Giolla Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1760638' date='Jan 24 2009, 11:02 PM']Or removing the conditions that turn young men and women into suacide bombers. Muslims are not genetically angry and violent, nor were the Anarchists of Russia and the United States, nor were Irish Catholics who blew up English trains. Enviormental factors lead to such behavior. Perhapse we cold spend a little less money making gunships for the Israeli's or spend less time turning a blind eye to Russian atrocities in Chechnya and direct some of that time and money to the appauling conditions that so many Muslims societies are in (I mention Muslims only because the individual in Gitmo were Muslims, the same holds for all terrorist movements).[/quote] Also I like you just point out the Irish Catholics causing terror. Just ignore the Irish Protestants who blew up Catholic schools, The English terrorizing Catholics sense the time Henry 8 couldn't keep it in his pants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Saint Therese' post='1760666' date='Jan 24 2009, 11:19 PM']Its not our responsibility to to solve the problems of other nations.[/quote] It is, morally, when we are a major cause of them. More importantly it is our self interest. [quote]We're can't even respond effectively to our own problems right now. That's what they have governments for. Maybe you should ask the question-why dont' the people of these countries take some sort of action?[/quote] Perhapse when the American backed Egyprian (eternal) President's secret police bash in the skulls of social/human rights activists this retards progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Therese Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1760681' date='Jan 24 2009, 10:28 PM']It is, morally, when we are a major cause of them. More importantly it is our self interest. Perhapse when the American backed Egyprian (eternal) President's secret police bash in the skulls of social/human rights activists this retards progress.[/quote] PLEASE explain to me how we are the cause of these coutries problems? The reason they have problems is they have corrupt gov'ts that don't care about the welfare of their people, and people who won't or ca'nt fight for their rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Giolla' post='1760675' date='Jan 24 2009, 11:25 PM']Also I like you just point out the Irish Catholics causing terror. Just ignore the Irish Protestants who blew up Catholic schools, The English terrorizing Catholics sense the time Henry 8 couldn't keep it in his pants.[/quote] That's my point, like Muslims, Irish Catholics are not just inately violent. One has to ask what is leading to such acts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Saint Therese' post='1760685' date='Jan 24 2009, 11:32 PM']PLEASE explain to me how we are the cause of these coutries problems? The reason they have problems is they have corrupt gov'ts that don't care about the welfare of their people, and people who won't or ca'nt fight for their rights.[/quote] Did you read the last part of the post you were respongin to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Therese Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Did you read my question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giolla Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1760686' date='Jan 24 2009, 11:32 PM']That's my point, like Muslims, Irish Catholics are not just inately violent. One has to ask what is leading to such acts.[/quote] I don't see the correlation between fighting for freedom vs. blowing oneself up because you disagree with one's ideology. Most of the wars in Ireland were fought due to enslavement by the English. Also food for thought IRA were made up of both Catholics and Protestants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Giolla' post='1760662' date='Jan 24 2009, 11:18 PM']Really against conflicting countries? Conflict > Negotiations = Problem solved (very rare) or Conflict > Negotiations > War (usually what happens), or worst case scenario Conflict > War[/quote] There are embargos, UN ultimatums, good intelligence that focuses on defense without war (i.e not dispatching troops abroad), sanctions, etc. -Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Saint Therese' post='1760701' date='Jan 24 2009, 11:38 PM']Did you read my question?[/quote] yes: [i]PLEASE explain to me how we are the cause of these coutries problems? The reason they have problems is they have corrupt gov'ts that don't care about the welfare of their people, and people who won't or ca'nt fight for their rights.[/i] When we back the dictator of Uzbekistan because he is an "ally in the war on terror" we become complicit in his human rights violations. Just like Yeltsin and his atrocities in Chechnya and so many other countries. For some reason we keep acting like we can sleep with the devil and remain virgins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Hassan' post='1760708' date='Jan 24 2009, 11:41 PM']yes: [i]PLEASE explain to me how we are the cause of these coutries problems? The reason they have problems is they have corrupt gov'ts that don't care about the welfare of their people, and people who won't or ca'nt fight for their rights.[/i] When we back the dictator of Uzbekistan because he is an "ally in the war on terror" we become complicit in his human rights violations. Just like Yeltsin and his atrocities in Chechnya and so many other countries. For some reason we keep acting like we can sleep with the devil and remain virgins.[/quote] Speaking of Russia-it's interesting to note that when we boycotted the Moscow Olympics due to Russia's invasion of Afghanistan, it was the Taliban (edit: more accurately, the group that evolved into the Taliban) they were after...-Katie Edited January 25, 2009 by Tinkerlina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Giolla' post='1760703' date='Jan 24 2009, 11:38 PM']I don't see the correlation between fighting for freedom vs. blowing oneself up because you disagree with one's ideology.[/quote] Most of the sociological data suggusts that the modern problem with terrorism in not due to some sort of response to religious imperatives in themselves. The frustrations are expressed in Islamic metaphores and through Islamic mediums because that is the core identity of most people in the Muslim world (and some are true believers) but the cause is more traced back to himiliation and political impotence. Chechen attacks on Russia has a lot more to do with Russian imperialsim than the Chechen's nominal adherance to Islam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Therese Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Being complicit doesn't make one the cause; did we cause them to have a dictator? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Saint Therese' post='1760722' date='Jan 24 2009, 11:48 PM']Being complicit doesn't make one the cause; did we cause them to have a dictator?[/quote] I doubt that question could ever truly be answered fully-the rise of a dictator involves a lot of "backstory", innumerable influences, timing, etc. In many cases, however, the US has been, I would argue, a necessary component for the rise of a dictator. -Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Saint Therese' post='1760722' date='Jan 24 2009, 11:48 PM']Being complicit doesn't make one the cause; did we cause them to have a dictator?[/quote] In the case of Iran yes. We overthrew the democratically elected Muhammad Mosadegh and propped up the Shah. In other cases we simply sustain preexisting despotic regimes. The people seeking a better future getting their skulls bashed in by the despots thugism police forces are not ignorant of this. When one of these disgruntled citizens sees that they cannot overthrough the despotic government of Pakistan while the US funds them then we become their enemy, you have 70% of the population of a nuclear state with an unstable political system supporting "Sheikh Bin Laden" the "great freedom fighter who seeks to liberate the Ummah from the tyrany of American barbarism and imperialism"and we have a big problem. We do not deserve all the blam, but we are a part of it, and cannot pretend that we can ignore the problems without serious consiquences. Edited January 25, 2009 by Hassan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Therese Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Give me a break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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