme of these services, it's not. The core theme is god, some entertainment is integrated into the service to spiritually energise people and bring them closer to god. I think this 'holier than thou' attitude demeans the evangelistic efforts of christian churches given they are far more successful in bringing people to god than catholics. You can blame the "training" of the current generation all you want, fact is the church hasn't adapted and people are seeking spiritual fulfillment elsewhere.[/quote]

Adding to this, if you listen to quality Evangelical pastors (like Al Mohler, John MacArthur, and John Piper) they agree 100% with the purpose of church being to teach truth, call sinners to repentance and pursing genuine holiness. They openly criticize Evangelical churches that use pop music and bright lights to attract young people while without giving them a faithful preaching of the Gospel.

[LouisvilleFan]

Period.

Edited January 18, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1754418' date='Jan 18 2009, 03:14 PM']But you'd be wrong.[/quote]

Although "Protestantism" most specifically refers to the so-called "high" forms of non-Catholic Christianity, the traditions of which go back to one of the so-called "Reformers", as a concept it applies to all of those Christians who protest the absolute teaching authority of the office of Peter, and all of the uniquely Catholic beliefs that are centered on that Rock. In other words, "Protestantism" in the generalized sense is virtually interchangeable with the word "heresy" (which of course is not to imply that all Protestants today are heretics). I think you are both right, one in the specific sense of the word and the other in the more generalized sense.

Edited January 18, 2009 by Ziggamafu

[princessgianna]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1754352' date='Jan 18 2009, 12:02 PM']As a former Protestant youth, I will admit that protestant churches have very entertaining youth groups. They focus on the youth. All about the youth all the time. However, from my experience, there is no substance, and I wouldn't go so far to say they are "saving souls." I have seen just as much harm done to the soul of a young person in a protestant youth group than I have seen good. And, when I sit back and look at the fruits of the youth groups of the Protestant church and that of the Catholic church... many come out the same. Not caring. I think this has to do with many Catholic youth groups being made to be like many of the Protestant ones.

But when the youth group is fashioned in the Church in a Catholic way that challenges the youth and leads them to Christ I see youth saints in the Church. I see young people with profound holiness and self-sacrifice. I never saw this in the protestant church. Ever... no, I take that back. I did see it once. Just once though. They never challenged us. They never called us to look out of ourselves and at the cross.

My friends and I didn't go to youth group because we loved God and wanted to learn more about him. We went to youth group because we loved each other and the youth minister and wanted to learn more about them. We liked the music. It made us feel good. And, when everyone was grown and gone away the youth group would fall apart (because it wasn't focused on the God that holds it together) and the youth, then adults, would go their different ways to various different Protestant churches not knowing or caring for the theological differences. It was all about them. All they thought important was: God is good. God loves us. God is merciful. Jesus died on the cross. We are saved. Yay. That was it. No substance. No challenge of the Gospel. No striving to be holy. No Jesus. So yeah, the church may engage them... but, they only do so for a short time and usually for the wrong reasons. Music and nice people is not what sustains and saves souls. Jesus is. This was my experience.

I have never met a person who understood the Mass - the meaning of the Mass and what it actually is - that has abandoned it. You, as can be seen, do not understand the Mass. That is probably a big reason why you were so able to leave the church. If you had understood it, you wouldn't have left. No one that I know has because the Mass has it all. It has Jesus. The Mass doesn't have big lights, big noises, or energetic speakers walking up and down a stage. It does have Jesus though. And in the end it is Jesus that is going to sustain the sheep... not lights, pretty sounds, and good speaking.

[i]"The Mass provides little outlet for people to grow in and share their faith with others."[/i]



The Eucharist is [i][b]the[/b][/i] means by which people can grow in their faith and share their faith with others. There is no other way greater then the Eucharist. Socializing is all good, and it has it's place, but not in the worship of God. At the Mass we are at Calvary. We are there. Do you think then is the time to look over at Susan Smith and ask about her weekend? No. It is about Jesus, and we are there to worship Him. I can talk to Susan afterward.

In many protestant services it is all about the people. What pleases them. What makes them feel good. In the Catholic Church, I found, it is all about God. The Mass is not a show where the speaker has to entertain. The Mass is the Sacrifice of Calvary. It trumps a show anyday. And it actually sustains when the lights dim, the speaker is awful, and the music is off. Not many Protestant churches can keep their members when those three things are messed up because - to be honest - that is what their church is all about.

At Mass though there can be no music. There can be no lights. The priest's homily can make little sense. And right before you go in you can hear Susan Smith talking about you behind your back, but yet when you leave you are satisfied. It was all about Jesus. If my aunt, a non-denominational Christian, was to go to church and there was no music, no lights, no good speaker, and Susan Smith would have said something about her... well, that would be the last time you would be seeing her.[/quote]
That is a very good testimony! Thanks for sharing.

[quote name='Winchester' post='1754383' date='Jan 18 2009, 01:32 PM']Non-Denoms are not Protestant.[/quote]
Why?