Sspx: Jews Are 'our Elder Brothers

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1769802' date='Feb 2 2009, 01:09 PM']In all seriousness, I think it is clear that the SSPX statments villify the Jewish people on grounds outside of theology (which as I have said several times is completely unjust) and their newest statement just seems like semantic garbage to me. But sometimes with the tantilizing hope of Christian Unity you have to eat the semantic garbage and hope you can mold a more rational, loving mindset when they come around on the doctrinal issues which separate them from Mother Church.[/quote]

This is all true. However, we do not need to give those non-Catholics who dislike us any more fuel. They do not understand that Christian unity is more important than such personal opinions and will severely misunderstand. This can deter a lot of people from coming home to the Vatican. Furthermore, as I was reading their disturbing statements against the Jewish people, they actually tied theology into it (as if they were using Christianity to justify their slander) so it does go a little bit beyond personal opinion. It will seriously give non-Catholics the wrong impression.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Seven77' post='1770037' date='Feb 2 2009, 05:48 PM']I don't know what 'Judaism' is but Judaism is not false. It's incomplete and misled through no fault of it's own.[/quote]

It is not simply a matter of incompleteness from my understanding. It is not as if biblical Judaism has been freeze-framed and the Jews of the 21st century practice and believe the same thing that the Temple-based Judaism of the 1st century practiced and beleived. Modern Rabbinic Judaism is a man-made adaptation of the ancient Judaism we read of in the bible. The Council of Jamnia that got rid of the Septuagint from the Jewish scripture took a decidedly anti-Christian perspective and the development of the Talmud as has been stated in previous posts in explicitly anti-christian in several places. Judaism had to REDEFINE itself following the destruction of the temple and in response to the growing Caholic Christian Church...this redefinition is man-made; NOT God-inspired and thus its doctrinal errors are heretical. It is not the inspired Judaism we read of in the Old Testament. As Apotheon stated, Christianity is the rightful and divinely-inspired inheritor of Biblical Judaism.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1770052' date='Feb 2 2009, 05:57 PM']This is all true. However, we do not need to give those non-Catholics who dislike us any more fuel. They do not understand that Christian unity is more important than such personal opinions and will severely misunderstand. This can deter a lot of people from coming home to the Vatican. Furthermore, as I was reading their disturbing statements against the Jewish people, they actually tied theology into it (as if they were using Christianity to justify their slander) so it does go a little bit beyond personal opinion. It will seriously give non-Catholics the wrong impression.[/quote]

I agree with you fully on this. But how are non-Catholics impressed by fractures and schismatic behavior within the 'universal' Church? It is important, in my opinion, to recognize that sometimes the disdain or disgust of those outside the Church is inevitable and that unity within the Church must be the first priority. A "house divided against itself will fall" and all that...and who wants to come ihome right before the roof comes crashing down?

If only it were a more perfect world and we could make EVERYONE happy. Somehow we're gonna irk someone. It's one of those Catch22 I think...like in the movie "The Mission" when the Cardinal says "sometimes a surgeon must cut off a hand in order to save the body of his patient."

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1770045' date='Feb 2 2009, 05:52 PM']Christianity is the continuation and fulfillment of Biblical Judaism, while Rabbinic Judaism is the religion devised by the Rabbis after the time of Christ; the former is true, and the latter is false.

Christ is the sole savior of the world, which means that anyone who is saved is saved by Him.[/quote]

As always your brevity and concision astound my verbose sensibilities...You can say in 3 lines what it takes me a paragraph to say . Haha.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1770068' date='Feb 2 2009, 06:03 PM']But how are non-Catholics impressed by fractures and schismatic behavior within the 'universal' Church?[/quote]

If we are talking non-Catholic Christians, they probably do not recognize "fractures" per se because they [b]themselves[/b] are fractured from Catholicism; plus, they do not understand or believe in the Catholic Church as the one TRUE Church, therefore they do not see fractures as devastatingly as we do. If they have a problem with their church, they may just move on to another denomination without much thought.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1770110' date='Feb 2 2009, 06:24 PM']If we are talking non-Catholic Christians, they probably do not recognize "fractures" per se because they [b]themselves[/b] are fractured from Catholicism; plus, they do not understand or believe in the Catholic Church as the one TRUE Church, therefore they do not see fractures as devastatingly as we do. If they have a problem with their church, they may just move on to another denomination without much thought.[/quote]

Or they may see fractures in our supposed "universality" as another obvious sign of Catholic degeneracy..."They claim to be universal but can't even keep that doctrine...yadayadayada" kind of criticism. I dunno.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1769674' date='Feb 2 2009, 11:12 AM']Islam is also heretical and false.[/quote]

Can we clarify what a heresy is? I thought a person had to first be a baptized Catholic and refused to be corrected in order to be a heretic, which wouldn't apply to intrinsically non Christian religions. -Katie

[Hassan]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1770056' date='Feb 2 2009, 06:58 PM']It is not simply a matter of incompleteness from my understanding. It is not as if biblical Judaism has been freeze-framed and the Jews of the 21st century practice and believe the same thing that the Temple-based Judaism of the 1st century practiced and beleived. Modern Rabbinic Judaism is a man-made adaptation of the ancient Judaism we read of in the bible. The Council of Jamnia that got rid of the Septuagint from the Jewish scripture took a decidedly anti-Christian perspective and the development of the Talmud as has been stated in previous posts in explicitly anti-christian in several places. Judaism had to REDEFINE itself following the destruction of the temple and in response to the growing Caholic Christian Church...this redefinition is man-made; NOT God-inspired and thus its doctrinal errors are heretical. It is not the inspired Judaism we read of in the Old Testament. As Apotheon stated, Christianity is the rightful and divinely-inspired inheritor of Biblical Judaism.[/quote]


But even Biblical Judaism was not static. I mean no religion is really static. Is the Islam of today the Islam of Muhammad? Even the Islam of Ash'ari? I wouldn't say so. The roles of God and satan seem to change through the Old Testament.

Edited February 3, 2009 by Hassan

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1769660' date='Feb 2 2009, 10:24 AM']Catholicism is the one True Faith, Judaism as it is today is heretical, and false.[/quote]

I think disagreeing on theological points and being "anti" seem different though-anti-Judaism seems like too strong a word. -Katie

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1770447' date='Feb 3 2009, 12:15 AM']I think disagreeing on theological points and being "anti" seem different though-anti-Judaism seems like too strong a word. -Katie[/quote]

To disagree with something is to be against it, or anti.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1770556' date='Feb 3 2009, 12:47 AM']To disagree with something is to be against it, or anti.[/quote]

I know, I just think it comes off a bit strong. And vague. -Katie

Edited February 3, 2009 by Tinkerlina

[KnightofChrist]

Strong can be good in many cases where as weak is often bad. It would only be vage till it was explained.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1770649' date='Feb 3 2009, 01:11 AM']Strong can be good in many cases where as weak is often bad. It would only be vage till it was explained.[/quote]

I'd just be careful using that kind of terminology given the people calling the Church anti-semitic with the whole SSPX thing. -Katie

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1770655' date='Feb 2 2009, 10:12 PM']I'd just be careful using that kind of terminology given the people calling the Church anti-semitic with the whole SSPX thing. -Katie[/quote]
Christ is the sole savior of the world, and if some people find that confession of faith "anti-Semitic", that is just too bad, because for a Christian to say something different is to apostatize from the Christian faith.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1770556' date='Feb 2 2009, 11:47 PM']To disagree with something is to be against it, or anti.[/quote]

I disagree with you a lot, does that make me anti-KnightofChrist?

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1770717' date='Feb 3 2009, 01:31 AM']Christ is the sole savior of the world, and if some people find that confession of faith "anti-Semitic", that is just too bad, because for a Christian to say something different is to apostatize from the Christian faith.[/quote]

No one said that saying Christ is the sole Savior of the world is anti-semitic. -Katie

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1770904' date='Feb 3 2009, 07:09 AM']No one said that saying Christ is the sole Savior of the world is anti-semitic. -Katie[/quote]
The implied consequence of holding that Christ is the sole savior of the world is that there is no salvation in Rabbinic Judaism, and of course there are some Rabbinic Jews who take offense at that profession of Christian faith and who hold that it is "anti-Semitic."

That said, any Christian who holds that Rabbinic Judaism is a valid religion that leads to God has embraced the heresy of theological indifferentism.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1770907' date='Feb 3 2009, 10:15 AM']The implied consequence of holding that Christ is the sole savior of the world is that there is no salvation in Rabbinic Judaism, and of course there are some Rabbinic Jews who take offense at that profession of Christian faith and who hold that it is "anti-Semitic."[/quote]

Perhaps, but I think the SSPX is doing a lot more here than proclaiming Christ as sole Savior.
-Katie

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1770911' date='Feb 3 2009, 07:18 AM']Perhaps, but I think the SSPX is doing a lot more here than proclaiming Christ as sole Savior.
-Katie[/quote]
That may be, yet I must admit that I am not only concerned about their comments regarding the Jews on issues unrelated to theology, but I am also concerned by your comments which imply that you have embraced theological indifferentism on questions relating to Judaism and Islam.

Edited February 3, 2009 by Apotheoun

[cmotherofpirl]

Jesus is the salvation of the world. What may we say about the jews then, besides the fact they must convert to be saved?