Sspx: Jews Are 'our Elder Brothers

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1771631' date='Feb 3 2009, 09:15 PM']If only the Bishops and Pope knew as much as you?[/quote]
I am sure that they were all quite bright, but it would have been nice if they had avoided making politically correct and vacuous comments that happen to contradict earlier conciliar decrees of the Church during the first millennium.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1771594' date='Feb 3 2009, 11:47 PM']I thought the OT was part of Muslim tradition, as I thought the beginning of Islam was Mohammed's Mission to "reform" Christians and Jews. -Katie[/quote]


That is a complicated question.

[Apotheoun]

Can the Pope or an ecumenical council dogmatically define who Muslims worship?

No, because that topic is not a part of divine revelation.

[Apotheoun]

Can the Pope decree that the Hindu triad of gods (Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva) is the Holy Trinity revealed in sacred scripture?

No, because who Hindus worship is not a divinely revealed truth of Christian faith. No Christian would ever be bound by such a decree (if a pope were imprudent enough to issue such a thing), and in fact a Christian would be duty bound to dissent from a false teaching of that kind.

Edited February 4, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

To be honest I expect theological indifferentism from Hassan, because he is not a Catholic, but I am rather disappointed when I see it in someone who claims to be a follower of Christ.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1771616' date='Feb 3 2009, 11:02 PM']Nope. Mohammad occasionally -- and with many errors -- makes allusions to the Old and New Testaments, but it is clear that he was not really familiar with those texts. The Quran is a spurious book filled with theological error.[/quote]

I like how conveniently one can replace "Mohammad" with "Joseph Smith" and "Quran" with "Book of Mormon" and the sentence keeps its meaning. Sorry for the aside...back to the Jews as our Elder Brothers...

[Hassan]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1771718' date='Feb 4 2009, 01:31 AM']I like how conveniently one can replace "Mohammad" with "Joseph Smith" and "Quran" with "Book of Mormon" and the sentence keeps its meaning. Sorry for the aside...back to the Jews as our Elder Brothers...[/quote]


You could do something simmilar with "Bible" and "scientific and historical errors and fabrications"

just a thought

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1771648' date='Feb 4 2009, 12:25 AM']To be honest I expect theological indifferentism from Hassan, because he is not a Catholic, but I am rather disappointed when I see it in someone who claims to be a follower of Christ.[/quote]

Well, I don't know if I'd be so hard on ol' Tink. It maybe hard to see it at times but she does seem to be really trying to work out what is actual Church teaching and what is not. Though she seems to be a little bit more hard headed on this issue of how one can not reject the divinity of Christ, and still truly believe in God. Does not mean somewhere deep down she knows it to be true, and will one day see it.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1771724' date='Feb 3 2009, 10:37 PM']Well, I don't know if I'd be so hard on ol' Tink.[/quote]
I am praying for her.

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1771724' date='Feb 3 2009, 10:37 PM']. . . Though she seems to be a little bit more hard headed on this issue of how one can not reject the divinity of Christ, and still truly believe in God. Does not mean somewhere deep down she knows it to be true, and will one day see it.[/quote]
Yes, I do not see how anyone can say that Muslims worship the true God since they explicitly reject the divinity of Christ and the dogma of the Holy Trinity.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1771729' date='Feb 4 2009, 12:43 AM']Yes, I do not see how anyone can say that Muslims worship the true God since they explicitly reject the divinity of Christ and the dogma of the Holy Trinity.[/quote]

I believe what she was trying to say was that Muslims may be unintentionally worshipping God the Father. The "unintentionally" would explain their skewed beliefs regarding God (someone mentioned something about God performing evil).

That is just how I took it.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1771802' date='Feb 4 2009, 07:03 AM']I believe what she was trying to say was that Muslims may be unintentionally worshipping God the Father. The "unintentionally" would explain their skewed beliefs regarding God (someone mentioned something about God performing evil).[/quote]
To explicitly reject the divinity of Christ and the dogma of the Holy Trinity is to worship something other than the true God. You cannot unintentionally worship that which you formally and explicitly reject.

[Roamin'Catholic]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1769246' date='Feb 2 2009, 01:01 AM']It doesn't approve of the Holocaust but it seems to blame the Jewish people for Christ's Death,[/quote]

You wrong. They say:
After correctly pointing out that the Jewish [i]authorities[/i] pressed for the death of Christ, and that neither all Jews at that time, nor today "can be charged with the crimes committed during his Passion,"

They don't blame the Jewish [i]people[/i]. Your flat wrong.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1771802' date='Feb 4 2009, 10:03 AM']I believe what she was trying to say was that Muslims may be unintentionally worshipping God the Father. The "unintentionally" would explain their skewed beliefs regarding God (someone mentioned something about God performing evil).

That is just how I took it.[/quote]

Yes, that is basically what I'm saying that I think. Apotheoun will no doubt disagree, but like I said, I don't wish to debate the issue of whether or not I'm [i]allowed[/i] to believe this with him anymore. -Katie

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1771724' date='Feb 4 2009, 01:37 AM']Well, I don't know if I'd be so hard on ol' Tink. It maybe hard to see it at times but she does seem to be really trying to work out what is actual Church teaching and what is not.[/quote]
Thanks But, if people want to be hard on me that's OK, I respect that. -Katie

[jkaands]

Wow! [i][b]That document[/b][/i] is on the SSPX website?! (I haven't visited the website).

[i]"The Catholic Church perceives the deep desire of the Jewish people to impose its material superiority and the guilt of Catholics who seek this people to get material gain. The enslaving of Christians and Christian nations began by the fault of Christians.

If Christians wish to remain free, let them avoid entanglements with the Jewish people. It dominates in every branch of commerce and finance, in philosophy and the universities. Its action is felt in the consequences of the French Revolution, in the socialization of socialist countries, and in the slavery of Communism. If the Gentile people wishes for a civilization based on economic greatness and the comfortable life, with everything set at the epitome of organization and technical development–then it can have it...."[/i]

This is [b][i]grossly [/i][/b]anti-Semitic. I can now understand why Israel/Jerusalem has taken diplomatic action against the Vatican and why the pope may not visit Israel next year.

[Aloysius]

to a certain extent Catholics ought to be opposed to both Protestant and Jewish economic systems which allow for usury which is absolutely poisonous to society. We probably would have a bit more in common with Muslim economic systems than we would with Protestant or Jewish ones if we were to really come to terms with the intellectual heritage that is the traditional social teachings of the Church up to and including encyclicals in the modern era such as Rerum Novarum (which, sadly, is today often read through a capitalist lens and the full scope of the point is missed)

the Protestant system of economics is what currently dominates the world economy (Capitalism). It includes many practices which have always been permitted by the Talmud but which have always been condemned by Catholicism.

this is not to say that these statements are at all acceptable, but there is a certain context by which one could understand an opposition to Jewish (and also Protestant) economic practices as part of the reason for the destruction of Christendom.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1771890' date='Feb 4 2009, 12:21 PM']to a certain extent Catholics ought to be opposed to both Protestant and Jewish economic systems which allow for usury which is absolutely poisonous to society. We probably would have a bit more in common with Muslim economic systems than we would with Protestant or Jewish ones if we were to really come to terms with the intellectual heritage that is the traditional social teachings of the Church up to and including encyclicals in the modern era such as Rerum Novarum (which, sadly, is today often read through a capitalist lens and the full scope of the point is missed)

the Protestant system of economics is what currently dominates the world economy (Capitalism). It includes many practices which have always been permitted by the Talmud but which have always been condemned by Catholicism.

this is not to say that these statements are at all acceptable, but there is a certain context by which one could understand an opposition to Jewish (and also Protestant) economic practices as part of the reason for the destruction of Christendom.[/quote]

I understand what you're saying, Aloysius-I think though, if they wanted to make the point that Catholics should be opposed to certain economic systems, they wouldn't have said anything about "The Jewish people" (gross overgeneralization) and their economic impositions, etc. Edit: I also think a condemnation of Capitalism would've been more relevant as it is a much more prominent issue. Also, the term "Jewish" does fail to distinguish between followers of Judaism and people who are of Jewish ethnicity, so I think they need to be a lot more careful in their wording.-Katie

Edited February 4, 2009 by Tinkerlina

[Aloysius]

I agree, which is why I say that their statements are still unacceptable. But I do think that the context I was talking about is a large part (though not the whole part, there is obviously some erroneous motives as well) of their motives in making such statements. what it is is a reaction against the collapse of Christendom. Christendom collapsed because competing economic principals and competing economic moralities pretty much tore it down from the inside and out. The argument about having no economic dealings "with the Jews" is a wrong way to word something which is rooted in a lamentation about how Christendom collapsed by having economic dealings with those whose economic moral principals were at odds with Catholicism.

again, not condoning, just providing a context which explains their motives in part but not in whole.

[Tinkerlina]

Yeah, I see what you're saying and I know you aren't/weren't condoning what they said. -Katie

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1771932' date='Feb 4 2009, 01:17 PM']I agree, which is why I say that their statements are still unacceptable. But I do think that the context I was talking about is a large part (though not the whole part, there is obviously some erroneous motives as well) of their motives in making such statements. what it is is a reaction against the collapse of Christendom. Christendom collapsed because competing economic principals and competing economic moralities pretty much tore it down from the inside and out. The argument about having no economic dealings "with the Jews" is a wrong way to word something which is rooted in a lamentation about how Christendom collapsed by having economic dealings with those whose economic moral principals were at odds with Catholicism.

again, not condoning, just providing a context which explains their motives in part but not in whole.[/quote]

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='jkaands' post='1771882' date='Feb 4 2009, 11:10 AM']Wow! [i][b]That document[/b][/i] is on the SSPX website?! (I haven't visited the website).

[i]"The Catholic Church perceives the deep desire of the Jewish people to impose its material superiority and the guilt of Catholics who seek this people to get material gain. The enslaving of Christians and Christian nations began by the fault of Christians.

If Christians wish to remain free, let them avoid entanglements with the Jewish people. It dominates in every branch of commerce and finance, in philosophy and the universities. Its action is felt in the consequences of the French Revolution, in the socialization of socialist countries, and in the slavery of Communism. If the Gentile people wishes for a civilization based on economic greatness and the comfortable life, with everything set at the epitome of organization and technical development–then it can have it...."[/i]

This is [b][i]grossly [/i][/b]anti-Semitic. I can now understand why Israel/Jerusalem has taken diplomatic action against the Vatican and why the pope may not visit Israel next year.[/quote]

Yeah, I totally posted this earlier. (Unless I posted it in the other SSPX thread.)