Sspx: Jews Are 'our Elder Brothers

[Formosus]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1771460' date='Feb 3 2009, 07:26 PM']The Father and Son are one (along with the Holy Spirit of course). Islam does not properly understand the Trinitarian nature of God, but, in my opinion, acknowledging the God of the old Testament/Abrahamic God, they are worshipping the same God as us, though not in a complete way. -Katie[/quote]



They don't acknowledge God as presented in the OT when they don't even read the OT, but rather the Koran. The God of the OT was specifically a revelation to the Jewish people originally, yet the Muslims do not go out and become Jews. The god of islam has far more in common with the pagan gods of Arabia then he does with the God of Abraham and Isaac.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Formosus' post='1771534' date='Feb 3 2009, 09:42 PM']They don't acknowledge God as presented in the OT when they don't even read the OT, but rather the Koran. The God of the OT was specifically a revelation to the Jewish people originally, yet the Muslims do not go out and become Jews. The god of islam has far more in common with the pagan gods of Arabia then he does with the God of Abraham and Isaac.[/quote]

I thought the OT was part of Muslim tradition, as I thought the beginning of Islam was Mohammed's Mission to "reform" Christians and Jews. -Katie

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1771594' date='Feb 3 2009, 08:47 PM']I thought the OT was part of Muslim tradition, as I thought the beginning of Islam was Mohammed's Mission to "reform" Christians and Jews. -Katie[/quote]
Nope. The sacred book of the Muslims is the Quran, and not the Bible. See, you learn something new every day at Phatmass.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1771460' date='Feb 3 2009, 04:26 PM']The Father and Son are one (along with the Holy Spirit of course). Islam does not properly understand the Trinitarian nature of God, but, [b]in my opinion[/b], acknowledging the God of the old Testament/Abrahamic God, they are worshipping the same God as us, though not in a complete way. -Katie[/quote]
Your opinion is contrary to Catholic doctrine, because the God of the Old Testament is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1771598' date='Feb 3 2009, 11:51 PM']Nope. The sacred book of the Muslims is the Quran, and not the Bible. See, you learn something new every day at Phatmass.[/quote]

I realize that the Koran is the sacred book of Islam, however, if I'm not mistaken their roots are in the Old Testament. -Katie

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1771601' date='Feb 3 2009, 11:52 PM']Your opinion is contrary to Catholic doctrine, because the God of the Old Testament is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.[/quote]

Like I said before, I'm not debating this for the FOURTH time. -Katie

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1771609' date='Feb 3 2009, 08:57 PM']Like I said before, I'm not debating this for the FOURTH time. -Katie[/quote]
Yes, you have said that several times already, but this thread is in the Debate Table.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1771607' date='Feb 3 2009, 08:57 PM']I realize that the Koran is the sacred book of Islam, however, if I'm not mistaken their roots are in the Old Testament. -Katie[/quote]
Nope. Mohammad occasionally -- and with many errors -- makes allusions to the Old and New Testaments, but it is clear that he was not really familiar with those texts. The Quran is a spurious book filled with theological error.

Edited February 4, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Formosus' post='1771534' date='Feb 3 2009, 06:42 PM']The god of islam has far more in common with the pagan gods of Arabia then he does with the God of Abraham and Isaac.[/quote]
Well said!!!

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1771614' date='Feb 4 2009, 12:00 AM']Yes, you have said that several times already, but this thread is in the Debate Table.[/quote]

I am cupable for getting off topic along with you, although to the best of my recollection that was only the second time I said I didn't want to debate my freedom to believe what I believe (though you brought it up), but I do believe the point of this debate was the SSPX...I do apologize to all for getting completely off topic.-Katie

Edited February 4, 2009 by Tinkerlina

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1771619' date='Feb 3 2009, 09:05 PM']I am cupable for getting off topic along with you (though you brought it up), but I do believe the point of this debate was the SSPX...I do apologize to all for getting completely off topic.-Katie[/quote]
Yes, and the argument developed naturally into one about the difference between anti-Semitism and the legitimate and necessary rejection by Catholics of the theological claims of Rabbinic Judaism (and by extension Islam). I thought you had been following the development of the argument, but I apologize, because clearly I was mistaken.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1771460' date='Feb 3 2009, 07:26 PM']The Father and Son are one (along with the Holy Spirit of course). Islam does not properly understand the Trinitarian nature of God, but, in my opinion, acknowledging the God of the old Testament/Abrahamic God, they are worshipping the same God as us, though not in a complete way. -Katie[/quote]

It is not that they do not [i]properly understand[/i] the Trinitarian nature of God, they outright reject it. And outright reject the divinity of Jesus Christ. And yes it was my main point that the Father and Son are ONE, Jesus Christ is fully God. Islam rejects Christ as God, they therefor reject God. It is not really possible to believe in God and to reject God.

[i]People of the Book, do not go to excess in your religion, and do not say anything about God except the truth:[b] the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, [u]was nothing more[/u] than a messenger of God, His word, directed to Mary, a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers and do not speak of a 'Trinity[/b]' - stop, that is better for you - God is only one God, He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to trust. (Qur'an 4:171, M. A. S. Abdel-Haleem translation)[/i]

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1771623' date='Feb 4 2009, 12:08 AM']It is not that they do not [i]properly understand[/i] the Trinitarian nature of God, they outright reject it. And outright reject the divinity of Jesus Christ. And yes it was my main point that the Father and Son are ONE, Jesus Christ is fully God. Islam rejects Christ as God, they therefor reject God. It is not really possible to believe in God and to reject God.

[i]People of the Book, do not go to excess in your religion, and do not say anything about God except the truth:[b] the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, [u]was nothing more[/u] than a messenger of God, His word, directed to Mary, a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers and do not speak of a 'Trinity[/b]' - stop, that is better for you - God is only one God, He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to trust. (Qur'an 4:171, M. A. S. Abdel-Haleem translation)[/i][/quote]

You're free to believe what you want, but I see it as an error in viewing the nature of God, not a complete diversion from the God of Abraham. -Katie

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1771625' date='Feb 3 2009, 09:10 PM']You're free to believe what you want, but I see it as an error in viewing the nature of God, not a complete diversion from the God of Abraham. -Katie[/quote]
Katie,

Let me be blunt: to reject the Holy Trinity is to reject the God of Abraham. Anyone who makes a distinction of the type you are asserting has been condemned in the document [i]De Synodis[/i] (St. Athanasios) and by the [i]Hagioretic Tome[/i].

[Hassan]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1771227' date='Feb 3 2009, 03:42 PM']That is not what the catechism actually says.

841:The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.

The exact word is important: the catechism uses the word term "profess". Muslims profess they hold the faith of Abraham, but we know that their definition of God is not the God of the Jews or Christians, and is NOT a merciful God. He does NOT create evil.[/quote]
Actually it is a conjunction ("and") offering two propositions
1-That Muslims profess to hold the faith of Abraham
2-together with "us" adore that God

The God of Islam is not mercyful? The Qur'an and all Muslims I know of think so. Besides the numerous statments of this within the text (oft forgiving), every Surah with the exception of (I think) 8 or 9 beings "In the name of Allah, the most gracious, the most mercyful"

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1771627' date='Feb 3 2009, 09:12 PM']Actually it is a conjunction ("and") offering two propositions
1-That Muslims profess to hold the faith of Abraham
2-together with "us" adore that God

The God of Islam is not mercyful? The Qur'an and all Muslims I know of think so. Besides the numerous statments of this within the text (oft forgiving), every Surah with the exception of (I think) 8 or 9 beings "In the name of Allah, the most gracious, the most mercyful"[/quote]
Even if the bishops of Vatican II asserted that Muslims worship the true God, by definition such a statement falls outside of their competence. Thus, it has no real value.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1771626' date='Feb 4 2009, 12:11 AM']Katie,

Let me be blunt: to reject the Holy Trinity is to reject the God of Abraham. Anyone who makes a distinction of the type you are asserting has been condemned in the document [i]De Synodis[/i] (St. Athanasios) and by the [i]Hagioretic Tome[/i].[/quote]


Are the Bishops and Pope behind Lumen Gentium condemned the same?

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1771628' date='Feb 4 2009, 12:14 AM']Even if the bishops of Vatican II asserted that Muslims worship the true God, by definition such a statement falls outside of their competence. Thus, it has no real value.[/quote]


If only the Bishops and Pope knew as much as you?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1771629' date='Feb 3 2009, 09:14 PM']Are the Bishops and Pope behind Lumen Gentium condemned the same?[/quote]
If they intended their comments to be taken "dogmatically" then, yes, they would be condemned, for they would have fallen into heresy, but Vatican II decreed no new dogmas.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1771625' date='Feb 4 2009, 12:10 AM']You're free to believe what you want, but I see it as an error in viewing the nature of God, not a complete diversion from the God of Abraham. -Katie[/quote]

Okey dokey, but as a matter of fact one can not worship the True God if they do not worship Jesus Christ.