Veridicus Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1771320' date='Feb 3 2009, 04:16 PM']As far as women covering their heads during liturgy is concerned, that practice has been established by a divine command, and so it should still be done.[/quote] You shouldn't say things like that, it grates against modern sentiments...
Veridicus Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1771327' date='Feb 3 2009, 04:19 PM']No, the prohibition against praying with heretics and pagans was not a "cultural issue"; instead, it is connected with the commandment to properly worship God. Now, if Christ had said, "I am [b]a[/b] way, and [b]a[/b] truth, and [b]a[/b] life," then I suppose praying with heretics and pagans would be acceptable, but He did not say that, instead He said, "I am [b]the[/b] way, and [b]the[/b] truth, and [b]the[/b] life, and no one comes to the Father except by Me." No one, not even the Pope can alter what has been divinely revealed.[/quote] Just asking for a clarification; I pretty much agree with everything you've said... So if an individual prays appropriately but happens to be doing it with an inappropriately-aligned group (i.e. muslims), that person's prayer is ineffectual or somethow polluted by the heresy of those present? But if a heretic prays during the Liturgy of the Word it doesn't affect the worship of orthodox Christians?
Apotheoun Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='Veridicus' post='1771354' date='Feb 3 2009, 02:26 PM']Just asking for a clarification; I pretty much agree with everything you've said... So if an individual prays appropriately but happens to be doing it with an inappropriately-aligned group (i.e. muslims), that person's prayer is ineffectual or somethow polluted by the heresy of those present? But if a heretic prays during the Liturgy of the Word it doesn't affect the worship of orthodox Christians?[/quote] Pollution is a good word to describe it. Now, praying [b]for[/b] heretics and pagans is a good thing, and the Church does this even during her liturgical services. But if a Christian were to pray [b]with[/b] a group of heretics or pagans, he would -- according to the God-inspired Fathers and the ancient canons -- be automatically excommunicated and would have to do penance before being restored to communion with God and His Church.
Veridicus Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1771358' date='Feb 3 2009, 04:31 PM']Pollution is a good word to describe it. Now, praying [b]for[/b] heretics and pagans is a good thing, and the Church does this even during her liturgical services. But if a Christian were to pray [b]with[/b] a group of heretics or pagans, he would -- according to the God-inspired Fathers and the ancient canons -- be automatically excommunicated and would have to do penance before being restored to communion with God and His Church.[/quote] But such pollution isn't brought into the Divine Mysteries by the presence of a heretic or pagan amongst those practicing the orthodox faith?
Apotheoun Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='Veridicus' post='1771354' date='Feb 3 2009, 02:26 PM']But if a heretic prays during the Liturgy of the Word it doesn't affect the worship of orthodox Christians?[/quote] It is not the "prayers" of the heretic who happens to be "praying" during the liturgy of the Word that are effective, but the prayers of the whole Church gathered together in Christ's name that are efficacious.
Apotheoun Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='Veridicus' post='1771362' date='Feb 3 2009, 02:33 PM']But such pollution isn't brought into the Divine Mysteries by the presence of a heretic or pagan amongst those practicing the orthodox faith?[/quote] The divine liturgy would not be polluted, because it is an action of Christ (i.e., of the Whole Christ: Head and body), but if a non-Christian were to attend the liturgy out of an impure motive, he would commit an act of sacrilege, which would increase his culpable punishment in the next life, i.e., if he failed to convert to the Orthodox faith of the Church.
Veridicus Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 (edited) Gotcha. Edited February 3, 2009 by Veridicus
Apotheoun Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 (edited) Todd, When it comes to sacred things (e.g., the Eucharistic elements, or an icon, etc.), neither you, nor I, nor anyone else for that matter, can truly harm them (i.e., harm Christ's presence within a sacred object). But if a man were to do something sacrilegious with a sacred thing, he would bring harm upon himself. God grant you many happy years, Todd Edited February 3, 2009 by Apotheoun
Tinkerlina Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='Veridicus' post='1771345' date='Feb 3 2009, 05:23 PM']You shouldn't say things like that, it grates against modern sentiments...[/quote] It's also not required by the Roman Catholic Church. -Katie
Tinkerlina Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1771327' date='Feb 3 2009, 05:19 PM']No, the prohibition against praying with heretics and pagans was not a "cultural issue"; instead, it is connected with the commandment to properly worship God. Now, if Christ had said, "I am [b]a[/b] way, and [b]a[/b] truth, and [b]a[/b] life," then I suppose praying with heretics and pagans would be acceptable, but He did not say that, instead He said, "I am [b]the[/b] way, and [b]the[/b] truth, and [b]the[/b] life, and no one comes to the Father except by Me." No one, not even the Pope can alter what has been divinely revealed.[/quote] I didn't say that Jesus wasn't THE way, truth and life. I think you are misconstruing what I'm saying. But, since you don't accept the authority of the Pope or Vatican II, I think our worldviews are very different and I don't think we'll ever agree on this, so I'm not going to debate it further, this is what, the third time we've debated this issue? -Katie
rkwright Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 Apo - can those disciplines be changed? What is your explanation of the actions of the Holy Father?
Apotheoun Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='rkwright' post='1771490' date='Feb 3 2009, 05:13 PM']Apo - can those disciplines be changed?[/quote] Not the canons related to worship, because the manner of worship is a divinely revealed truth. [quote name='rkwright' post='1771490' date='Feb 3 2009, 05:13 PM']What is your explanation of the actions of the Holy Father?[/quote] That is for the Holy Father to do.
Apotheoun Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1771456' date='Feb 3 2009, 04:22 PM']I didn't say that Jesus wasn't THE way, truth and life. I think you are misconstruing what I'm saying.[/quote] To "pray" with people who are not praying in, with, and through Jesus Christ -- whether you like it or not -- involves a denial of His being the way, the truth, and the life. [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1771456' date='Feb 3 2009, 04:22 PM']But, since you don't accept the authority of the Pope or Vatican II, I think our worldviews are very different and [b]I don't think we'll ever agree on this[/b], so I'm not going to debate it further, this is what, the third time we've debated this issue? -Katie[/quote] Yes, we shall have to agree to disagree, because I refuse to apostatize from the Christian faith by praying with heretics and pagans. Nevertheless, I shall gladly pray for heretics and pagans, because that is a Christian duty. Christ is the sole mediator between God and man.
rkwright Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1771505' date='Feb 3 2009, 08:01 PM']Not the canons related to worship, because the manner of worship is a divinely revealed truth.[/quote] Well ok, but this doesn't sit completely well with me. Obviously parts of the 'manner of worship' are not divinely revealed truth, for example the different liturgies. What is to distinguish these "manner of worship" from ones that can change? (Not to guess the answer, but does it have something to do with the fact that these are canons and not say norms?)
rkwright Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 (edited) Apo a quick questions... maybe obvious... Can one be in the presence of others praying without praying 'with' them? Instead praying 'for' them or just praying? For example, say at a baseball game or a moment of silence? Second, would praying 'with' non-Catholic Christians deny other divinely revealed truths, for example the primacy of Peter or Sacred tradition? Edited February 4, 2009 by rkwright
Apotheoun Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 (edited) [quote name='rkwright' post='1771512' date='Feb 3 2009, 06:14 PM']Apo a quick questions... maybe obvious... Can one be in the presence of others praying without praying 'with' them? Instead praying 'for' them or just praying? For example, say at a baseball game or a moment of silence?[/quote] Yes. Hopefully this is what was happening when Benedict XVI was in the Blue Mosque. [quote name='rkwright' post='1771512' date='Feb 3 2009, 06:14 PM']Second, would praying 'with' non-Catholic Christians deny other divinely revealed truths, for example the primacy of Peter or Sacred tradition?[/quote] It could, and that is why it should be generally avoided. The only other true local Churches are the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches, because they have valid priesthood and sacraments, and so they are Christians in the fullest sense of the term. Edited February 4, 2009 by Apotheoun
Apotheoun Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='rkwright' post='1771510' date='Feb 3 2009, 06:10 PM']Well ok, but this doesn't sit completely well with me. Obviously parts of the 'manner of worship' are not divinely revealed truth, for example the different liturgies. What is to distinguish these "manner of worship" from ones that can change? (Not to guess the answer, but does it have something to do with the fact that these are canons and not say norms?)[/quote] Prayer and worship is directed to the Father, through the Son, and in the Holy Spirit, and anything else is not prayer or worship. In addition, valid priesthood is necessary in order to offer Ortho Doxa.
Apotheoun Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='rkwright' post='1771510' date='Feb 3 2009, 06:10 PM'](Not to guess the answer, but does it have something to do with the fact that these are canons and not say norms?)[/quote] The ancient Church did not distinguish between "canons" and "norms," but the Fathers did distinguish between canons that are founded upon divine revelation, and those that are merely of human origin. Canons dealing with worship of the one true God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are founded upon divine revelation, i.e., they are founded upon the truth that Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, and -- based upon what He taught -- that worship is always Trinitarian.
Hassan Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1770832' date='Feb 3 2009, 03:20 AM']I should have expected an ad hominem from you. God grant you many years.[/quote] It's not an ad hominem. Nowhere did I claim that the Byzantine Empire attacked the Arabs first, yet you accuse me of not being intellectually honest enough to admit a claim I never made was false, I then point this out and, once again, you avoid the subject and go on another little spiel about "Islam's war of aggression" against the Byzantium Empire. hope you stick around a while as well
Apotheoun Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 Hassan, You constantly make excuses for Muslim aggression. Islam was spread across North Africa, throughout the Middle East, and into Asia Minor and the Balkans by the sword, and it is intellectually dishonest to deny that fact. God grant you many years, Todd
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