cmotherofpirl Posted January 24, 2009 Posted January 24, 2009 [quote name='Giolla' post='1760218' date='Jan 24 2009, 02:08 PM']Also we should be allowed to use any tatics of getting useful information necessary.[/quote] That is entirely against Catholics teachings, the ends do not justify the means.
Tinkerlina Posted January 24, 2009 Posted January 24, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1760406' date='Jan 24 2009, 07:33 PM']Assuming the story is correct that means by its own figures that 89% of all those cleared or released have not engaged in any terroristic activities.[/quote] Interesting point-I didn't think of it that way. -Katie
MIKolbe Posted January 24, 2009 Posted January 24, 2009 wow... that's really looking at the glass 1/2 full
Tinkerlina Posted January 24, 2009 Posted January 24, 2009 [quote name='MIkolbe' post='1760413' date='Jan 24 2009, 07:41 PM']wow... that's really looking at the glass 1/2 full [/quote] 89% full
KnightofChrist Posted January 25, 2009 Posted January 25, 2009 "89%" are not yet known to have reentered a life of terrorism. There is also the factor of top secret data on these individuals which we do not have.
Hassan Posted January 25, 2009 Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1760417' date='Jan 24 2009, 07:44 PM']89% full [/quote] that's what I was thinking exactly
Hassan Posted January 25, 2009 Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1760441' date='Jan 24 2009, 08:14 PM']"89%" are not yet known to have reentered a life of terrorism.[/quote] Assuming they ever "entered" it in the first place. [quote]There is also the factor of top secret data on these individuals which we do not have.[/quote] mkay
Tinkerlina Posted January 25, 2009 Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1760441' date='Jan 24 2009, 08:14 PM']"89%" are not yet known to have reentered a life of terrorism. There is also the factor of top secret data on these individuals which we do not have.[/quote] I don't think anyone'e suggesting that we fling open the doors and the detainees ride off into the sunset. The process will take time and there are many issues to work out. However, given the history of human rights abuses at Gitmo, they have little ground to stand on when it comes to having the authority to maintain the detention camp. -Katie
Giolla Posted January 25, 2009 Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1760409' date='Jan 24 2009, 07:38 PM']That is entirely against Catholics teachings, the ends do not justify the means.[/quote] I don't think they should kill them. But we need to extract information to protect our country. If these guys are willing to kill themselves for their beliefs they can take having water poured on them, dogs barking, or it going from really cold to Hot. I think when it comes to protecting our country the people should not question the government.
Tinkerlina Posted January 25, 2009 Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Giolla' post='1760514' date='Jan 24 2009, 09:50 PM']I don't think they should kill them. But we need to extract information to protect our country. If these guys are willing to kill themselves for their beliefs they can take having water poured on them, dogs barking, or it going from really cold to Hot.[/quote] I think that is a grossly sugarcoated description of the "stress and duress" techniques that have been used at Gitmo. [quote name='Giolla' post='1760514' date='Jan 24 2009, 09:50 PM']I think when it comes to protecting our country the people should not question the government.[/quote] In a democracy, the people [i]are[/i] the government. Countries that do not question their government are not any place I'd want to be. -Katie
T-Bone _ Posted January 25, 2009 Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Giolla' post='1760514' date='Jan 24 2009, 06:50 PM']I don't think they should kill them. But we need to extract information to protect our country. If these guys are willing to kill themselves for their beliefs they can take having water poured on them, dogs barking, or it going from really cold to Hot. I think when it comes to protecting our country the people should not question the government.[/quote] What about amputations? Electric shocks? Burning? Thumbscrews? The rack?
Giolla Posted January 25, 2009 Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1760525' date='Jan 24 2009, 09:58 PM']I think that is a grossly sugarcoated description of the "stress and duress" techniques that have been used at Gitmo. In a democracy, the people [i]are[/i] the government. Countries that do not question their government are not any place I'd want to be. -Katie[/quote] I understand. But you can ask questions but they don't necessarily have to answer especially when it comes to protecting one's country. A good soldier doesn't ask questions they just do as they are told without giving it a second thought. I don't necessarily believe that everyone in Gitmo are terrorist but I don't the Gov't to take any questions.
Giolla Posted January 25, 2009 Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='T-Bone _' post='1760537' date='Jan 24 2009, 10:03 PM']What about amputations? Electric shocks? Burning? Thumbscrews? The rack?[/quote] Is the rack still used? Ok allow me to re neg. there are somethings that should not go on ^ But are any of these actually being preformed?
philothea Posted January 25, 2009 Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Giolla' post='1760514' date='Jan 24 2009, 08:50 PM']I don't think they should kill them. But we need to extract information to protect our country. If these guys are willing to kill themselves for their beliefs they can take having water poured on them, dogs barking, or it going from really cold to Hot. I think when it comes to protecting our country the people should not question the government.[/quote] Since when is protecting our country the highest moral priority? We're all going to die anyway; the United States of America will someday come to an end. Our eternal souls and how we conduct ourselves are what matter. Torture is wrong. (It's also useless, but that's another matter.) Moreover, some of the people held there have been found innocent. So, the USA was imprisoning and torturing innocent people. (Some of those people innocent [i]children[/i] if you want to really highlight the evil.) Do you really think this kind of objectively evil behavior is "protecting" our country? What kind of protection do we deserve, doing that? Nevermind the fact that it just inspires people to hate us all the more. Killing them would be a mercy. Men there have begged for death... Nice, huh?
Giolla Posted January 25, 2009 Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='philothea' post='1760578' date='Jan 24 2009, 10:21 PM']Since when is protecting our country the highest moral priority? We're all going to die anyway; the United States of America will someday come to an end. Our eternal souls and how we conduct ourselves are what matter. Torture is wrong. (It's also useless, but that's another matter.) Moreover, some of the people held there have been found innocent. So, the USA was imprisoning and torturing innocent people. (Some of those people innocent [i]children[/i] if you want to really highlight the evil.) Do you really think this kind of objectively evil behavior is "protecting" our country? What kind of protection do we deserve, doing that? Nevermind the fact that it just inspires people to hate us all the more. Killing them would be a mercy. Men there have begged for death... Nice, huh?[/quote] I'm not supporting torture or condoning it. Its not necessarily the country itself but rather the people within the country. How do you know they are innocent? on the other hand I don't know that they are guilty. I have mixed feeling on it, I don't want people mistreated but I don't want some crazy guy flying planes into buildings again.
Tinkerlina Posted January 25, 2009 Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Giolla' post='1760592' date='Jan 24 2009, 10:31 PM']I'm not supporting torture or condoning it. Its not necessarily the country itself but rather the people within the country. How do you know they are innocent? on the other hand I don't know that they are guilty. I have mixed feeling on it, I don't want people mistreated but I don't want some crazy guy flying planes into buildings again.[/quote] No one here wants to see crazy guys flying into buildings again. There are many ways we can have good defense without resorting to torture. -Katie
Giolla Posted January 25, 2009 Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1760605' date='Jan 24 2009, 10:39 PM']No one here wants to see crazy guys flying into buildings again. There are many ways we can have good defense without resorting to torture. -Katie[/quote] Talking doesn't necessarily work. The other option is full fledged war.
philothea Posted January 25, 2009 Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Giolla' post='1760592' date='Jan 24 2009, 09:31 PM']I'm not supporting torture or condoning it. Its not necessarily the country itself but rather the people within the country. How do you know they are innocent? on the other hand I don't know that they are guilty. I have mixed feeling on it, I don't want people mistreated but I don't want some crazy guy flying planes into buildings again.[/quote] Gotcha. After some of the prisoners were held a while, evidence came to light that they could not possibly be involved in what they were accused of. So, some of them were innocent, at least of what they were being held for. I don't know the solution for preventing further attacks. Probably allowing intelligence agencies do what they need to do rather than pursue special commercial interests would help. (By this I mean pursuit of software pirates and so on, which consumed a lot of resources for many years, to little effect.) Ideally, the government should stop doing stupid things like training and supporting crazy terrorists and despots -- even if they're on "our side" this year, but what are the chances of that? (You realize Saddam Hussein was supported but the USA for years, and Osama bin Laden was trained by us?) In any case, a billion-dollar prison in a foreign country so we can contravene our own laws doesn't seem ideal.
Hassan Posted January 25, 2009 Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Giolla' post='1760618' date='Jan 24 2009, 10:47 PM']Talking doesn't necessarily work. The other option is full fledged war.[/quote] Or removing the conditions that turn young men and women into suacide bombers. Muslims are not genetically angry and violent, nor were the Anarchists of Russia and the United States, nor were Irish Catholics who blew up English trains. Enviormental factors lead to such behavior. Perhapse we cold spend a little less money making gunships for the Israeli's or spend less time turning a blind eye to Russian atrocities in Chechnya and direct some of that time and money to the appauling conditions that so many Muslims societies are in (I mention Muslims only because the individual in Gitmo were Muslims, the same holds for all terrorist movements).
Tinkerlina Posted January 25, 2009 Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Giolla' post='1760618' date='Jan 24 2009, 10:47 PM']Talking doesn't necessarily work. The other option is full fledged war.[/quote] Giolla there are usually a few things between talking and war -Katie
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