Did Jesus Want An Organize Religion

[Slappo]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848679' date='Apr 26 2009, 12:31 AM']I have faith that God guided the church fathers, the same way he guides me. They would know what is truth and what isn't truth, and wouldn't withhold anything we need for salvation.[/quote]

The Church Fathers who, by the way, were all Catholic...

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1848625' date='Apr 26 2009, 06:49 AM']Without organized religion, you would not know Jesus.
Without organized religion, we would have no Bible.

But back to the original question.

Yes, Jesus wanted an organized religion. Why? For the same reason he has an organized universe, with organized galaxies, and organized solar systems, with organized planets, with organized ecosystems, that contain organized living organisms.

God is organized, and we are made in the image and likeness of Him. We are an organized species, and organization is vital to our existence.

[b]Un-[/b]organized religion is what defies our very nature as God's creations.[/quote]
I love that answer, dUSt. I might have to borrow it sometime. . .

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848641' date='Apr 26 2009, 07:27 AM']Remember, the entire world will know we are God's children through our unity and love for one another. The best way to attack that is to cause disunity. So, we children of God will have to put up with the disunity while we are on the Earth, trusting in the day it will no longer be the case.[/quote]

But how are we unified if we disagree on doctrines? OK, some differences are larger than others, and we can be semi-unified in our worship of Christ, but the unity breaks down when you look at the differences in doctrine.

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848641' date='Apr 26 2009, 07:27 AM']BTW, there is this argument about doctrines about things. I would like to know if All Catholics 100 per cent totally agree with all Doctrines of the Catholic Religion. If members of your own religion can't agree with each other on everything, well, it's not a great argument about differences in denominations in the protestant world. . .[/quote]
I think Slappo covered that very well.

[quote name='Slappo' post='1848651' date='Apr 26 2009, 07:48 AM']That is theological relativism. That is why we care.

If someone believes in something that is a lie, it is our duty to instruct them in the truth. It is considered one of the corporal works of mercy in the Catholic Church to instruct the ignorant.

I would argue also that sins like pedophilia, even the modern cases, go back much farther then the author whom you stated. A sin of pedophilia is a sin of lust, power, and pride. These are the same sins that Adam committed. A sin of lust of the eyes (seeing that the fruit was good and then desiring it even though it was wrong), power (will be like God), and pride (forget exactly how this relates, but I think it had to do with thinking he didn't need God since he could be like God).

Pedophilia can also stem from other sins such as pornography and masturbation. Some Christians deny these acts to be sinful and for me to not correct them could cause them to commit further sins of lust and even pedophilia.[/quote]


[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848666' date='Apr 26 2009, 08:11 AM']But what about someone who agrees to the divinity as you believe it, who chooses to follow Christ as you understand him, and has been baptized, and has repented of their sins, and wishes to learn all they can of Christ and his sufferings, and to conform their lives to Christ, so they can find their life in Christ?

You see, the only person who would seek such a life is one who already has the holy spirit.

[snip]

Only a person with the holy spirit would want to live like Jesus lived, who would want to build up his fellow brothers and sisters, because he hears Jesus ask him, like he asked Peter, if you love me you will feed my sheep. I want to feed Jesus' sheep, as you want to feed Jesus' sheep. We both hear the call together, and we respond temparately to fulfill that call.

So, if you then asked, well do you recognize the primacy of the Pope, and someone says, well, no. I don't need a Pope to hear Jesus' call to feed his sheep, and to stand against the kingdom of darkness.[/quote]
I see what you're saying. However, if a person is being led by the Spirit and is wanting to follow the teachings of Jesus, then they will see that He established the papacy. They will heed His commands to observe the Eucharist. And yes, they will seek to follow the Great Commission. And if all these commands are to be obeyed, and are obeyed, then I honestly think the person will be Catholic, since it is only the Catholic Church that teaches & observes all of these. Or at least that's how I see it, and what brought me into the Church.

[Kurall_Creator]

I think this should help me explain my ideals.

[quote]Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed:[b] and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.[/b][/quote]

What did I say, that I accept Jesus Christ as my lord. What does scripture say as my only way of saying that? Only by the holy ghost/spirit. So, the holy scripture, which releases the spirit into our lives, because we can only have faith in God by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

[quote]Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.[/quote]

Sounds like God wants us to know there will be diversities and differences between all of us, like a great big ecosystem, all working together to build each other up, but each doing something different in our walk with God.

[quote]For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.[/quote]

Again, the spirit directs each believer into which ministry in the spirit he has.

[quote]For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

For the body is not one member, but many.[/quote]

Going back the beginning of this chapter, who are the only people who can say Jesus Christ is Lord? Only those with the holy spirit. So if you and I can both say Jesus Christ is Lord, than we both have the holy spirit, cause only the Holy Spirit can make Jesus Christ lord in us. So if we both has the same spirit confessing Jesus Christ as Lord, than we are also in the same body, despite our doctrinal differences.


[quote]If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

And if they were all one member, where were the body?

But now are they many members, yet but one body.[/quote]

Again, there is going to differences between how an eye works, and how feet work, and how ears work, ect, ect, ect, but they all work together for each other's benefit.

[quote]And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.[/quote]

Now, we can see some talk about Schism, however, how is it enjoined in scripture, that we should have the same care on for another. No matter what our ministries are, we are to take care of each other - no matter where God leads us, we are to take love each other, and do our best to be in unity with other believers.

Do I want to cause any suffering in anybody who is in the light?

That is why I don't push doctrines too much, when it comes to other believers. To unbelievers, I take the whole, what fellowship does light have with darkness scriptures to heart. But not a believer. If someone is already in the light, why do I have to prove that my way is better than their way, and why do they have to prove their way is better than mine, since we are both in the light, that Jesus, creator and protector of all life, is our lord, so we should do our best to protect all life, and be co-creators with him!

[quote]And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.[/quote]

Again the church is anybody with the holy spirit, who do make Jesus the Lord of their life. It is in all denominations, and not just in the Catholic Church, or the Protestant Church. BTW, there are those in all religions who go to church to be 'good people' who haven't made Jesus Lord, and who can't say Jesus is Lord, because the joys of this life, or the trials of this life are more important to them than Jesus!

[Slappo]

Catholic's do not deny that baptized Christians (baptism is a whole new issue to get into but not right now) are part of the body of Christ. Many Protestant denominations baptize in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Therefore all Christians, be them Protestant, Orthodox, or Catholic are members of the body of Christ and of the Church, however as Catholics we believe that only Catholics are in full communion with the Church. We therefore must evangelize even to our Christian protestant brothers and sisters in hopes to bring them into full communion with the Church. Christ established one Church for all of Christianity and we believe that Catholics have the fullness of that truth. The Second Vatican Council in 1962-1965 clearly stated that Protestants are members of the Church but are not in full communion with the Church. Since we believe Catholics to have the fullness of truth and Protestants to have only some truths, we are in union with them, but there is something missing in the union which is why we say they are not in full communion (communion = from [i]cum unus[/i] with one. We are not one because we are in disagreement, but at the same time we are one because we are in agreement therefore it is not full communion)

Maybe this clears up what Catholics really believe for you.

[Kurall_Creator]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1848691' date='Apr 26 2009, 03:02 AM']Catholic's do not deny that baptized Christians (baptism is a whole new issue to get into but not right now) are part of the body of Christ. Many Protestant denominations baptize in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Therefore all Christians, be them Protestant, Orthodox, or Catholic are members of the body of Christ and of the Church, however as Catholics we believe that only Catholics are in full communion with the Church. We therefore must evangelize even to our Christian protestant brothers and sisters in hopes to bring them into full communion with the Church. Christ established one Church for all of Christianity and we believe that Catholics have the fullness of that truth. The Second Vatican Council in 1962-1965 clearly stated that Protestants are members of the Church but are not in full communion with the Church. Since we believe Catholics to have the fullness of truth and Protestants to have only some truths, we are in union with them, but there is something missing in the union which is why we say they are not in full communion (communion = from [i]cum unus[/i] with one. We are not one because we are in disagreement, but at the same time we are one because we are in agreement therefore it is not full communion)

Maybe this clears up what Catholics really believe for you.[/quote]

I understand, and when presented in a humble way, I am not offended by them. I wanted to speak peaceful disagreeing words to keep the dialogue open and respectful. Yeah, I have different ideals, and you have different ideals, but we if can agree with certain doctrines then we can be in line with each other.

It's when the extremists come in and say it in no uncertain terms, if you are not Catholic, than you are the enemy, and I want to treat you like the enemy, and say you will burn in hell because you disagree with me. I've had that pushed down my throat before, and I don't like it much, so that is why I tend to stay away from these kinds of debates, but when I can use them to build bridges, I will do so.

I got that opportunity today, when someone started to say how lots of protestant churches will beaver dam Catholics to hell, and I said, it's basically a very crude form of mind control, fearing those who might choose to leave their flocks for Catholicism into submission, while artificially boosting the self-esteem of others who think they are better than Catholics, all because the pastors there are more interested in the thithes of those people, so they don't want to lose income. . .

I am glad for that opportunity to tell the truth, and freeing Angel*Star from those lies forever. Because, ultimately, the truth sets people free.

The next time you hear that from a member of a protestant church, tell them the only reason they are saying that is so someone can boost their self-esteem up artificially, so they think they are spiritually superior than you, and that's not the truth, but lies from Satan.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848688' date='Apr 26 2009, 08:52 AM']Sounds like God wants us to know there will be diversities and differences between all of us, like a great big ecosystem, all working together to build each other up, but each doing something different in our walk with God.

Again, the spirit directs each believer into which ministry in the spirit he has.

Going back the beginning of this chapter, who are the only people who can say Jesus Christ is Lord? Only those with the holy spirit. So if you and I can both say Jesus Christ is Lord, than we both have the holy spirit, cause only the Holy Spirit can make Jesus Christ lord in us. So if we both has the same spirit confessing Jesus Christ as Lord, than we are also in the same body, despite our doctrinal differences.

Again, there is going to differences between how an eye works, and how feet work, and how ears work, ect, ect, ect, but they all work together for each other's benefit.

Now, we can see some talk about Schism, however, how is it enjoined in scripture, that we should have the same care on for another. No matter what our ministries are, we are to take care of each other - no matter where God leads us, we are to take love each other, and do our best to be in unity with other believers.

Do I want to cause any suffering in anybody who is in the light?

That is why I don't push doctrines too much, when it comes to other believers. To unbelievers, I take the whole, what fellowship does light have with darkness scriptures to heart. But not a believer. If someone is already in the light, why do I have to prove that my way is better than their way, and why do they have to prove their way is better than mine, since we are both in the light, that Jesus, creator and protector of all life, is our lord, so we should do our best to protect all life, and be co-creators with him!

Again the church is anybody with the holy spirit, who do make Jesus the Lord of their life. It is in all denominations, and not just in the Catholic Church, or the Protestant Church. BTW, there are those in all religions who go to church to be 'good people' who haven't made Jesus Lord, and who can't say Jesus is Lord, because the joys of this life, or the trials of this life are more important to them than Jesus![/quote]
None of us would disagree that we have different gifts & functions within the Church. After all, we are not all priests, or teachers, etc. However, this does not indicate that doctrine is to be ignored; it merely indicates that we have different roles within one Body. In fact, St Paul excommunicated soomeone for immorlity ([url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Cor%205&version=49"]1 Cor 5:5[/url]). Jesus speaks of excommunicating unrepentent sinners in [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2018;&version=49;"]Matthew 18:17[/url]. And then, of course, there is Jesus' prayer that we will be one (John 17), so it sounds like we are to be completely unified. I personally don't see how such unity is possible without us having the same doctrines. I mean, Catholics hold to the Real Presence in the Eucharist, but Baptists don't. Do both love Jesus? Yes. But they are not unified.

[Kurall_Creator]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1848697' date='Apr 26 2009, 03:16 AM']None of us would disagree that we have different gifts & functions within the Church. After all, we are not all priests, or teachers, etc. However, this does not indicate that doctrine is to be ignored; it merely indicates that we have different roles within one Body. In fact, St Paul excommunicated soomeone for immorlity ([url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Cor%205&version=49"]1 Cor 5:5[/url]). Jesus speaks of excommunicating unrepentent sinners in [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2018;&version=49;"]Matthew 18:17[/url]. And then, of course, there is Jesus' prayer that we will be one (John 17), so it sounds like we are to be completely unified. I personally don't see how such unity is possible without us having the same doctrines. I mean, Catholics hold to the Real Presence in the Eucharist, but Baptists don't. Do both love Jesus? Yes. But they are not unified.[/quote]

As I said, basically, is that there will always be differences in how we relate to God, because from 33 A.D. Satan has been working to create disunity between us.

Well, it upsets me just as much as it upsets you too. I would love one unified body of Christ, but that isn't going to happen until Jesus comes back. . .

When he comes back, he will correct all of our incorrect doctrines, and there will be a lasting unity that will never fade.

Until then, we are going to have to put up with our differences, get over them, and instead of looking at what is different, look at what is right about each other.

I'd hate to say this, but looking at the differences between different groups allowed Adolph Hitler to convince Germans that six-million Jewish people needed to be murdered, allows KKK members to murder innocent member of different racial backgrounds, and many other things. So why are people in the light looking at each other, judging each other as how they are different than one another, when that's what evil people do. Looking at what is different in a negative way is evil, period, end of story.

So, lets not fall for that trick of Satan, and instead look at what is right!

[Slappo]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848694' date='Apr 26 2009, 12:13 AM']I understand, and when presented in a humble way, I am not offended by them. I wanted to speak peaceful disagreeing words to keep the dialogue open and respectful. Yeah, I have different ideals, and you have different ideals, but we if can agree with certain doctrines then we can be in line with each other.[/quote]

But only partially in line with each other since I still believe that you do not yet know crucial truths to Christianity and will pray for you as well as do my best to actively show you the error of any false teachings you believe. It is my duty as a Christian to do so in a charitable manner.

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848694' date='Apr 26 2009, 12:13 AM']It's when the extremists come in and say it in no uncertain terms, if you are not Catholic, than you are the enemy, and I want to treat you like the enemy, and say you will burn in hell because you disagree with me. I've had that pushed down my throat before, and I don't like it much, so that is why I tend to stay away from these kinds of debates, but when I can use them to build bridges, I will do so.

I got that opportunity today, when someone started to say how lots of protestant churches will beaver dam Catholics to hell, and I said, it's basically a very crude form of mind control, fearing those who might choose to leave their flocks for Catholicism into submission, while artificially boosting the self-esteem of others who think they are better than Catholics, all because the pastors there are more interested in the thithes of those people, so they don't want to lose income. . .

I am glad for that opportunity to tell the truth, and freeing Angel*Star from those lies forever. Because, ultimately, the truth sets people free.

The next time you hear that from a member of a protestant church, tell them the only reason they are saying that is so someone can boost their self-esteem up artificially, so they think they are spiritually superior than you, and that's not the truth, but lies from Satan.[/quote]

While I don't believe that you will burn in hell for what you believe (as that itself would be a sin), I do believe that because you lack many crucial truths that your ability to discern sin and follow Christ is severely limited and therefore the ease in which you could fall under the wiles of Satan increased which could lead to your eternal damnation. Please notice that I said nothing of your current state in judgment for or against your salvation only that I believe it to be easier for you to fall away from Christianity because of the truths that you have not yet come to realize. Catholics also do not believe that once a man is "saved" he is always saved. I put saved in quotations because I mean saved in the sense that Protestants use the word. Catholics believe salvation to be eternal, but also not to be obtained until death. I am not saved yet because while I am alive on earth it is still possible for me to turn away from God. (I'm really trying to emphasize that the state of your soul is not something that I can know anything about and that from a purely objective prospective I believe it easier for one who is not in the fullness of truth and has only a partial truth to fall away from Christ than one in the fullness of truth)

I don't think Angel*Star believed any of those lies. I think the purpose of her post was to show the hypocrisy of many Protestant communities.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848698' date='Apr 26 2009, 12:23 AM']Well, it upsets me just as much as it upsets you too. I would love one unified body of Christ, but that isn't going to happen until Jesus comes back. . .

When he comes back, he will correct all of our incorrect doctrines, and there will be a lasting unity that will never fade.

Until then, we are going to have to put up with our differences, get over them, and instead of looking at what is different, look at what is right about each other.

(snip)

So, lets not fall for that trick of Satan, and instead look at what is right![/quote]

It may be that not all Christians be unified before Christ comes back, but that does not mean it isn't something that we should strive for before His return.

Until then we are going to have to [b]reconcile[/b] our differences, not just put up with them. If I believe that you believe lies that may possibly put your soul at risk, then let God strike me with a bolt of lightning (serious prayer here) before I let you believe those lies rather then seek to help bring you to the full truth because it'd be better for me to die then to let the blood of a soul I could have help saved and failed to because of fear or sloth be on my conscience.

[Kurall_Creator]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1848700' date='Apr 26 2009, 03:30 AM']But only partially in line with each other since I still believe that you do not yet know crucial truths to Christianity and will pray for you as well as do my best to actively show you the error of any false teachings you believe. It is my duty as a Christian to do so in a charitable manner.[/quote]

I can accept that. Instead of prayers for any errors to be corrected, could I recommend you pray that God continues to give my body strength, and the protection of his angels.

[quote name='Slappo' post='1848700' date='Apr 26 2009, 03:30 AM']While I don't believe that you will burn in hell for what you believe (as that itself would be a sin), I do believe that because you lack many crucial truths that your ability to discern sin and follow Christ is severely limited and therefore the ease in which you could fall under the wiles of Satan increased which could lead to your eternal damnation. Please notice that I said nothing of your current state in judgment for or against your salvation only that I believe it to be easier for you to fall away from Christianity because of the truths that you have not yet come to realize. Catholics also do not believe that once a man is "saved" he is always saved. I put saved in quotations because I mean saved in the sense that Protestants use the word. Catholics believe salvation to be eternal, but also not to be obtained until death. I am not saved yet because while I am alive on earth it is still possible for me to turn away from God. (I'm really trying to emphasize that the state of your soul is not something that I can know anything about and that from a purely objective prospective I believe it easier for one who is not in the fullness of truth and has only a partial truth to fall away from Christ than one in the fullness of truth)[/quote]

I appreciate your thoughts. I also have a similar ideal, that salvation comes after you die - or Jesus comes back (and those who are alive and remain will be caught up to be with him), as that is scriptural.

The whole differences in the heaven/hell doctrines of both sides, and salvation, is man's mind can't understand, imagine, or comprehend heaven and eternity. . . And therefore that is really a bad doctrines to argue about. It's ridiculous to me, because no one can understand that area, even if you have the spirit!

[quote name='Slappo' post='1848700' date='Apr 26 2009, 03:30 AM']I don't think Angel*Star believed any of those lies. I think the purpose of her post was to show the hypocrisy of many Protestant communities.[/quote]

Hey, after what I said, don't you also think I know the hypocrisy of those communities too, and as a result, does not the same spirit work in me, that also works in you, that we see things in similar ways, despite we being two different people.

Know you what, I would rather focus on what we have in common than what is different about us!

[Kurall_Creator]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1848701' date='Apr 26 2009, 03:36 AM']It may be that not all Christians be unified before Christ comes back, but that does not mean it isn't something that we should strive for before His return.

Until then we are going to have to [b]reconcile[/b] our differences, not just put up with them. If I believe that you believe lies that may possibly put your soul at risk, then let God strike me with a bolt of lightning (serious prayer here) before I let you believe those lies rather then seek to help bring you to the full truth because it'd be better for me to die then to let the blood of a soul I could have help saved and failed to because of fear or sloth be on my conscience.[/quote]

I kinda appreciate that, but you have already done that, so I absolve you of this duty. I've heard, loud and clear.

So, lets 'forget about it' and go on being friends.

BTW, I promised not to do this on the lame board, but have you watched any of videos that I have created - [url="http://www.youtube.com/user/KurallsGame"]http://www.youtube.com/user/KurallsGame[/url]

You will not be disappointed if you do!

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848698' date='Apr 26 2009, 09:23 AM']As I said, basically, is that there will always be differences in how we relate to God, because from 33 A.D. Satan has been working to create disunity between us.

Well, it upsets me just as much as it upsets you too. I would love one unified body of Christ, but that isn't going to happen until Jesus comes back. . .

When he comes back, he will correct all of our incorrect doctrines, and there will be a lasting unity that will never fade.[/quote] So doctrines do matter.


[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848698' date='Apr 26 2009, 09:23 AM']Until then, we are going to have to put up with our differences, get over them, and instead of looking at what is different, look at what is right about each other.

I'd hate to say this, but looking at the differences between different groups allowed Adolph Hitler to convince Germans that six-million Jewish people needed to be murdered, allows KKK members to murder innocent member of different racial backgrounds, and many other things. So why are people in the light looking at each other, judging each other as how they are different than one another, when that's what evil people do. Looking at what is different in a negative way is evil, period, end of story.

So, lets not fall for that trick of Satan, and instead look at what is right![/quote]
As Slappo said, we need to reconcile the differences, not just ignore them or put up with them. And yes, we do need to look at what is right, and affirm that when we see a correct doctrine in another (as St Paul did). However, we cannot stop there. To go back to St Paul, he didn't just affirm what another got right and leave it at that, he then went on to correct the things they got wrong. If doctrine didn't matter, that would have been pointless. And it is something that must be done out of love, not out of feeling superior or anything. Slappo said it really well, so I'll quote him.

[quote name='Slappo' post='1848701' date='Apr 26 2009, 09:36 AM']It may be that not all Christians be unified before Christ comes back, but that does not mean it isn't something that we should strive for before His return.

Until then we are going to have to [b]reconcile[/b] our differences, not just put up with them. If I believe that you believe lies that may possibly put your soul at risk, then let God strike me with a bolt of lightning (serious prayer here) before I let you believe those lies rather then seek to help bring you to the full truth because it'd be better for me to die then to let the blood of a soul I could have help saved and failed to because of fear or sloth be on my conscience.[/quote]

[Slappo]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848702' date='Apr 26 2009, 01:41 AM']I can accept that. Instead of prayers for any errors to be corrected, could I recommend you pray that God continues to give my body strength, and the protection of his angels.[/quote]
The state of your immortal soul is infinitely more important to me then the state of your earthly body. However, I will pray for good health to you as well. God grant you many years!


[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848702' date='Apr 26 2009, 01:41 AM']I appreciate your thoughts. I also have a similar ideal, that salvation comes after you die - or Jesus comes back (and those who are alive and remain will be caught up to be with him), as that is scriptural.

The whole differences in the heaven/hell doctrines of both sides, and salvation, is man's mind can't understand, imagine, or comprehend heaven and eternity. . . And therefore that is really a bad doctrines to argue about. It's ridiculous to me, because no one can understand that area, even if you have the spirit!



Hey, after what I said, don't you also think I know the hypocrisy of those communities too, and as a result, does not the same spirit work in me, that also works in you, that we see things in similar ways, despite we being two different people.[/quote]

It is true that the great secrets of heaven will not be revealed until heaven is attained, but I think we can know a little bit more about salvation then what you appear to be saying.

I think you do realize the hypocrisy of those communities and am glad that you are not in near as much error as they for they commit the sin of judgment of another's soul.

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848702' date='Apr 26 2009, 01:41 AM']Know you what, I would rather focus on what we have in common than what is different about us![/quote]
I think you ought to stick around the forums that way you can see both what we have in common [b]and[/b] what we disagree on as you may see our reasons for believing what we do to be inspired by the Spirit and through that yourself come to a deeper understanding of truth. I will pray that you do so!

[Kurall_Creator]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1848704' date='Apr 26 2009, 03:48 AM']So doctrines do matter.



As Slappo said, we need to reconcile the differences, not just ignore them or put up with them. And yes, we do need to look at what is right, and affirm that when we see a correct doctrine in another (as St Paul did). However, we cannot stop there. To go back to St Paul, he didn't just affirm what another got right and leave it at that, he then went on to correct the things they got wrong. If doctrine didn't matter, that would have been pointless. And it is something that must be done out of love, not out of feeling superior or anything. Slappo said it really well, so I'll quote him.


[/quote]

Cool.

Like I said, I absolve you of any responsibility to instruct me. You don't have to make sure I am continuing to do what I need to do in my Christian Walk. God has made sure that my walk with him, and my ministry in him will continue, no matter where I go, what I do as a vocation, or anything else. Nothing ever separates me from it, because nothing ever separates me from God. I couldn't leave God behind now, or forsake God in any way, because my immortal life depends on it!

Night all.

Edited April 26, 2009 by Kurall_Creator

[Slappo]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848703' date='Apr 26 2009, 01:44 AM']I kinda appreciate that, but you have already done that, so I absolve you of this duty. I've heard, loud and clear.

So, lets 'forget about it' and go on being friends.[/quote]

I'm not nearly done doing that. In fact it has only just begun, especially if you stick around the forum! Be it verbally or through prayer my mission doesn't end until the day I die, and even then, following in the words of St. Therese, I will spend my time in heaven doing work on earth.

I'm sure if you stick around and participate them, there will be many more threads with charitable conversations seeking the truth, and I hope if nothing else that you at least grow in a love for and respect of the beliefs of Catholics even if you yourself do not become one. As we've seen in previous posts, some rather then seeking to understand us seek to beaver dam us to hell.

However for the sake of this thread, it would almost be beating a dead horse unless the thread went into a new avenue of organized religion.

God grant you many years,
Marcus

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848698' date='Apr 26 2009, 04:23 AM']As I said, basically, is that there will always be differences in how we relate to God, because from 33 A.D. Satan has been working to create disunity between us.

Well, it upsets me just as much as it upsets you too. I would love one unified body of Christ, but that isn't going to happen until Jesus comes back. . .[/quote]

How do you know this?

[quote]When he comes back, he will correct all of our incorrect doctrines, and there will be a lasting unity that will never fade.

Until then, we are going to have to put up with our differences, get over them, and instead of looking at what is different, look at what is right about each other.

I'd hate to say this, but looking at the differences between different groups allowed Adolph Hitler to convince Germans that six-million Jewish people needed to be murdered, allows KKK members to murder innocent member of different racial backgrounds, and many other things. So why are people in the light looking at each other, judging each other as how they are different than one another, when that's what evil people do. Looking at what is different in a negative way is evil, period, end of story.

So, lets not fall for that trick of Satan, and instead look at what is right![/quote]

Again....how do you know this?

----------------
Now playing: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/gerry+rafferty/track/baker+street+(edit)"]Gerry Rafferty - Baker Street (Edit)[/url]
via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url]

[Galloglasses' Alt]

[quote]So, lets not fall for that trick of Satan, and instead look at what is right![/quote]
So dis-unity is right?

[dUSt]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848698' date='Apr 26 2009, 04:23 AM']So, lets not fall for that trick of Satan, and instead look at what is right![/quote]
I tend to think that disorganizing Christianity and having thousands of different Christian denominations is the ultimate trick of Satan.

It is the splintering up of Christianity that has led people to denying Christ. It is the so-called Christian TV evangelists that have had an influence of an entire generation to reject Christ. It is our disunity that has made people skeptics. It is the relativism of "as long as we love Jesus it doesn't matter what we believe" that has diluted our rich faith to a point where nobody is interested anymore. I think your brand of Christianity is like a feel good movie with a simple plot. Sure, it makes you feel good for a couple hours, but will you ever want to go back and watch it over and over and over again?

So, when I listen to the Holy Spirit, it tells me that I should do everything in my power to bring all Christians back to the church that He established. [b]It is truly a trick of Satan to make Christians believe anything else.[/b]

[Kurall_Creator]

I think we're all going around in circles.

As I said, I have no interest in this degrading, and when you see circles in arguments, it will always end up one person or side getting totally upset at the other side. I'm not interested in doing that, and so, I have to end this exchange.

I appreciate the kind spirits of people here, and I certainly appreciate all of your passion. Just don't be so passionate that it drives people away. Remember, Jesus calls believers the salt of the Earth, and what good is salt if it is too strong that you don't eat the food it is flavouring?

[princessgianna]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848874' date='Apr 26 2009, 12:41 PM']I think we're all going around in circles.

As I said, I have no interest in this degrading, and when you see circles in arguments, it will always end up one person or side getting totally upset at the other side. I'm not interested in doing that, and so, I have to end this exchange.

I appreciate the kind spirits of people here, and I certainly appreciate all of your passion. Just don't be so passionate that it drives people away. Remember, Jesus calls believers the salt of the Earth, and what good is salt if it is too strong that you don't eat the food it is flavouring?[/quote]Peace-

Several people have asked you questions-you don't answer.

There is a way to be Christ like and still hold a decent discussion. I long with many others (i am sure) are confused at where you coming from. You claim it's Christ (which is awesome) though you[b] reject[/b] His Church under Peter (MT 16:18) which He left to teach and guide His people.

Since Jesus loves us so much-He didn't want to us to accidentally (you claimed that you along with the rest of us are fallible) fall into error. In order to protect His Church He sent the Holy Spirit (JN 20:22) and "promised that the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it". (MT 16:18)

This isn't about you or I being right, It's about what is the [b]Truth[/b].
Truth can not be different. Either Jesus is God or he isn't. Either priest have the power to forgive sins (JN 20:22 MT 18:18 ) or they don't!

Truth is not a relative thinking! Truth can not counter-dict!

The Catholic Church was the ONLY Christian Church since 1400 at best. Either the Church was given authority by God to lead His people or not!

Discussing theology is one of the many ways(when done in a Christ-like manner) to understand Christ better and His Truth. It was not about your ideals beat my ideals- it's about [b]seeking the Truth[/b]

Peace
Gianna

Edited April 26, 2009 by princessgianna