Somali Muslims Changing Small Town

[Lilllabettt]

[quote]"They would go into stores and haggle over prices. They would also demand to see a male salesperson, would not deal with women in stores... some Somali students won't talk to female administrators... "[/quote]


Ummmmm this pretty much describes my grandpa. I myself haggle over prices. And I prefer male doctors. (that is my preference, call me a sexist if you want.)

I don't think these Somalis thought about whether their new homes would have such a different culture. My guess is they were too desperate to care. Stay in Somalia and die or come to America and live. These small town folks don't seem too welcoming, but at least they don't have machetes.

My guess is the Somalis in this small town didn't have a clue about how to "act American." The only thing they knew was the Somali way. So they come to America and instead of people having compassion on their ignorance, they get bad mouthed in the newspaper.

This whole article smacks of childish playground antics. We don't like the new kid, he's different.

"They've had an impact here. Unfortunately, it's not been a good impact," says Brian Moseley, small fry journalist. EXCUSE me? That's a little broad of a brush, don't you think?

Imagine you've lost everything. Your home, your job, your ability to protect yourself and your children. You are totally dependent on the benevolent whim of strangers to get you through the day. All material representations of your identity have been stripped away. Would you perhaps, desire to cling to whatever remained? Like say, your culture?

These people have suffered a lot in their lives ... Jesus is present in them ... they are the most vulnerable, the people we are supposed to care for the most ... How about some patience for them? Understanding? The benefit of the doubt?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' post='1818628' date='Mar 28 2009, 02:07 PM']Ummmmm this pretty much describes my grandpa. I myself haggle over prices. And I prefer male doctors. (that is my preference, call me a sexist if you want.)

I don't think these Somalis thought about whether their new homes would have such a different culture. My guess is they were too desperate to care. Stay in Somalia and die or come to America and live. These small town folks don't seem too welcoming, but at least they don't have machetes.

My guess is the Somalis in this small town didn't have a clue about how to "act American." The only thing they knew was the Somali way. So they come to America and instead of people having compassion on their ignorance, they get bad mouthed in the newspaper.

This whole article smacks of childish playground antics. We don't like the new kid, he's different.

"They've had an impact here. Unfortunately, it's not been a good impact," says Brian Moseley, small fry journalist. EXCUSE me? That's a little broad of a brush, don't you think?

Imagine you've lost everything. Your home, your job, your ability to protect yourself and your children. You are totally dependent on the benevolent whim of strangers to get you through the day. All material representations of your identity have been stripped away. Would you perhaps, desire to cling to whatever remained? Like say, your culture?

These people have suffered a lot in their lives ... Jesus is present in them ... they are the most vulnerable, the people we are supposed to care for the most ... How about some patience for them? Understanding? The benefit of the doubt?[/quote]
OR how about a little education on their new country and the concept of melting pot.

[desertwoman]

Shelbyville? Reminds me of the Simpsons.

But since they are isolating themselves, they can be another community just like the Amish. No one will bother them, and vice versa.

The haggling of prices is also a cultural thing, the only thing they have to do is say take the price or leave. If you cause a scene, you will be dealt with...period. Be firm, shoot...be black and say no... get the hell out of my store... and you better step to the door before I take out my .44. They would leave then.

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1818631' date='Mar 28 2009, 02:16 PM']OR how about a little education on their new country and the concept of melting pot.[/quote]


That would be helpful, and really nice if someone would set up a program to do that. The article says they undergo "a few days of culture orientation" before they're shipped over here. Is that really enough? I know if you threw me into a predominantly non-Christian country, where I didn't know the language, I would need more than that before I figured out how to "play nice."

[Hassan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1818608' date='Mar 28 2009, 10:50 AM']Not interested. If Hassan or anyone else wants to rail against the Jews, start a new thread.[/quote]


I'm not railing against the Jews. Now were my remarks only confined to the Jewish people, I included Catholics as well. My point was how flawed your and Rober Spencer's methodology is. Catholicism and Judaism are familiar faiths to you. Yet what if they wern't and the only information you received about them came from an individual using the same sloppy, haphazard methodology that you and Mr. Spencer like to use.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1818613' date='Mar 28 2009, 11:09 AM']After reading this article, it is safe to say that these Somali people do not WANT to fit in.[/quote]


Well sure. I mean a page long article in a paper is always the best way to get an accurate picture of the desires and motivations of an entire community.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1818563' date='Mar 28 2009, 06:18 AM']Why are you ranting about the Jews in a thread on Somali refugees in America?[/quote]


Try rereading the post. I am not ranting about "the Jews". I am not ranting at all in fact.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1818662' date='Mar 28 2009, 01:41 PM']I'm not railing against the Jews. Now were my remarks only confined to the Jewish people, I included Catholics as well. My point was how flawed your and Rober Spencer's methodology is. Catholicism and Judaism are familiar faiths to you. Yet what if they wern't and the only information you received about them came from an individual using the same sloppy, haphazard methodology that you and Mr. Spencer like to use.[/quote]


News articles really upset you, don't they?

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' post='1818637' date='Mar 28 2009, 12:25 PM']That would be helpful, and really nice if someone would set up a program to do that. The article says they undergo "a few days of culture orientation" before they're shipped over here. Is that really enough? I know if you threw me into a predominantly non-Christian country, where I didn't know the language, I would need more than that before I figured out how to "play nice."[/quote]


Yet, according to the article (and other reports of similar incidents in small towns where there are Somali Muslim populations) this is not an issue of religion. Religion is barely mentioned except to state that these Somalis are Muslim. It is an issue of refusal to respect the culture into which they have been planted. And my goodness, let us not forget that America did them a FAVOR of enormous generosity to remove them from their impoverished, wartorn, backwards country and bring them here in the first place. No gratitude for that. Only signs that they detest it here. I wonder how many people would tolerate in guest in their HOME who behaved this way. No sane person would tolerate it. They would ask their guest to change their behavior or leave.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1818619' date='Mar 28 2009, 11:40 AM']Immigration is a two -way street.[/quote]


Actually, the Somalis are not immigrants. They are refugees. That means they didn't choose to come here; our government generously gave them the opportunity to be brought here to remove them from the war and poverty they were living in. Unlike immigrants, they didn't have to wait years for a Visa to come through and years to save money to make it over here. They were brought here with no cost to them. It costs an enormous amount of resources to bring refugees over here. I am all for bringing refugees, but the fact alone that they have given this display of generosity would seem to give them more reason to act grateful. America has taken many refugees and I have never heard stories like this about other groups. I don't hear about it in the Iraqi refugee community and you never heard such stories from the Cambodian refugees we brought over in the 1970s. The Ethiopians also never behaved this way.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1818613' date='Mar 28 2009, 11:09 AM']After reading this article, it is safe to say that these Somali people do not WANT to fit in.[/quote]


That's the long and short of it.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1818699' date='Mar 28 2009, 02:15 PM']News articles really upset you, don't they?[/quote]


Lol, Madam V I am not upset. I don't care about you or your little internet jihad. I mean what people like you are doing is disturbing and concerns me but that's in the distance. I feel somewhat sorry for you but there is only so much I can do, your obviously a much older highly educated woman so live in whatever world you choose . I do hope to prevent individuals from falling for Mr Spencer's tricks.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1818604' date='Mar 28 2009, 10:29 AM']I think he was merely pointing out that culture clash is not a specifically Islamic phenomenon.[/quote]


Not exactly, but thank you for trying to understand

I actually had a few points but I feel like I mashed to many all together.

I think someone mentioned the Amish. What if we tried to explain the Amish phenomena by Robert Spencer's methodology?

"Well! Isolation is a perfectly natural Christian habit, as we see in their Bible!"

[i]2 Corinthians 6:14
Do not be yoked with those who are different, with unbelievers. For what partnership do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what fellowship does light have with darkness? 15 What accord has Christ with Beliar? Or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said: "I will live with them and move among them, 12 and I will be their God and they shall be my people. 17 Therefore, come forth from them and be separate," says the Lord, "and touch nothing unclean; then I will receive you 18 and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty."[/i]

Would this be an adequate explanation of the Amish Phenomena? I mean the Amish may point to this verse to justify their lifestyle but can the totality of the Amish be explained by this verse? Can the Jim Crow South be explained by certian passages in the Christian Scripture? The Christian of the South sure felt like they had Biblical sanction. Could we point to a few isolated verses and then say we have explained the Jim Crow South? But this is exactly what Spencer and Madam do. Unfortunatly we live in a politial climate where this is accectable. It is wrong and deeply unscientific.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1818730' date='Mar 28 2009, 03:39 PM']Lol, Madam V I am not upset. I don't care about you or your little internet jihad. I mean what people like you are doing is disturbing and concerns me but that's in the distance. I feel somewhat sorry for you but there is only so much I can do, your obviously a much older highly educated woman so live in whatever world you choose . I do hope to prevent individuals from falling for Mr Spencer's tricks.[/quote]

What she is doing is posting news articles to discuss with the Phatmass community. There is nothing disturbing about that. And Robert Spencer has nothing to do with the article, Madame V just quoted him in the beginning because his experiences with certain Somalis clearly parallel the certain Somalis discussed in this article by a man named Brian Moseley. So your problem is not with Robert Spencer right now, it is either with Brian Moseley or Erick Stakelbeck, the CBN News Terrorism Analyst who wrote the actual article being discussed in this thread.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1818760' date='Mar 28 2009, 03:19 PM']What she is doing is posting news articles to discuss with the Phatmass community. There is nothing disturbing about that. And Robert Spencer has nothing to do with the article, Madame V just quoted him in the beginning because his experiences with certain Somalis clearly parallel the certain Somalis discussed in this article by a man named Brian Moseley. So your problem is not with Robert Spencer right now, it is either with Brian Moseley or Erick Stakelbeck, the CBN News Terrorism Analyst who wrote the actual article being discussed in this thread.[/quote]


I'll discuss the many, many flaws in Madam and Spencer's methodology. But I'm not going into another meta argument thanks.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1818766' date='Mar 28 2009, 04:27 PM']I'll discuss the many, many flaws in Madam and Spencer's methodology. But I'm not going into another meta argument thanks.[/quote]

You clearly ignored what I just wrote. This thread is not about Spencer or Madame V. The news article is not about Robert Spencer. It was not written by him, either. Therefore if you want to complain, you should be complaining about the actual author of the article.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1818613' date='Mar 28 2009, 01:09 PM']After reading this article, it is safe to say that these Somali people do not WANT to fit in.[/quote]


Also from the article:

[quote]Abdirizak Hassan is the director of the Somali Community Center in nearby Nashville. He says the state of Tennessee has no programs to help immigrants integrate into their new surroundings.

"They come, and the only thing they can do is go to work, and then after work they go back to the apartment," Hassan said. "They're totally isolated and there's no interaction between them and the locals."

He added that some have even expressed a desire to return to Somalia.

"A lot of them face eviction. They put them in an apartment complex that costs $600 a month. They can't get a job that gives them that much money," Hassan explained.

"And sometimes you have families, like, a single mother with eight kids, or seven kids or six kids, and you expect her to go to work in six months time with no English, no driver's skills, nothing? I mean, sometimes it's impossible."

"The locals, mostly, when they see a few hundred people in their backyard with a different look, strangers, you know, of course they have the right to be concerned," he added. "But I think if the local authorities and organizations like ours do a lot of outreach, I think we can bridge the gap."[/quote]

On the contrary, the normal human condition IS to want to fit in. I doubt these Somalis are consciously setting out to offend their neighbors, that they wake up every morning and strap on their boots saying "ok everybody let's go out and be jerks today!"

It is easy for people to criticize newcomers- I am sure most locals in Shelbyville consciously or unconsciously perceive the Somalis as a threat to their comfortable status quo. The hard thing to do is to actually reach out to them and bring them into the community circle. Too often we sit on our laurels and when the new people don't come to US we say they are "isolating themselves from the community." Really it is OUR job to reach out to THEM.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1818770' date='Mar 28 2009, 04:31 PM']You clearly ignored what I just wrote. This thread is not about Spencer or Madame V. The news article is not about Robert Spencer. It was not written by him, either. Therefore if you want to complain, you should be complaining about the actual author of the article.[/quote]


It is about spencer. She simply quoted from JihadWatch.

[i]Somalis in America are "very, very rude, inconsiderate, very demanding"
"They would go into stores and haggle over prices. They would also demand to see a male salesperson, would not deal with women in stores... some Somali students won't talk to female administrators... Somalis have isolated themselves from the rest of the community." All perfectly normal Islamic behavior, typified by contempt for infidels and women. As for "isolating themselves from the rest of the community," that has to do with Koranic verses such as 3:28: "Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them."

"Somali Muslims Changing Small Town," by Erick Stakelbeck for CBN, March 26:

CBNNews.com - SHELBYVILLE, Tenn. - It has been nearly 20 years since Somalia last had a functioning government. Islamic jihadists now control most of the country-and sharia is the law of the land. Tens of thousands of Somali refugees have resettled in America in recent years to escape the chaos of their homeland, which is located in the Horn of Africa.

But the transition isn't going smoothly in one small town.[...]

At first glance, Shelbyville is your typical sleepy southern hamlet. It's nestled in middle Tennessee, where the walking horse is king.

There's Main St., the local sheriff, a movie theatre. It's all very "Mayberry," except for one big difference: the recent arrival of hundreds of Somali Muslims.

Small Town Having Difficulties

Shelbyville is about an hour's drive from Nashville, in the heart of the Bible Belt. Like many Americans, the citizens of Shelbyville knew little about Somalia other than the 1993 Black Hawk Down incident, in which 18 U.S. servicemen were killed while battling warlords and Islamic jihadists in the Somali capital of Mogadishu.

So when hundreds of Somalis began turning up in the town--many of them dressed in traditional Islamic garb--locals quickly took notice.

"They've had an impact here. Unfortunately, it's not been a good impact," said Brian Mosely, a reporter for the local Shelbyville Times-Gazette.

Mosely won an award from the Associated Press for a series of articles he wrote for the paper about Shelbyville's Somalis.

"I found that there was just an enormous culture clash going on here," he said. "The Somalis were--according to a lot of the people I talked to here--were being very, very rude, inconsiderate, very demanding. They would go into stores and haggle over prices. They would also demand to see a male salesperson, would not deal with women in stores"

Different People, Different Culture

"Their culture is totally alien to anything the residents are used to," Mosely added.

The problems extend to local schools--where some Somali students won't talk to female administrators. There have also been issues with local law enforcement.

"I'm not really sure whether that is because of experiences with the police in their country, or whether that's just the way their culture is," said Shelbyville's Police Chief, Austin Swing.

Shelbyville is home to about 17,000 people. The town's Somali population is estimated to be between 400 and 1,000.

Mosely says the Somalis have isolated themselves from the rest of the community...


Posted at March 27, 2009 7:05 AM [/i]

She continually quotes Spencer and things from his site. That is what I am criticising.

I don't have a problem with you, I feel sorry for Madam V and hate what she's doing but I don't have a problem with her personally either. I'm not going down that path of this turning into another squabble between us so this is that last time I'm engaging in this fascet of the argument.

[HisChildForever]

[quote]"The locals, mostly, when they see a few hundred people in their backyard with a different look, strangers, you know, of course they have the right to be concerned," he added. "But I think if the local authorities and organizations like ours do a lot of outreach, I think we can bridge the gap."[/quote]

There are clearly [b]two[/b] perceptions - what the locals are saying and what the director of the Somali Community Center is saying. It seems to me that the director is discrediting the locals' opinions, and trying to do so in a "pleasant" way. He is basically saying that the locals are automatically wary of "strangers" or people with "a different look" - so naturally they must be unconsciously exaggerating their experiences, right? If this was an isolated incident I would definitely say that we have to remember that their are two sides, but as other posters in this thread have stated, this is not an isolated incident.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1818784' date='Mar 28 2009, 03:41 PM']Also from the article:



On the contrary, the normal human condition IS to want to fit in. I doubt these Somalis are consciously setting out to offend their neighbors, that they wake up every morning and strap on their boots saying "ok everybody let's go out and be jerks today!"

It is easy for people to criticize newcomers- I am sure most locals in Shelbyville consciously or unconsciously perceive the Somalis as a threat to their comfortable status quo. The hard thing to do is to actually reach out to them and bring them into the community circle. Too often we sit on our laurels and when the new people don't come to US we say they are "isolating themselves from the community." Really it is OUR job to reach out to THEM.[/quote]


exactly