Entering Synagogues, Praying With Non-christians, Etc.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1770765' date='Feb 3 2009, 01:55 AM']Islam began a war of aggression that lasted 800 years against the Byzantine Christians (and that war ongoing for Orthodox Christians who live in the Islamic world), and that you make excuses for the followers of Mohammad is reprehensible.[/quote]


I wish I could say I expected something other than white noise, but that'd be a lie. If you want to have a serious discussion just let me know.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1770778' date='Feb 3 2009, 02:09 AM']Apotheoun,

Although I agree that no heretic offers true worship to God, I don't know if that means that one couldn't say that they offer "worship" (in it's broadest possible definition as opposed to Christian adoration) to the true God. It is a very subtle difference (if any).

Really what is sin then a distorted good. The distortion here is the things attributed to God.

I'm not sure if that holds at all. I would most surely say that their worship is not pure, true, or good (as that would be theological relativism), but I don't know if we could deny that they are at least attempting to worship the same God. The knowledge of God is lacking (Judaism lacks trinitarian theology accepting Christ as the 2nd person of the Trinity, Muslim is lacking... well... a lot).

Maybe an analogy or two.
Someone that plays the violin very well = Catholic
Someone that uses some sort of device to make a violin make noise = muslim/jew
Same instrument but one is music (true worship) while the other is not only not music, but a distortion and "evil" of music.

If my cousin when recalling the one time he met me thinks I have blonde hair and green eyes (even though I have brown hair and blue eyes) is he then not thinking of me? Him having my hair and eye color wrong is obviously not true (theological heresy), although the person whom he was recalling is still me, but distorted.

Although we cannot say they worship God with what worship truly means, I don't know if it is fair that because they are not in the fullness of truth and lacking key Christian doctrines it must therefore be a different god altogether rather then a distorted picture of the true God.[/quote]


that sounds resonable. I still don't really understand where one would fall into sin with the interfaith prayer. Like at what point have they gone to far?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1770827' date='Feb 3 2009, 12:14 AM']I wish I could say I expected something other than white noise, but that'd be a lie. If you want to have a serious discussion just let me know.[/quote]
I should have expected an ad hominem from you.

God grant you many years.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1770828' date='Feb 3 2009, 12:17 AM']that sounds resonable. I still don't really understand where one would fall into sin with the interfaith prayer. Like at what point have they gone to far?[/quote]
Alas, his comments have no basis of support in the Patristic and canonical tradition of the Church.

[Archaeology cat]

Jumping in here, without having read all the posts. I apologise in advance if I'm repeating what's been said. I have come to think that it isn't really a good idea to attend a service* at a non-Catholic venue. I say this because it can cause confusion, and thus a third party might assume you are endorsing the other place of worship by virtue of being at a religious service. This, then, could cause scandal. If anyone remembers me from when I first joined PM (under the SN of shinobininjasp), you'll know that I did not hold this view at first, but I've since seen the confusion caused to my family if I attend a non-Catholic service. They then assume that I'm OK with the beliefs of the other place of worship, which is certainly not the case. Yes, dialogue is necessary and good, but attending a non-Catholic religious service does not seem prudent to me. Bear in mind that this is my view on things, based on my own experiences.

*I'm not speaking of going to, say, Hebrew classes at a synagogue, an informational presentation on Islam at a mosque, or even a knitting class at a non-Catholic venue, as such events would not carry with them the expectation that you endorse the views of that religious institution. I am speaking only of religious events: services, prayer meetings, etc. I think I might even throw non-Catholic Bible study groups in there, if they are affiliated with a specific church, but I'm not entirely sure with that one right now.

[Apotheoun]

As I have said before, there is a difference between Christians praying [b]fo[/b]r non-Christians and praying [b]with[/b] non-Christians; the ancient God-inspired Fathers required the former, while rejecting the latter as incompatible with the Orthodox profession of the Christian faith.

[rkwright]

Apo - back on page 1 you answered that these older disciplines prevent praying with non-Christians... Can these disciplines be changed? Do you see JPII as violating these?

I think Dave asked this same question and you said "obey your Patriarch". Certainly if my Patriarch is committing a sin, I wouldn't want to do that?

[Paddington]

Apo,

Should I assume that you don't want non-Catholics to attend Mass?

Paddington

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1770925' date='Feb 3 2009, 10:46 AM']As I have said before, there is a difference between Christians praying [b]fo[/b]r non-Christians and praying [b]with[/b] non-Christians; the ancient God-inspired Fathers required the former, while rejecting the latter as incompatible with the Orthodox profession of the Christian faith.[/quote]

Which Church Fathers said, infallibly, that we are not to pray with people of other faiths? -Katie

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1770884' date='Feb 3 2009, 09:17 AM']Jumping in here, without having read all the posts. I apologise in advance if I'm repeating what's been said. I have come to think that it isn't really a good idea to attend a service* at a non-Catholic venue. I say this because it can cause confusion, and thus a third party might assume you are endorsing the other place of worship by virtue of being at a religious service. This, then, could cause scandal. If anyone remembers me from when I first joined PM (under the SN of shinobininjasp), you'll know that I did not hold this view at first, but I've since seen the confusion caused to my family if I attend a non-Catholic service. They then assume that I'm OK with the beliefs of the other place of worship, which is certainly not the case. Yes, dialogue is necessary and good, but attending a non-Catholic religious service does not seem prudent to me. Bear in mind that this is my view on things, based on my own experiences.

*I'm not speaking of going to, say, Hebrew classes at a synagogue, an informational presentation on Islam at a mosque, or even a knitting class at a non-Catholic venue, as such events would not carry with them the expectation that you endorse the views of that religious institution. I am speaking only of religious events: services, prayer meetings, etc. I think I might even throw non-Catholic Bible study groups in there, if they are affiliated with a specific church, but I'm not entirely sure with that one right now.[/quote]
I agree. I have attended only for weddings of non-catholics, funerals, and with the Scouts.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1771091' date='Feb 3 2009, 02:27 PM']Which Church Fathers said, infallibly, that we are not to pray with people of other faiths? -Katie[/quote]
Back then the only other people would have been heretics or pagans, and we certainly cannot pray with them.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1771086' date='Feb 3 2009, 11:23 AM']Apo,

Should I assume that you don't want non-Catholics to attend Mass?

Paddington[/quote]
The Churches of both East and West have allowed (at least since the 3rd century) non-Christians to attend the divine liturgy, at least during what the Roman Church calls the "liturgy of the Word", but normally required such individuals to leave prior to the Anaphora.

Edited February 3, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1771187' date='Feb 3 2009, 07:20 PM']I agree. I have attended only for weddings of non-catholics, funerals, and with the Scouts.[/quote]
Seems like a good policy. When I first converted, I would still attend my parents' Methodist services with them on occasion, but I saw that it just confused my mother (I don't know about my dad, since he doesn't talk all that much), so that she thought I agreed with what their church taught. So I don't go with them now, though they sometimes come to Mass with me if they're in (they didn't used to do so).

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1771190' date='Feb 3 2009, 03:21 PM']Back then the only other people would have been heretics or pagans, and we certainly cannot pray with them.[/quote]

When I say pray with, I don't mean "worship with"-I mean like how Mother Theresa used to pray with Hindus-she would say "You pray your way, I'll pray mine, we'll pray together." I don't see what's wrong here as long as we are not offering worship to a different God. -Katie

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1771091' date='Feb 3 2009, 11:27 AM']Which Church Fathers said, infallibly, that we are not to pray with people of other faiths? -Katie[/quote]
It is the Patristic Tradition and not individual Fathers that is infallible, and that tradition can be found in their writings, but also in the collections of canons made by the authority of the Patriarchs over the course of the centuries.

The condemnations of those who pray with pagans and heretics can be found in a book called the Pedalion (a compilation of canons from all the local and ecumenical councils of the Church). Below are two of the canons, I don't have my copy of the text at work, but I found these two canons online:

Apostolic Canon 45: [i]Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon that merely joins in prayer with heretics be suspended, but if he has permitted them to perform any service as Clergymen, let him be deposed.[/i]

Apostolic Canon 65: [i]If any Clergyman, or Layman, enter a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics, to pray, let him be both deposed and excommunicated.[/i]

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1771244' date='Feb 3 2009, 03:58 PM']It is the Patristic Tradition and not individual Fathers that is infallible, and that tradition can be found in their writings, but also in the collections of canons made by the authority of the Patriarchs over the course of the centuries.

The condemnations of those who pray with pagans and heretics can be found in a book called the Pedalion (a compilation of canons from all the local and ecumenical councils of the Church). Below are two of the canons, I don't have my copy of the text at work, but I found these two canons online:

Apostolic Canon 45: [i]Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon that merely joins in prayer with heretics be suspended, but if he has permitted them to perform any service as Clergymen, let him be deposed.[/i]

Apostolic Canon 65: [i]If any Clergyman, or Layman, enter a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics, to pray, let him be both deposed and excommunicated.[/i][/quote]

Could this have been referring to specific cultural issues of the time? Also, could what they mean by" pray with" be different from our understanding? I mean, like someone else pointed out, both Popes Benedict XVI and JPII have prayed with people of other faiths and whether you think it's a good idea or not, Vatican II does allow it. -Katie

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1771241' date='Feb 3 2009, 12:55 PM']When I say pray with, I don't mean "worship with"-I mean like how Mother Theresa used to pray with Hindus-she would say "You pray your way, I'll pray mine, we'll pray together." I don't see what's wrong here as long as we are not offering worship to a different God. -Katie[/quote]
The ancient Church forbade Christians [b]from[/b] both worshiping and praying with heretics and pagans.

Nevertheless, the Fathers held that Christians are duty bound to pray [b]for[/b] heretics and pagans.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1771258' date='Feb 3 2009, 04:22 PM']The ancient Church forbade Christians [b]from[/b] both worshiping and praying with heretics and pagans.

Nevertheless, the Fathers held that Christians are duty bound to pray [b]for[/b] heretics and pagans.[/quote]

The ancient Church also forbade men from cutting their hair and women from not covering their heads at Church, customs which change. I'm assuming this was a custom as clergy have prayed with other faiths...-Katie

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1771283' date='Feb 3 2009, 01:41 PM']The ancient Church also forbade men from cutting their hair and women from not covering their heads at Church, customs which change. I'm assuming this was a custom as clergy have prayed with other faiths...-Katie[/quote]
The ancient Church never forbade men from cutting their hair, unless they took a vow like that of the Nazarites, but most men in the Holy Land wore longer hair in Biblical times. As far as women covering their heads during liturgy is concerned, that practice has been established by a divine command, and so it should still be done.

Edited February 3, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1771249' date='Feb 3 2009, 01:04 PM']Could this have been referring to specific cultural issues of the time? Also, could what they mean by" pray with" be different from our understanding? I mean, like someone else pointed out, both Popes Benedict XVI and JPII have prayed with people of other faiths and whether you think it's a good idea or not, Vatican II does allow it. -Katie[/quote]
No, the prohibition against praying with heretics and pagans was not a "cultural issue"; instead, it is connected with the commandment to properly worship God. Now, if Christ had said, "I am [b]a[/b] way, and [b]a[/b] truth, and [b]a[/b] life," then I suppose praying with heretics and pagans would be acceptable, but He did not say that, instead He said, "I am [b]the[/b] way, and [b]the[/b] truth, and [b]the[/b] life, and no one comes to the Father except by Me." No one, not even the Pope can alter what has been divinely revealed.