Did Jesus Want An Organize Religion

[dUSt]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848636' date='Apr 26 2009, 02:09 AM']So, yes, I am not against organized religion, as long as it isn't all about fear, but exploring who Jesus Christ is, and living out our unique destinies to learn what it means to be who we are in him!

Debate over.[/quote]
I agree.

For me, it's like, if I wanted to know everything there was to know about transportation, would I go to a school who only teaches me about air and space travel--or would I choose a school who teaches me about everything from when the first wheel was invented all the way up to supersonic high atmosphere jets?

My point is, to know Christ, we should learn about Him from the institution who has taught about Him since He established His church--and not just the things that are recent inventions, or what is popular in the newest best selling book about Him. There are so many religions today that are re-inventing the wheel, and there's no need for that. Like it or not, the popular Jesus you may know today has been viewed through a cloudy lense of modern society. I have chosen to follow Jesus through the eyes of His church, and not my own--because the world knows I need some thick glasses.

It all comes down to conforming yourself to Christ, and not conforming Christ to yourself.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848636' date='Apr 25 2009, 11:09 PM']Debate over.

BTW, I specifically asked the person who started this thread not to, because I don't like this kind of debate, because it always ends up being one person saying, my religion is doctrinally superior to all others, so you better do what I say.

I don't want to tear anybody apart for their beliefs, and I am here to share what God has blessed me with than to say, 'I am right and you are wrong', and engage in this kind of debate. And, I don't need guilt trips in my life, and I would rather use my brain to think about my next animation and next story to tell, then thinking about people's opinions about my religious choices that I have made because I would rather explore the life Jesus wants for me, to learn of his sufferings and his grace![/quote]

I don't recommend posting in the debate table then. It is the place for debating on this forum.

No one is trying to guilt trip anyone and what we are doing here is using our brains to critically think about how various teachings and beliefs can be in line with the rationality of man. Reason ([i]ratio[/i]) was given as a gift by God to man, and it is through reason that we are able to discover truths. Since Jesus Christ is the Truth (way, truth, and life), reason is one of the ways in which we can seek God. The nature of reason is to ask questions and seek answers and by doing so discover the truth. This includes questioning religious choices that various peoples have made.

[Kurall_Creator]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1848631' date='Apr 26 2009, 01:02 AM']My question would be, if it is the Holy Spirit that leads and directs people and the Holy Spirit alone (or any of the other persons of the trinity), then who is right when one person claims the Holy Spirit lead him to one thing, and another claims it lead him to another. What about when you have 30,000 people all claiming the Holy Spirit lead them to what they believe but all of their beliefs are very different. The same goes for interpretations of the texts of Scripture.

To say "Well I believe what I believe and you believe what you believe" is relativism and it denies that one of the two people (or 30,000) is wrong. The Holy Spirit cannot lead people to truths that contradict each other.[/quote]

I don't think of the holy spirit leading us into the 'rules' of a religion, per se. I believe in it's guidance in daily life, and to know what is truth and what is a lie, and to recognize the spiritual state of things.

So, there are probably quiet a few confused, falliable human beings, and we are trying to grasp at truth, be we forget, Only Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, so we forget, the only Truth is Christ, and the life he lived.

On the state of lots of different religions out there, well, that's always been the case for Christianity, because one of the Devil's greatest tactics is to cause disunity. It smells of elderberries, and one day there will be a real unification of all believers, which will happen when Jesus comes back!

Remember, the entire world will know we are God's children through our unity and love for one another. The best way to attack that is to cause disunity. So, we children of God will have to put up with the disunity while we are on the Earth, trusting in the day it will no longer be the case.

Thank you for your respectful questions, BTW.

This is the kind of dialogue I enjoy.

BTW, there is this argument about doctrines about things. I would like to know if All Catholics 100 per cent totally agree with all Doctrines of the Catholic Religion. If members of your own religion can't agree with each other on everything, well, it's not a great argument about differences in denominations in the protestant world. . .

Edited April 26, 2009 by Kurall_Creator

[Kurall_Creator]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1848639' date='Apr 26 2009, 01:24 AM']I agree.

For me, it's like, if I wanted to know everything there was to know about transportation, would I go to a school who only teaches me about air and space travel--or would I choose a school who teaches me about everything from when the first wheel was invented all the way up to supersonic high atmosphere jets?

My point is, to know Christ, we should learn about Him from the institution who has taught about Him since He established His church--and not just the things that are recent inventions, or what is popular in the newest best selling book about Him. There are so many religions today that are re-inventing the wheel, and there's no need for that. Like it or not, the popular Jesus you may know today has been viewed through a cloudy lense of modern society. I have chosen to follow Jesus through the eyes of His church, and not my own--because the world knows I need some thick glasses.

It all comes down to conforming yourself to Christ, and not conforming Christ to yourself.[/quote]


That's cool.

Trust me when I say this, I've made my sacrifices in my walk with God too, and I will keep them quiet because Scripture tells us to keep or sacrifices secret, but trust me when I say, I have conformed myself to Jesus, and it isn't the other way around.

If someone told me what my ministry was 10 years ago, I would have ran from it as fast as I could.

My ministry doesn't come from doctrines, or the wisdom of men, but is mighty through the Spirit to the pulling down of strongholds.

That is why I am not big on doctrines. I wish I could help all of Christidom from stopping this tearing down of each other, and to focus on real enemies, like Atheists and occultists.

Did you know that all modern day pedophiles are probably followers of Alister Crowley, a man who wrote occult magick books that detailed sexual acts with children to gain influence with Satan. . .

Are the ministers in both Protestant and Catholic religions who are guilty of those things really Christ followers, or followers of Satan?

Now, with me bringing that up, don't we share the same intense desire to destroy the occult world for just that teaching? Doesn't that make us brothers in arms in something that is truly important?

Who cares how each other relates to God. If we can hate the occult world for bringing that teaching, than that's all we need!

[Slappo]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848641' date='Apr 25 2009, 11:27 PM']BTW, there is this argument about doctrines about things. I would like to know if All Catholics 100 per cent totally agree with all Doctrines of the Catholic Religion. If members of your own religion can't agree with each other on everything, well, it's not a great argument about differences in denominations in the protestant world. . .[/quote]

Yes, there are Catholics who disagree with what the Church teaches in matters of doctrine. However, we refer to them as heretics and I believe that it is grounds for an excommunication.

This is done for the purpose of showing them that the error that they are in is grave. It can be considered loving discipline in a sense, like a father grounding his child. We only hope the child is out of time out before his life is over.

[Kurall_Creator]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1848648' date='Apr 26 2009, 01:42 AM']Yes, there are Catholics who disagree with what the Church teaches in matters of doctrine. However, we refer to them as heretics and I believe that it is grounds for an excommunication.

This is done for the purpose of showing them that the error that they are in is grave. It can be considered loving discipline in a sense, like a father grounding his child. We only hope the child is out of time out before his life is over.[/quote]

But what about a Nuiance of doctrine. They still hold on to the same doctrine, but they change it to make more sense to them, something like pride, and said, even being proud you get an A in school is wrong, and you shouldn't boast about that, ect, ect, ect - taking it to an extreme.

Are they heretics?

[Slappo]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848647' date='Apr 25 2009, 11:41 PM']Who cares how each other relates to God. If we can hate the occult world for bringing that teaching, than that's all we need![/quote]

That is theological relativism. That is why we care.

If someone believes in something that is a lie, it is our duty to instruct them in the truth. It is considered one of the corporal works of mercy in the Catholic Church to instruct the ignorant.

I would argue also that sins like pedophilia, even the modern cases, go back much farther then the author whom you stated. A sin of pedophilia is a sin of lust, power, and pride. These are the same sins that Adam committed. A sin of lust of the eyes (seeing that the fruit was good and then desiring it even though it was wrong), power (will be like God), and pride (forget exactly how this relates, but I think it had to do with thinking he didn't need God since he could be like God).

Pedophilia can also stem from other sins such as pornography and masturbation. Some Christians deny these acts to be sinful and for me to not correct them could cause them to commit further sins of lust and even pedophilia.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848650' date='Apr 25 2009, 11:48 PM']But what about a Nuiance of doctrine. They still hold on to the same doctrine, but they change it to make more sense to them, something like pride, and said, even being proud you get an A in school is wrong, and you shouldn't boast about that, ect, ect, ect - taking it to an extreme.

Are they heretics?[/quote]

Well for example... some of the christological heresies are taking the doctrines of Christ and taking them to the extreme. Christ is God. Christ is omnipotent. Christ is sinless. They take these doctrines to the extreme and then deny that Christ is human. So yes they are heretics, but it has to be on a matter of doctrine. I don't know if the example of pride would be to the point of heresy since there is no doctrinal definition (that I know of) defining pride. However, we would still say they are in error and correct them because that is not what the Catholic Church teaches on pride.

They would be what is called scrupulous.

[Kurall_Creator]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1848651' date='Apr 26 2009, 02:48 AM']That is theological relativism. That is why we care.

If someone believes in something that is a lie, it is our duty to instruct them in the truth. It is considered one of the corporal works of mercy in the Catholic Church to instruct the ignorant.

I would argue also that sins like pedophilia, even the modern cases, go back much farther then the author whom you stated. A sin of pedophilia is a sin of lust, power, and pride. These are the same sins that Adam committed. A sin of lust of the eyes (seeing that the fruit was good and then desiring it even though it was wrong), power (will be like God), and pride (forget exactly how this relates, but I think it had to do with thinking he didn't need God since he could be like God).

Pedophilia can also stem from other sins such as pornography and masturbation. Some Christians deny these acts to be sinful and for me to not correct them could cause them to commit further sins of lust and even pedophilia.[/quote]

I agree on the root goes way before that, but to ignore the fact the occult world almost worships Alister Crowley for his 'contributions' to their world, and there the Pagan and occult religions are some of the fastest growing religions today, we can see the rise of child abuse, both physical, sexual, and emotional is coming from his teachings.

On your thoughts, you are guided by the spirit to see what the true cause is, so I am really enjoying talking to you about this.

I think you were looking for this scripture to talk about Sin, when we're talking about Pedophilia.

# 1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Yes, what Satan promised satisfied the lust of the flesh, and it did look good to them, and they thought they would be like God, the pride of life!

So, even though you didn't know the exact scripture (BTW, I cheat this way, I usually go to a Bible search website to look for the exact wording), but still we think of the same scriptures in the same way. Remarkable, isn't it. How do we, two different people, with two different ways to relate to God, come to the same scripture, and think the same thing as each other?

How is that possible? Wouldn't you agree that the spirit was working inside both of us, revealing the truth to both of us?

On the Masturbation and Pornography stuff, I hear you. It saddens me that we have degraded ourselves to that degree. The occult world, and its increasing prominence in our world is also causing this outbreak, as they are the biggest users of sexual relations to invoke magick in the world, so they continually promote sex, to increase their ranks. And in today's society, many men and women are seduced into that world because of sex!

Edited April 26, 2009 by Kurall_Creator

[Slappo]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848654' date='Apr 25 2009, 10:57 PM']I think you were looking for this scripture to talk about Sin, when we're talking about Pedophilia.

# 1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Yes, what Satan promised satisfied the lust of the flesh, and it did look good to them, and they thought they would be like God, the pride of life!

So, even though you didn't know the exact scripture (BTW, I cheat this way, I usually go to a Bible search website to look for the exact wording), but still we think of the same scriptures in the same way. Remarkable, isn't it. How do we, two different people, with two different ways to relate to God, come to the same scripture, and think the same thing as each other?

How is that possible? Wouldn't you agree that the spirit was working inside both of us, revealing the truth to both of us?[/quote]

I was actually referring not to a particular scripture passage, but to in depth Catholic theology on the nature of sin based on the fall of Adam and the redemption Christ went through. Look at the three temptations Christ went through in the desert by satan: each temptation redeems one of the falls of Adam (pride, lust, and power). He is tempted by food (lust of the flesh), pride (testing God), and power (the kingdoms of the world).

In the passage you quoted, the desire for power is not mentioned. Lust of the eyes is an aspect of lust of the flesh so the two go hand in hand.

So really, we weren't coming to the same scripture.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848647' date='Apr 26 2009, 02:41 AM']My ministry doesn't come from doctrines, or the wisdom of men, but is mighty through the Spirit to the pulling down of strongholds.[/quote]
I don't understand how you know this. Why do you use the name "Jesus" instead of "Allah"? I understand your aversion to what you perceive to be man-made doctrines, but do you not think that the only reason you know about Jesus today is because of men passing down His teachings from generation to generation?

I guess I'm having a hard time understanding how you can know about Jesus through nothing else but the Holy Spirit?

[quote]That is why I am not big on doctrines. I wish I could help all of Christidom from stopping this tearing down of each other, and to focus on real enemies, like Atheists and occultists.[/quote]
What makes them evil and us good? Doctrines. But your not big on doctrines--so, why so against Athiests and occultists?

[Kurall_Creator]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1848652' date='Apr 26 2009, 01:52 AM']Well for example... some of the christological heresies are taking the doctrines of Christ and taking them to the extreme. Christ is God. Christ is omnipotent. Christ is sinless. They take these doctrines to the extreme and then deny that Christ is human. So yes they are heretics, but it has to be on a matter of doctrine. I don't know if the example of pride would be to the point of heresy since there is no doctrinal definition (that I know of) defining pride. However, we would still say they are in error and correct them because that is not what the Catholic Church teaches on pride.

They would be what is called scrupulous.[/quote]

But what about someone who agrees to the divinity as you believe it, who chooses to follow Christ as you understand him, and has been baptized, and has repented of their sins, and wishes to learn all they can of Christ and his sufferings, and to conform their lives to Christ, so they can find their life in Christ?

You see, the only person who would seek such a life is one who already has the holy spirit.

If I asked any atheist if they would want to live their life like Jesus, most would laugh at me, and say, No - I don't believe in him, so why would I live my life like his!

If I asked a Jew, he would also say no.

If I asked a Muslim, he would probably say no as well.

Only a person with the holy spirit would want to live like Jesus lived, who would want to build up his fellow brothers and sisters, because he hears Jesus ask him, like he asked Peter, if you love me you will feed my sheep. I want to feed Jesus' sheep, as you want to feed Jesus' sheep. We both hear the call together, and we respond temparately to fulfill that call.

So, if you then asked, well do you recognize the primacy of the Pope, and someone says, well, no. I don't need a Pope to hear Jesus' call to feed his sheep, and to stand against the kingdom of darkness.

[Kurall_Creator]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1848662' date='Apr 26 2009, 02:06 AM']I don't understand how you know this. Why do you use the name "Jesus" instead of "Allah"? I understand your aversion to what you perceive to be man-made doctrines, but do you not think that the only reason you know about Jesus today is because of men passing down His teachings from generation to generation?[/quote]

Yes, there is a generation from generation building of the church, where believer passed their beliefs to others, as God intended. I am not against any source that would teach God's truth too others.

[quote name='dUSt' post='1848662' date='Apr 26 2009, 02:06 AM']I guess I'm having a hard time understanding how you can know about Jesus through nothing else but the Holy Spirit?[/quote]

I also have a Bible, which I know good men and women decided which books should go into them, and I read it. I recognize that there has to be some authority as to what makes good scripture and what doesn't.


[quote name='dUSt' post='1848662' date='Apr 26 2009, 02:06 AM']What makes them evil and us good? Doctrines. But your not big on doctrines--so, why so against Athiests and occultists?[/quote]

Because of the danger they bring to the human race. Even though they vehently deny this, they are endangering all life on this planet, by saying we are all pieces of sexual meat, and should treat each other like pieces of sexual meat, because that is what life is all about, we are all pieces of sexual meat.

That is degrading, not out of doctrine, but it turns me into nothing but a piece of meat, which I am not!

How many young women look at magazine covers of Maxim, Cosmo, and a variety of others and commit suicide because they starve themselves to death?

How many corporations treat their workers like pieces of meat, using chemicals that are extremely toxic, killing dozens, and endangering thousands, even millions of workers working in industry today, because they treat their workers like pieces of meat.

Honestly, if you need doctrine to tell you this is wrong, I am shocked. . .

You only have to look at the attitude and see what it produces to know what the Atheist and occult world is doing to us right now, and that they are the enemies of humanity and they need to be stopped!

[dUSt]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848666' date='Apr 26 2009, 03:11 AM']But what about someone who agrees to the divinity as you believe it, who chooses to follow Christ as you understand him, and has been baptized, and has repented of their sins, and wishes to learn all they can of Christ and his sufferings, and to conform their lives to Christ, so they can find their life in Christ?

You see, the only person who would seek such a life is one who already has the holy spirit.[/quote]
[b]That is me.[/b] You agree that I have the Holy Spirit! YES!!!

Now that we have established that you affirm that I am being guided by the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit tells me that without the Catholic Church, you may not make it into Heaven.

So, now, it appears that we have a conflict in Holy Spirit messages. Now what?

We can't reference the Bible because it's basically a bunch of doctrines, which you are opposed to... what a dilemma.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848666' date='Apr 25 2009, 11:11 PM']But what about someone who agrees to the divinity as you believe it, who chooses to follow Christ as you understand him, and has been baptized, and has repented of their sins, and wishes to learn all they can of Christ and his sufferings, and to conform their lives to Christ, so they can find their life in Christ?

You see, the only person who would seek such a life is one who already has the holy spirit.

If I asked any atheist if they would want to live their life like Jesus, most would laugh at me, and say, No - I don't believe in him, so why would I live my life like his!

If I asked a Jew, he would also say no.

If I asked a Muslim, he would probably say no as well.

Only a person with the holy spirit would want to live like Jesus lived, who would want to build up his fellow brothers and sisters, because he hears Jesus ask him, like he asked Peter, if you love me you will feed my sheep. I want to feed Jesus' sheep, as you want to feed Jesus' sheep. We both hear the call together, and we respond temparately to fulfill that call.[/quote]

We don't deny that they are Christians. They are still baptized even if they are heretics. We deny that they understand the fullness of truth. They are Christians, but they are in error as to the complete truth.

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848666' date='Apr 25 2009, 11:11 PM']So, if you then asked, well do you recognize the primacy of the Pope, and someone says, well, no. I don't need a Pope to hear Jesus' call to feed his sheep, and to stand against the kingdom of darkness.[/quote]

It isn't about what I need, it is about the way that Christ chose for things to be.
Christ gave to Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven (Mt. 16, keys is a reference to Is. 22:22). The keys are only given to a steward, and when the master of the house is away, it is the steward of the house that takes charge over the ruling of the house remaining obedient to his master.
The same thing goes to confessing sins to a priest. Christ breathed the Holy Spirit on to the Apostles giving them the power to forgive and to bind sins. How do they know which to bind and which to forgive unless it is confessed to them? Those sins that a man is not truly sorry for ("I'm sleeping with my girlfriend out of wedlock, but I'm not going to move out or stop") are not forgiven by the priest. The priest refuses absolution of sins (absolve, from latin ab-solvere, to loosen from) in such cases.

[dUSt]

[quote]I also have a Bible, which I know good men and women decided which books should go into them.[/quote]
How do you know that?

[Slappo]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1848671' date='Apr 25 2009, 11:21 PM']So, now, it appears that we have a conflict in Holy Spirit messages. Now what?[/quote]

Holy Spirit messages... haha... You'd better coin that terminology before some master theologian comes and steals it from you.

[Kurall_Creator]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1848671' date='Apr 26 2009, 03:21 AM'][b]That is me.[/b] You agree that I have the Holy Spirit! YES!!!

Now that we have established that you affirm that I am being guided by the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit tells me that without the Catholic Church, you may not make it into Heaven.

So, now, it appears that we have a conflict in Holy Spirit messages. Now what?

We can't reference the Bible because it's basically a bunch of doctrines, which you are opposed to... what a dilemma.[/quote]

Here's one that is going to send your for a flop thought. Even though I have the holy spirit, I know me, you, and everybody else can be in error, even though we have the spirit. Unless, you are saying you understand all truth, and all prophecies, and all knowledge, and all wisdom. . .

I can't know it, you can't, nobody on this board can no it. But what we can do is not say, I know my religion is right and your thoughts are wrong, but we should just accept the glorious complex, ecosystem of the spirit, where all work together for each others benefit, but not all do the same as each other, some are single-celled organisms, some or fungi, some are plants, some are animals. .

Edited April 26, 2009 by Kurall_Creator

[Kurall_Creator]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1848674' date='Apr 26 2009, 02:24 AM']How do you know that?[/quote]

I have faith that God guided the church fathers, the same way he guides me. They would know what is truth and what isn't truth, and wouldn't withhold anything we need for salvation.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848677' date='Apr 26 2009, 12:27 AM']Here's one that is going to send your for a flop thought. Even though I have the holy spirit, I know me, you, and everybody else can be in error, even though we have the spirit. Unless, you are saying you understand all truth, and all prophecies, and all knowledge, and all wisdom. . .

I can't know it, you can't, nobody on this board can no it. But what we can do is not say, I know my religion is right and your thoughts are wrong, but we should just accept the glorious complex, ecosystem of the spirit, where all work together for each others benefit, but not all do the same as each other, some are single-celled organisms, some or fungi, some are plants, some are animals. .[/quote]

Except for us to not correct a brother or sister who is in error is a sin of omission in failing to instruct the ignorant or to be my brother's keeper. When I recognize someone else in error in a matter where I am sure of the truth (any doctrine or dogma) then it is my duty as a Christian to seek to correct my brother or sister. I am sure that the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth as it is founded by Jesus Christ and is promised that the gates of hell will never prevail against it. For lies and false doctrinal teachings to enter the Church would be for Satan to prevail against the Church.