Entering Synagogues, Praying With Non-christians, Etc.

[Dave]

Is it true there was a time when the Church expressly forbade Catholics to even enter a synagogue? How would that square with Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI's visit(s) to synagogues, and what purpose would such a visit have served anyway?

Also, I understand the Church forbids participation in the religious ceremonies of non-Christians. How does that square with Pope Benedict XVI's visit to a mosque, for example, where some say he prayed with Muslims? Of course, he prayed there, but that doesn't mean he was praying with the Muslims (as in actually participating in their ceremonies) -- I figure he was saying his own prayer. So what would one say to an individual who says, "How do you know he WASN'T praying with them?"

As you can see, I'm dealing with more extreme traditionalist arguments.

Edited February 1, 2009 by Dave

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Dave' post='1768727' date='Feb 1 2009, 02:50 PM']Is it true there was a time when the Church expressly forbade Catholics to even enter a synagogue? How would that square with Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI's visit(s) to synagogues, and what purpose would such a visit have served anyway?

Also, I understand the Church forbids participation in the religious ceremonies of non-Christians. How does that square with Pope Benedict XVI's visit to a mosque, for example, where some say he prayed with Muslims? Of course, he prayed there, but that doesn't mean he was praying with the Muslims (as in actually participating in their ceremonies) -- I figure he was saying his own prayer. So what would one say to an individual who says, "How do you know he WASN'T praying with them?"

As you can see, I'm dealing with more extreme traditionalist arguments. [/quote]
Yes, it is true. The ancient canons forbade Christians from praying with non-Christians.

Many of the Eastern Orthodox Churches still apply this discipline. The particular canons in question can be found in a book called the [i]Pedalion[/i].

[Dave]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1768757' date='Feb 1 2009, 06:11 PM']Yes, it is true. The ancient canons forbade Christians from praying with non-Christians.

Many of the Eastern Orthodox Churches still apply this discipline. The particular canons in question can be found in a book called the [i]Pedalion[/i].[/quote]

Well then if it was merely a discipline, what does one say to those who argue that the discipline is (or should be) still in force and thus accuse John Paul II and Benedict XVI of mortal sin?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Dave' post='1768759' date='Feb 1 2009, 03:14 PM']Well then if it was merely a discipline, what does one say to those who argue that the discipline is (or should be) still in force and thus accuse John Paul II and Benedict XVI of mortal sin?[/quote]
I would tell them that they should obey their Patriarch.

[Dave]

Anyone wish to comment on the rest of my post?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Dave' post='1768759' date='Feb 1 2009, 06:14 PM']Well then if it was merely a discipline, what does one say to those who argue that the discipline is (or should be) still in force and thus accuse John Paul II and Benedict XVI of mortal sin?[/quote]

The Church decides what the disciplines are and decides what is in force and what is not.

[Dave]

[quote name='Dave' post='1768727' date='Feb 1 2009, 05:50 PM']Also, I understand the Church forbids participation in the religious ceremonies of non-Christians. How does that square with Pope Benedict XVI's visit to a mosque, for example, where some say he prayed with Muslims? Of course, he prayed there, but that doesn't mean he was praying with the Muslims (as in actually participating in their ceremonies) -- I figure he was saying his own prayer. So what would one say to an individual who says, "How do you know he WASN'T praying with them?"[/quote]

Would anyone like to comment on the above portion of my original post?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Dave' post='1768886' date='Feb 1 2009, 05:59 PM']Would anyone like to comment on the above portion of my original post?[/quote]
Visiting a mosque is not the same thing as participating in a religious ceremony. As far as the other point is concerned, I don't remember hearing anything about Pope Benedict praying with Muslims.

[Dave]

This previous thread actually deals with that issue -- [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=61352"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=61352[/url]

I think the article included in Post #9 by The Little Way is a good explanation of it, but how does one deal with someone who says something like, "How do you know he wasn't praying with them and just saying his own personal prayer?"

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Dave' post='1768920' date='Feb 1 2009, 09:21 PM']This previous thread actually deals with that issue -- [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=61352"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=61352[/url]

I think the article included in Post #9 by The Little Way is a good explanation of it, but how does one deal with someone who says something like, "How do you know he wasn't praying with them and just saying his own personal prayer?"[/quote]

Because he IS the Holy Father, and if that isn't good enough, nothing you say will be.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Dave' post='1768920' date='Feb 1 2009, 06:21 PM']This previous thread actually deals with that issue -- [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=61352"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=61352[/url]

I think the article included in Post #9 by The Little Way is a good explanation of it, but how does one deal with someone who says something like, "How do you know he wasn't praying with them and just saying his own personal prayer?"[/quote]
The Vatican itself denies that he was praying, and I hope he was not, i.e., for the sake of true ecumenism with the Orthodox who would see such an act as sacrilegious.

The article in the other thread gives the views of its authors, and not the Pope.

Edited February 2, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

For all we know the Pope's lips could have been moving because he was saying, "This building does not compare to the beauty of St. Peter's."

[tinytherese]

Hmm, I attended a Reformed Jewish shabbat last November for an assignment in my world religions class in a synogogue and wrote a paper on that. The issue of it being sinful to enter a synagogue never occured to me.

[Nihil Obstat]

If it's done with the proper spirit, I think it's a healthy thing.
"Interfaith dialogue."
There's nothing wrong, I think, with at least seeing firsthand how a different faith worships. Feeling the atmosphere, seeing the people.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1768944' date='Feb 1 2009, 09:44 PM']The Vatican itself denies that he was praying, and I hope he was not, i.e., for the sake of true ecumenism with the Orthodox who would see such an act as sacrilegious.

The article in the other thread gives the views of its authors, and not the Pope.[/quote]

Not sure about Benedict, but I think I remember that when JPII visited a Mosque, he prayed in his way, the rest of the attendees in theirs-i.e, JPII didn't face Mecca. I know you think it's theological indifferentism, but I think praying together, each in our own way, is beautiful. -Katie

Edit: Just remembered, my Church had a trip to a Synagogue and we listened to a talk with the Rabbi and such-it was an amazing experience and it actually helped strengthen my Faith.

Edited February 2, 2009 by Tinkerlina

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1769252' date='Feb 1 2009, 10:04 PM']Not sure about Benedict, but I think I remember that when JPII visited a Mosque, he prayed in his way, the rest of the attendees in theirs-i.e, JPII didn't face Mecca. I know you think it's theological indifferentism, but I think praying together, each in our own way, is beautiful. -Katie[/quote]
Certainly you have a right to your opinion.

Nevertheless, as an Eastern Catholic I look forward with joy to the day when Catholics (Roman and Eastern) and Eastern Orthodox can pray and receive holy communion together, but if the Pope (and Roman Catholics in general) keep praying with Muslims, Jews, Hindus, et al., then the restoration of communion will never happen, because the majority of Eastern Orthodox Churches refuse to participate in indifferentist activities.

Edited February 2, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1769271' date='Feb 2 2009, 01:13 AM']Certainly you have a right to your opinion.

Nevertheless, as an Eastern Catholic I look forward with joy to the day when Catholics (Roman and Eastern) and Eastern Orthodox can pray and receive holy communion together, but if the Pope (and Roman Catholics in general) keep praying with Muslims, Jews, Hindus, et al., then the restoration of communion will never happen, because the majority of Eastern Orthodox Churches refuse to participate in indifferentist activities.[/quote]

I maintain that ecumenism is not indifferentism. I can disagree with someone on some things but still focus on what we have in common and spend time with them, learn more about them, etc.-Katie

Edited February 2, 2009 by Tinkerlina

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1769277' date='Feb 1 2009, 10:16 PM']I maintain that ecumenism is not indifferentism. -Katie[/quote]
The term "ecumenism" applies only to Christians.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1769278' date='Feb 2 2009, 01:17 AM']The term "ecumenism" applies only to Christians.[/quote]

Not necessarily, depends on how one views it. -Katie

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1769285' date='Feb 1 2009, 10:20 PM']Not necessarily, depends on how one views it. -Katie[/quote]
Ecumenism is about reuniting Christians into one "oikoumene" (i.e., one Christian household). Don't confuse inter-religious dialogue, which simply has a goal of trying to insure peaceful co-existence, with ecumenism, which is about reuniting all the baptized into the one Catholic Church.