Status Report On Non-denom Church

[Luthien]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1754290' date='Jan 18 2009, 12:52 PM']Yes, one which totally fails to engage young people. At least the christian churches are trying to save souls and reach out to the youth. Mass provides little outlet for people to grow in and share their faith with others, it's a practical failure when you consider that the pews are virtually void of young people.[/quote]


Thats sad, most of the churches I go to are jam-packed with youth and families...maybe it was just the area you lived in...

[princessgianna]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1754327' date='Jan 18 2009, 11:05 AM']Ohhh so they "kind of", [i]in a sort of round about way [/i]worship the same god but they kind also worship an idol. I see so much more clearly now, thank you.[/quote]
I never said anything about an idol!

[walburga]

Frankly, I can't think of ANYTHING more engaging than being present when simple bread and wine are transformed into the Body and Blood of Christ. Here is God, literally descending to earth and then physically becoming present, not only TO us, but IN us in the most intimate way. If anyone is 'bored' at Mass, I think it must be due to lack of understanding and attentiveness... just my opinion. We're not there to socialize.

Edited January 18, 2009 by walburga

[MStar]

Bonkers, I think I may see where you're coming from. I have many non-denom. Christian friends and their perception of what Mass is varies widely depending on what they expect and what their experience has been. Like Walburga said, at Mass we're not there to socialize. The Mass is a prayer, a worshiping of God, listening to Him, and becoming truly the body of Christ. It's entirely centered on Jesus, and on praying, not on emotions, music, or community (in the sense of reaching out to the people around you). Outreach should definitely happen in a Catholic community but during the Mass we all pray together and worship God together as one body. Of course it can become a ritual if the words are only repeated and not actually prayed, but that only happens if we let it. The reaching out should happen (this is my opinion) after Mass, that's when we ought to gather and support each other individually and grow to know each other in a community and support each other in faith. This, of course, is a lot easier to do in a smaller community. Also, lots of parishes have bible-study or prayer groups that meet at other times. It's up to us to become involved in them.

I attended the non-demon. service that my campus has on Friday nights, it's like a prayer seminar (like someone else mentioned). It's very good for me, I enjoy praising God in the songs they sing (praise and worship style, yo ) and they have very good speakers. I get to visit with my non-Catholic friends afterwords and it's a good time. I never really feel awkward there, at least, not since I got used to it. But I would never substitute it for the Mass. The Mass is truly worship. The only time I can actually become one with God Himself, when He shows His love so beautifully to us. I couldn't imagine missing Mass. In fact, often on Friday nights, the songs they sing awake in me the desire to go to Mass, because it's like I'm consummating my relationship with God! I would enjoy it if the Catholics did some Praise and Worship seminars once in awhile until then, I'll keep Catholics to Praise and Worship stuff and protestants to Mass (as long as I'm able to talk to them about it afterwards and before - I don't want them being confused and awkward feeling).

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' post='1754374' date='Jan 18 2009, 02:19 PM']he has a point. regardless of which is the more fulfilling service(im gonna go with the catholics on this one) the simple fact is, that younger people and converts seem to like the more engaging services,[/quote]


I do not buy this. I have never bought it. This is something that grown-ups think about teenagers, but I don't think it's true, that they need a special "engaging' service to hold their interest.

As a teenager, I hated anything that was designed for teenagers. Loathed it. I had no interest in going to church of any kind, because it would probably involve some kind of "youth service" in which I would be pandered to with an "engaging" light/sound/sermon program designed by a clueless early 30s adult clad in hip dressy casual attire.

I did not want to order off the kiddie menu, and get stuff that has been especially designed for my age. I wanted to be treated like a grown-up. I did not want to buy Teen People, I wanted People magazine.

[Maggyie]

It's an interesting problem... "engaging" vs. "non-engaging." The first problem is, who gets to determine what is engaging to youth and what is not. Now for most people that means a lot of the Praise and Worship stuff, lots of high-energy prayer, not a lot of contemplation or silence, more "rock" type music. But not everybody is the same. At my parish we have an extremely successful Life Teen program - we have more young men in the seminary than any other parish in our diocese! And yet my two younger brothers, one who is now in college and the other who is a senior in high school, can't stand the ethos of Life Teen and have completely fallen away from the Church as a result of not having a youth ministry that appeals to them, to the point that they will not even go to Christmas or Easter Mass with the rest of the family. My one brother in college is a Marine Corps reservist and when he was at Parris Island he loved going to Mass, mostly because the chaplain was the only one who didn't yell at him there! Sadly it didn't stick

Edited January 18, 2009 by Maggie

[puellapaschalis]

The Mass "engages" me now in a very different way than it did when I was a teenager, [b]but it has always remained the same[/b] (my recent dissatisfaction with the Novus Ordo notwithstanding and being only of limited applicability here anyway). I have always shied away from "yoof" activities; they've never attracted me and they've [b]never[/b] don't anything but weaken my awareness of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

[Winchester]

[quote name='princessgianna' post='1754473' date='Jan 18 2009, 03:18 PM']Why?[/quote]
They are not part of the Protestant Reformation.

[MithLuin]

Clearly, you never attended a Youth 2000 retreat.

They focus on Eucharistic Adoration, preach the gospel....and, yes, have praise and worship music.

I guess I am saying that there is no rule that has to say - silent and solemn goes with good theology and truth, while shiny lights is always empty. It depends what you do once you have a person's attention. It is certainly good to caution against youth groups becoming 'Catholic-lite', but not fair to assume that they all are.

There are lots of different liturgical styles that are appropriate and legitimate expressions of Catholic worship. There are some that are [i]not[/i] - but probably fewer than we'd complain about! For instance, the [url="http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=980DE3DF163BF932A3575BC0A9649C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all"]canonization mass of Juan Diego[/url] is not something I have ever seen in a Catholic church before, but that doesn't make it...wrong.

Youth fall away for lots of reasons - a lot more of it has to do with questioning whether or not God is even real or the Chruch a legitimate expression of faith than the particular style of worship. Give people some credit - they wouldn't keep going to church simply because they like the atmosphere, if they had no faith in Jesus to bolster them. For some, it takes a crisis where they appreciate what church really means to them and why it's important. And yes, then it will matter if the church community is there for them through their trials. But you cannot give people faith - you can only create opportunities for them to find it, and educate them in the Truth. We share the gospel...hopefully, we don't ram it down people's throats.


As for categories, I suppose you could give them a whole new one. So, Christians can be Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant or Non-denominational. But then, from their point of view, there's probably 'no difference' between Catholic or Orthodox, and maybe not even between Catholic and Lutheran or Methodist...and that wouldn't reflect reality. Generally, I try to call people by the names they prefer, so if they don't want to be Protestant, I won't force the label on them. I do think that many non-denominational churches seek to heal the in-fighting so inherent in a lot of the particular Protestant denominations.

Edited January 18, 2009 by MithLuin

[Winchester]

[quote name='MithLuin' post='1754588' date='Jan 18 2009, 06:31 PM']so if they don't want to be Protestant, I won't force the label on them. I do think that many non-denominational churches seek to heal the in-fighting so inherent in a lot of the particular Protestant denominations.[/quote]
I neither know nor care what they want as a label. Based on history, they are not Protestants.

In reality, the non-denoms seem to be headed by a charismatic person who seeks riches. Like the lakewood speechifiers here in Houston. They're typically feel-good windbags who sound more like Oprah than Paul, with a minimal understanding of Christianity. Their services are rah-rah gatherings with sparkle and a little bit of "I sure do love Jesus!" sprinkled in. The very concept of "non-denominational" is asinine. Really, it's just chaos and foolishness without the slightest bit of understanding of human nature. At best, it's harmless; at worst, it is a form of idolatry (albeit unintentional on the part of the congregation).

[MithLuin]

Um, o-kay. Some of the most sincere Christians I have known have been non-denominational. One is now a Methodist minister; one is now a baptized Catholic. There is a lot of variation between non-denominational churches. Most are evangelical, and do make sincere efforts to spread the gospel (even if they tend to be focused on the first step of getting saved, there are lots of resources for discipleship within the church.) They're not [i]all[/i] tele-evangelist personality cults!

Edited January 19, 2009 by MithLuin

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' post='1754562' date='Jan 18 2009, 03:36 PM']I do not buy this. I have never bought it. This is something that grown-ups think about teenagers, but I don't think it's true, that they need a special "engaging' service to hold their interest.

As a teenager, I hated anything that was designed for teenagers. Loathed it. I had no interest in going to church of any kind, because it would probably involve some kind of "youth service" in which I would be pandered to with an "engaging" light/sound/sermon program designed by a clueless early 30s adult clad in hip dressy casual attire.

I did not want to order off the kiddie menu, and get stuff that has been especially designed for my age. I wanted to be treated like a grown-up. I did not want to buy Teen People, I wanted People magazine.[/quote]

I am 20. just so you know i am speaking from my very recent encounter with teenagehood, and not as some old guy who thinks "bahhh, those kids with their pokeymans and their rap music!"

the big issue i was speaking of is that, a few teenagers like the flashy sermons, but then more show up because that is were their freinds are going, not necessarily because they like the sermons more.

[Winchester]

[quote name='MithLuin' post='1754625' date='Jan 18 2009, 07:29 PM']Um, o-kay. Some of the most sincere Christians I have known have been non-denominational. One is now a Methodist minister; one is now a baptized Catholic. There is a lot of variation between non-denominational churches. Most are evangelical, and do make sincere efforts to spread the gospel (even if they tend to be focused on the first step of getting saved, there are lots of resources for discipleship within the church.) They're not [i]all[/i] tele-evangelist personality cults![/quote]I didn't say they were. Nor did I ascribe intent, which is what you are speaking of. Intent does not determine whether one is speaking the truth. Nor does sincerity. In the end, theirs is a house built on sand. In one sense, of course, and I do not speak for the state of their souls; I am not a gnostic--I do not believe knowlege saves. We are slaves to our humanity and all its defects--something upon which I rely heavily as regards my own salvation.

[bonkers]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1754352' date='Jan 18 2009, 01:02 PM']I have never met a person who understood the Mass - the meaning of the Mass and what it actually is - that has abandoned it. You, as can be seen, do not understand the Mass. That is probably a big reason why you were so able to leave the church. If you had understood it, you wouldn't have left. No one that I know has because the Mass has it all. It has Jesus. The Mass doesn't have big lights, big noises, or energetic speakers walking up and down a stage. It does have Jesus though. And in the end it is Jesus that is going to sustain the sheep... not lights, pretty sounds, and good speaking.[/quote]

I just wanted to address this part of your post since the rest is unsubstantiated opinion and I'm sure most protestants have something to say about your claims they worship each other more than god. Of course, there are many priests and nuns who've left the church to become Jews, Muslims, protestants and atheists. Their reasons for leaving usually vary and are complex. The easiest thing to do is call them out and accuse them of being "ignorant", which is basically a personal attack on their intellect and character. My reasons for leaving the church had nothing to do with mass, I would've happily slept through it if it meant going to heaven.

[Winchester]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1754656' date='Jan 18 2009, 07:56 PM']Of course, there are many priests and nuns who've left the church to become Jews, Muslims, protestants and atheists. Their reasons for leaving [i]usually [/i]vary and are complex.[/quote]
How exact you are in your unsubtantiated generalities!

[bonkers]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1754662' date='Jan 18 2009, 08:58 PM']How exact you are in your unsubtantiated generalities![/quote]

Not really. There's loads of stuff out there on the net. In fact, our former lord mayor was an ex-Catholic priests, now outspoken critic of the church on moral issues.

[Winchester]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1754670' date='Jan 18 2009, 08:02 PM']Not really. There's loads of stuff out there on the net. In fact, our former lord mayor was an ex-Catholic priests, now outspoken critic of the church on moral issues.[/quote]
Yes, one guy is loads. And he sounds very complex.

[bonkers]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1754684' date='Jan 18 2009, 08:13 PM']Yes, one guy is loads. And he sounds very complex.[/quote]

Haha! I accept your surrender!

I'm powerful!

[Winchester]

But you're not original. So I win.

[bonkers]

Nice straw man.