Did Jesus Want An Organize Religion

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848971' date='Apr 26 2009, 04:05 PM']And I think my POV on it is the same - whether it took 4.5 billion years or 6-days, the same events happened in the same order, and the same scientific truths are the same, and everything is 100 per cent the same, so it becomes abhorrant to me to hear so many Catholics say, it isn't scientific truth, when it is clearly that it is, and they haven't been properly informed scientifically or doctrinally that Genesis 1 is just as much scientific truth as it is moral truth, and that we can trust the entire meaning of it.[/quote]
Taken at a literalistic level, it is almost certainly false. There's an infinitely small chance that all the events of creation actually happened in a period of 144 hours.
That's what Catholics mean. Perhaps you should have sought understanding on the topic before being "abhorred" by it.

Edited April 26, 2009 by USAirwaysIHS

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848971' date='Apr 26 2009, 09:05 PM']That is exactly why I don't want this to degrade.

And I think my POV on it is the same - whether it took 4.5 billion years or 6-days, the same events happened in the same order, and the same scientific truths are the same, and everything is 100 per cent the same, so it becomes abhorrant to me to hear so many Catholics say, it isn't scientific truth, when it is clearly that it is, and they haven't been properly informed scientifically or doctrinally that Genesis 1 is just as much scientific truth as it is moral truth, and that we can trust the entire meaning of it.

Like who gets 10 for 10 scientific truths right, truths we have only learned in the past couple of hundred years, and have no knowledge of information theory (which is a new science all together), or the fossil record?

And that is the scientific truths as I have learned them, and I only have high school biology!

You see, I don't want this to become a whole doctrine thing, because I know all people are learning what is right and true doctrine all on they're own, and so, even the doctrine of what is the true church, well if people can be wrong about the doctrines of the creation, and not accept Genesis one as scientific truth, then is it possible people can also be wrong about the doctrine of what the church is?[/quote]
Forgive me if I'm misreading you, but it looks like you are confusing the teachings of the Church with what various individuals within the Church believe. The Catholic Church teaches true doctrine - always has and always will. We have been promised this. However, not everyone has the knowledge he should regarding these doctrines. This doesn't negate the doctrine itself or the Church, but it does mean the person in question needs to learn what the Church teaches and submit to that teaching.

BTW, just so you know, I'm not irritated/angry or anything in this debate. I know it can sometimes be difficult to gauge such things on a phorum. God bless.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1849001' date='Apr 26 2009, 09:25 PM']I've heard numerous Catholics (and I take this stance myself) say that Genesis is not to be taken literalistically.
By saying it's a metaphor means that there is a deeper meaning than what the words mean on the surface. It doesn't mean that it's just all made up or anything.
The Church takes no stance on whether evolution (or any other part of science) is true or false. She recognised long ago that she is all about the why, and science is about the how.
I don't see how your "ten truths" are in direct or indirect conflict with anything the Church teaches.[/quote]

[Kurall_Creator]

Guys, honestly, what all you are doing right now is exactly what I didn't want to happen.

So, Again I want this thread closed.

[mortify]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848921' date='Apr 26 2009, 03:20 PM']No one (and I mean no one) can truly know if they are deceived or not.[/quote]

Does this mean a person can't infallibly know that they are saved?

[quote]Moderators, I would like this thread closed down, because it just seems to me that is going around in circles, and it's just going to become an entirely negative experience for all![/quote]

You seem to be playing both sides. You express your disagreements with our "religion" (I thought being Christian means we're both part of the same religion?) but then you also say you don't like arguing, and would rather maintain a unity based on the love for Christ.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1849015' date='Apr 26 2009, 03:35 PM']Guys, honestly, what all you are doing right now is exactly what I didn't want to happen.

So, Again I want this thread closed.[/quote]
This thread will not likely be closed because no forum guidelines have been violated.
You posted a question in the debate table, we're answering. Now, if you can't return the volley, there's no shame in conceding the argument.
For future reference, if you don't like this type of heavy discussion, it's probably advisable to stay out of the Debate Table. (Not being uncharitable or snarky, just giving some advice.)

Edited April 26, 2009 by USAirwaysIHS

[dUSt]

Threads are not closed per request. Sorry about that. It's a public phorum, where all are invited to participate.

With that said, if you'd like to convert the the Catholic Church and become a phatmass "Church Scholar", you will have the power to close threads that you start. Tempting huh?

[CatherineM]

I can close threads I start? Cool. I just had such a power rush to my head.

[princessgianna]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1849015' date='Apr 26 2009, 03:35 PM']Guys, honestly, what all you are doing right now is exactly what I didn't want to happen.

So, Again I want this thread closed.[/quote]
We are asking questions! I never heard that to be a morally bad thing.

[Hassan]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1849100' date='Apr 26 2009, 05:34 PM']Threads are not closed per request. Sorry about that. It's a public phorum, where all are invited to participate.

With that said, if you'd like to convert the the Catholic Church and become a phatmass "Church Scholar", you will have the power to close threads that you start. Tempting huh?[/quote]


I don't start threads, I finish them.

Well if you accecpt Secret Islam you can hang out with me. You don't even have to apostasize from the Church as unlike actual muslims secret muslims don't have any actual religious beliefs or practices.

[Collegepak]

I'm not new to this forum, I've been reading through posts for some time now, but this will be my first post here I too have shared in the disgruntling confusions that surround the authority of the Church. Particularly that's exactly what is at stake, the AUTHORITY of the Church. Even by exacting all the possible facts that surround the Catholic/protestant split, it comes down to one thing, apostolic authority. I say this only because, structurally the Church of England (Anglican/Episcopal/Whatever) is almost identical to Mother Church. Two competing mother entities, guess which one is the whore of Babylon (btw they don't shy w/ their symbols or iconography). You can start an attempt at deconstruction by tracking the doctrines of the Church of England and comparing them to the Catholic Church over those same issues.

Next, read the episode of St. Paul's conversion. I know this isn't new, we Catholics encounter this story at least once a year on Sunday. Long story short, what I'd like to emphasize is the Call by God to Ananias of the Damascus prelature to cure St. Paul's blindness and to anoint him, semantically he was told to lay his hands on St. Paul into the light of Christ. What this codifies is the process of ordination, apostolic succession. Protestants normally, lest I bear false witness, refer to this as a free and unsanctioned conversion experience. Protestantism then justifies its claims of revelation by sola scriptura and sola fida. This issue has probably been beaten to a pulp already in this forum so I won't go into unless someone asks.

Last, and almost moving up the hierarchy keeping in mind process of apostolic succession, try reading Acts 15. I came upon the significance of this story through an ex-Protestant friend of mine who was brought into the Church by his love for Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. This is a great example of how the early Church through Peter had exerted his role in the Kingdom's ministry. In this episode, the early apostles are debating amongst themselves over the legitimacy and implementation of the mosaic law of circumcision. As a caveat, the practice of circumcision was and is for the Hasidic Jews a sign of promise to God of the debt they owe since Adam to work a life out of Eden. Ironically(sorry Protestants, but not really), the debate over the practice of circumcision was initiated by Paul and Barnabas who then took this question to newly baptized Pharisees on the grounds of tradition and upholding the whole of mosaic law. Amidst the debate Peter gives his decision and the room falls silent...in obedience.

[add]

Peter Means “Rock”
Blessed are you, Simon, son of John, for My Father in heaven has seen fit to give you this knowledge. From now on you shall be called Peter (rock), but upon Me shall I build my church. And I’ll even bless you with the keys to the kingdom

[Kurall_Creator]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1849033' date='Apr 26 2009, 03:50 PM']This thread will not likely be closed because no forum guidelines have been violated.
You posted a question in the debate table, we're answering. Now, if you can't return the volley, there's no shame in conceding the argument.
For future reference, if you don't like this type of heavy discussion, it's probably advisable to stay out of the Debate Table. (Not being uncharitable or snarky, just giving some advice.)[/quote]

Like I said before, I didn't start this thread, and I've been trying to derail it since it started.

I'm not a heavy debater with other brothers and sisters, because if you are in the light, and I am in the light, why are we trying to tell each other what doctrines will make our walks better. Is that what Jesus did when he came to the Earth?

And I have already conceded the fact that we need organization in religion, in so much as it doesn't interfere in our growth as children of God to accomplish our destinies in Jesus Christ, our lord, saviour, and God!

Edited April 26, 2009 by Kurall_Creator

[Kurall_Creator]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1849113' date='Apr 26 2009, 05:00 PM']I can close threads I start? Cool. I just had such a power rush to my head.[/quote]

I didn't start this thread. Check post [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s=&showtopic=93332&view=findpost&p=1848560"]1[/url] again.

[Kurall_Creator]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1849100' date='Apr 26 2009, 05:34 PM']Threads are not closed per request. Sorry about that. It's a public phorum, where all are invited to participate.

With that said, if you'd like to convert the the Catholic Church and become a phatmass "Church Scholar", you will have the power to close threads that you start. Tempting huh?[/quote]

Again dUSt, I didn't start this thread.

YOu can go back to Post one and see that PG started this thread.

At least you last sentence made me laugh, you're a good guy. It is 'tempting' LOL!

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1849178' date='Apr 26 2009, 07:08 PM']Like I said before, I didn't start this thread, and I've been trying to derail it since it started.

I'm not a heavy debater with other brothers and sisters, because if you are in the light, and I am in the light, why are we trying to tell each other what doctrines will make our walks better. Is that what Jesus did when he came to the Earth?

And I have already conceded the fact that we need organization in religion, in so much as it doesn't interfere in our growth as children of God to accomplish our destinies in Jesus Christ, our lord, saviour, and God![/quote]
By your calling for it to be closed, I could only assume it was you who started it. My mistake, I suppose.

Regardless, you forget that the Bible tells us to correct our brother when he is in error.
Jesus founded one Church - the Church now known as the Catholic Church. Using your light analogy, the Catholic Church is in full view of the light, in its full, unimpeded brightness. The other Christian ecclesial communities, and even other religions, perhaps, have some of the light. It might be passing through lampshades or filters or blinds or something, though. Try reading when the light that you have is being filtered by a red lens. It's not easy.
It's like this, in plainer terms: The Catholic Church has the keys to Heaven; the full, unadulterated truth; the true seven sacraments through which graces come. All salvation comes through Christ's Church, visible or invisible. While it is possible to be saved outside of Christ's [i]visible [/i]Church, who knows where that Church (the invisible Church) ends? I don't want to play a game of eternal Russian Roulette, and I don't want anyone else to, either. This is why we, as Catholics, are called to introduce the Church and her fullness to Truth and her sources of Grace to the whole world.
In conclusion, Truth should never be sacrificed for the sake of "niceness" or "peace".

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1849178' date='Apr 26 2009, 08:08 PM']Like I said before, I didn't start this thread, and I've been trying to derail it since it started.[/quote]
You should not post in threads with the intent of derailing them. It is acceptable to post in a thread addressing the original topic by stating your point of view; it is not acceptable to post in threads with legitimate topics attempting to demand that the topic not be discussed. If you don't want to discuss it yourself, don't post in the thread. Attempts to go into topics with the position "this topic shouldn't be discussed" is a type of ... please don't go around attempting to derail people's topics. if you don't want to debate things, I suggest not entering the phorum entitled "Debate Table"

[Kurall_Creator]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1849240' date='Apr 26 2009, 08:05 PM']You should not post in threads with the intent of derailing them. It is acceptable to post in a thread addressing the original topic by stating your point of view; it is not acceptable to post in threads with legitimate topics attempting to demand that the topic not be discussed. If you don't want to discuss it yourself, don't post in the thread. Attempts to go into topics with the position "this topic shouldn't be discussed" is a type of ... please don't go around attempting to derail people's topics. if you don't want to debate things, I suggest not entering the phorum entitled "Debate Table" [/quote]

I endevour to do so.

Good advice, and advice well taken.

[Church Punk]

What better way to stay united than to be organized?

My prayer for them is to be one as you the father and I are one.

Is there room for improvement in some areas of our church? you bet.

"But the Church is full of sinners" ....exactly the kind Jesus integrated the Church with. ...

A tax collector who swindled many out of their money.. Becomes one of the scripts for the Gospels.

Out right persecuting the Church promoting death of all who convert...Later becomes the greatest missionary to walk the earth.

Denying him 3 times that he even knows Him at his worst moment in Christs life...later goes on to become the leader of the apostles.

An odd bunch but they sure were organized. Paul even consults Peter when there is disagreement over circumcision and Peter gets the last say to make the declaration.

[Holly3278]

Of course He did. If He didn't, He wouldn't have founded the Catholic Church with a pope, bishops, and priests.