Charismatic Catholics

[RezaMikhaeil]

I reciently [within the last 6 months if I'm not mistaken] ran into a girl that said she belonged to a Christmatic Catholic Church. She gave me information that suggested that it wasn't against the philosphy of the Roman Catholic Church, what's everyone's thought regarding this?

I'm Orthodox as everyone knows and the Orthodox Churchs, both Oriental and Eastern, have taken a pretty clear stance on this, but I'm not sure if the Roman Catholic is in agreement.

Reza

Edited May 12, 2009 by RezaLemmyng

[fides quarens intellectum]

Hi, Reza!

I'm not sure what specifically you are having a concern/question about, but i do know there are some resident Phatmassers who have been involved in the Charismatic movement within the Church, so they may see this and chime in.

In the meantime, we've had a few threads about it in the past:
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=83286"]Spiritual Gifts thread from Open Mic[/url]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=71159"]Charismatic Movement - from Open Mic[/url]

There are other threads, too.

As for your friend, though, this is the first time i've ever heard of a "Christmatic Catholic Church."

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' post='1865150' date='May 12 2009, 10:07 AM']Hi, Reza!

I'm not sure what specifically you are having a concern/question about, but i do know there are some resident Phatmassers who have been involved in the Charismatic movement within the Church, so they may see this and chime in.

In the meantime, we've had a few threads about it in the past:
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=83286"]Spiritual Gifts thread from Open Mic[/url]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=71159"]Charismatic Movement - from Open Mic[/url]

There are other threads, too.

As for your friend, though, this is the first time i've ever heard of a "Christmatic Catholic Church." [/quote]

I may have mis-written that at midnight, she was catholic, but her catholic church was considering "charismatic catholic", and it just kinda struck me as "different"...thanks for the link thou.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1864834' date='May 11 2009, 11:22 PM']I'm Orthodox as everyone knows and the Orthodox Churchs, both Oriental and Eastern, have taken a pretty clear stance on this, but I'm not sure if the Roman Catholic is in agreement.

Reza[/quote]
I share your concerns about the charismatic movement.

God grant you many joyful years!

[Ziggamafu]

Whereas the gift of tongues at Pentecost represented a reversal of Babel, the novel "gift of tongues" that has appeared so recently seems to represent a reinstitution of Babel. The most I've seen for biblical support of glossolalia is the reference to "tongues of angels" and another reference to "groans of the Holy Spirit". Neither of these references must necessarily be interpreted to mean the incoherent babbling of glossolalia (a phenomenon that we see elsewhere in extremely pagan / primitive religions). And indeed it would seem that the Fathers saw tongues as strictly the gift of linguistics, from what I remember. Tongues is the only gift that we are told would cease. St. Augustine thought that this cessation had occurred in his day. I also have concerns that all of these gifts of the new "charismatic" movement serve to foster elitism and self-righteousness.

HAVING SAID ALL OF THAT:

It is difficult to deny the fruit of the charismatic movement. I have been told (though I did not check this for myself) that the number one parish in the nation for vocations is charismatic (out of Ann Arbor) and so is the number two parish (out of Dallas). And I can personally testify to the vibrancy and majority-devotion of the single charismatic parish in my area. Their kids are excited about their faith, which says a lot. And other than their permission to insert a period of charismatic "worship" into the Mass, they are very strict in their adherence to the rubrics of the Latin-rite Novus Ordo. So what can I say? Can Satan cast out Satan? I am left with the general feeling that even if this new charismaticism is not of holy supernatural origins, neither is it of unholy supernatural origins. Perhaps glossolalia and the other "gifts" are strictly products of human psychology / silliness.

Edited May 12, 2009 by Ziggamafu

[RezaMikhaeil]

The problem that I have with this idea that the fruit of the charismatic movement is substanial is that the fruit is also accompanied by many heresies including false prophesy [a grave sin].

We're told that Saints, such as the Desert Fathers, were amongst the most Holy that the earth has ever seen, yet there is no recording of them having spoken in such a tongue.

However, the Desert Fathers, fruit, if compared to the Charismatic Movement, blew their out of the water. The Desert Fathers raised people from the dead, I have yet to see a credible instance, where the Chrismatics have done that! Chrismatics, such as Benny Hinn, sadly are eager to prove themselves by falsifying such miracles.

The Desert Fathers were also slow to display miracels that had came through them, and were even slower with their tongue. Even more evidence is in the fact that nobody saw the fruits of the desert fathers blended with heresy.

Reza

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1865262' date='May 12 2009, 10:41 AM']I share your concerns about the charismatic movement.

God grant you many joyful years![/quote]

May Joyful years to you too my friend!

[SaintOlaf]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1865410' date='May 12 2009, 04:49 PM']The problem that I have with this idea that the fruit of the charismatic movement is substanial is that the fruit is also accompanied by many heresies including false prophesy [a grave sin].[/quote]


Not to nitpick you, but you continually assume that false prophecy is something that accompanies all of the modern charismatic gifts. I would like to see some proof of this. I explained in the other thread about private revelation and how one needs to be able to separate the private revelation from dogma.

If hearing a group praying in tongues makes you uncomfortable then dismiss yourself from their presence, but don't automatically condemn them with accusations of false prophecy without proof to back it up. The charismatic parish that I attend is very down to earth and when at a prayer meeting (not in the liturgy) a prophesy is heard, the faithful are reminded that it is a private revelation.

[Apotheoun]

I expressed my views on the [i]Charismatic Movement[/i] in a thread some years ago, and I haven't really changed my position since that time:

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s=&showtopic=50528&view=findpost&p=943350"][b][u]In a debate, quick...[/u][/b][/url]

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='SaintOlaf' post='1865488' date='May 12 2009, 03:32 PM']Not to nitpick you, but you continually assume that false prophecy is something that accompanies all of the modern charismatic gifts. I would like to see some proof of this. I explained in the other thread about private revelation and how one needs to be able to separate the private revelation from dogma.

If hearing a group praying in tongues makes you uncomfortable then dismiss yourself from their presence, but don't automatically condemn them with accusations of false prophecy without proof to back it up. The charismatic parish that I attend is very down to earth and when at a prayer meeting (not in the liturgy) a prophesy is heard, the faithful are reminded that it is a private revelation.[/quote]

First if they were speaking in tongues without interpretation, that goes against the scriptures, but it has nothing to do with me feeling "uncomfortable", rather many of my relatives are charismatics, before I'd gone into foster care, I'd attended a charismatic church. The issue isn't that, I'd...on my own accounts, witnessed many false prophesies. IE: A woman once claimed to have prophesied over me saying that I was goiing to be a mighty prophet as an adult. I'm an adult now and not a prophet, so that's a false prophesy. That's just but a single example, I have millions from all different Charismatic groups.

Even those examples are not what made my mind up on the issue, what made my mind up was the proof that I'd given above. Following the Path of the Saints is what we should be encouraging.

Reza

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1865501' date='May 12 2009, 03:45 PM']I expressed my views on the [i]Charismatic Movement[/i] in a thread some years ago, and I haven't really changed my position since that time:

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s=&showtopic=50528&view=findpost&p=943350"][b][u]In a debate, quick...[/u][/b][/url][/quote]


What you wrote there is almost identical to what His Holiness Pope Shenouda III [Coptic Patriarch] wrote in his book, "comparative theology" [http://tasbeha.org/content/hh_books/Comptheo/index.html].

[quote]One of the fathers said: "If God gives you a gift, ask Him
to give you humility with it to protect it, or ask Him to take
this gift from you."[/quote]

Charismatics say that they've "recieved the baptism of the holy spirit", yet in liturgy is that not given?

[quote]But to grant the Holy Spirit is the task of the clergymen,
first practised by the Apostles by the lying on of hands,
then by the clergymen in the Sacrament of Chrismation.
We receive the Holy Spirit in the Sacrament of Chrismation
(Confirmation) after the Sacrament of Baptism. The Holy Bible
mentions this Anointing in (1 John.2: 20,27) and mentions the
laying on of hands by the Apostles in (Acts 8: 14-17).
The authority to grant the Holy Spirit, which was the
Apostles' and then their successors', is claimed today by youth
and laity who commend the Holy Spirit to others to let them be
filled with the Holy Spirit and speak with tongues![/quote]

Most Charismatics pray for gifts, such as speaking in tongues.

[quote]In our Orthodox theology, whoever receives a gift tries to
hide it, as did Bishop St. Serapion who had the gift of healing,
and many other saints.
Are gifts granted or are they requested?
God endows whatever gift He wishes to whomever He
wishes in the time His Divine Wisdom defines, according to His
words: "The kingdom of God does not come with observation"
(Lk.17: 20). Gifts are like the wind that blows wherever it
wishes, "as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith"
(Rom.12: 3). Why are gifts prayed for, then? And why the gift
of Speaking in tongues in particular?[/quote]

Those that claim to speak in tongues do so for self edification [even according to their own written documents]. I can't count the number of times I'd heard charismatics say, "its a private spiritual language" or a "prayer language" betwee them and God. This is what is in their own liturature, yet the the same Biblical scriptures that they claim support their practice [which it doesn't if interpreted correctly] says that tongues are for non-believers, not believers.

[quote]Speaking in tongues is a sign for unbelievers
In the Apostle's opinion, believers will benefit from
forthtelling, whereas unbelievers will profit from the tongues
provided that they are interpreted. He says: "Therefore
tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to
unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for
those who believe" (v.22).
Therefore if those who are present in church are believers,
what is the benefit of Speaking in tongues, according to the
Apostle's teaching?[/quote]

We know that the Eucharist can save people, putting life into them.

[quote]Many people lost their salvation and perished despite
their possession of spiritual gifts
The gifts did not help them and did not save them. Thus the
Lord says: "Many will say to Me in that day, `Lord, Lord, have
we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your
name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will
declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from Me, you who
practise lawlessness!' " (Matt.7: 22,23)[/quote]


There is many more good points of his book, but these are key points that I thought were similiar to your own post, which was great!

Sadly, I find that most Charismatics don't seem to be able to support their position with the Earliest of Saints, or even the scriptures themselves.

Reza

[Guest]

Peace My homeboy SaintWannabe is involved with the Charismatic Movement and I hope he chimes in. I sorta find this thread disrespectfull to him though and dont blame him if he doesn't respond. Godbless.

Edited May 13, 2009 by Guest

[MStar]

Two threads on Charismatic stuff! I very much enjoy this topic. And I hope SaintWannabe gets involved too DelieveryBoy, although I don't see why it would be disrespectful to him, I'm sure RezaLemmyng isn't aiming it at anyone.

Anyhoo...what about this verse in 1 Cor. 12:31 when St. Paul, discussing the charisms, says "But strive for the greater gifts." (other translations I've seen say "eagerly desire"). Paul expected these gifts to exist in the community.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='MStar' post='1865665' date='May 12 2009, 06:33 PM']Two threads on Charismatic stuff! I very much enjoy this topic. And I hope SaintWannabe gets involved too DelieveryBoy, although I don't see why it would be disrespectful to him, I'm sure RezaLemmyng isn't aiming it at anyone.

Anyhoo...what about this verse in 1 Cor. 12:31 when St. Paul, discussing the charisms, says "But strive for the greater gifts." (other translations I've seen say "eagerly desire"). Paul expected these gifts to exist in the community.[/quote]

Yeah I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but of course I have my opinions, as do others.

In regards to 1 Cor. 12:31, I don't see this as proving the Charismatic gifts, but rather order of spiritual gifts that were found amongst the Saints and recorded in our thousands of years of history.

Higher gifts would be to love, as the writing goes on to say...

[quote]The Spiritual Gifts and the
Gift of Tongues
Some of our Protestant brethren cling to the spiritual gifts
and strive to attain them as privileges of being God's children
and heirs. They put before them the verse: "But earnestly
desire the best gifts", without taking into account the
completion of the verse: "And yet I show you a more excellent
way," (1Cor.12: 31).
While they give great importance to the gift of Speaking in
tongues, they disregard that immediately after this verse the
Apostle Paul says: "Though I speak with the tongues of men
and of angels, but have not love, I have become as sounding
brass or a clanging cymbal" (1Cor.13: 1). The Apostle is
explaining how love is preferred to all the gifts.
The fruit of the Spirit is more important for your salvation
than the gifts of the Spirit
St. Paul the Apostle talked about the fruit of the Spirit,
saying: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace,
longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness,
self-control" (Gal.5: 22,23). The Apostle Paul said that love,
which is the first fruit of the Spirit, is greater than faith that can
move mountains (1 Cor.13: 2,13). And the Lord said about
love: "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the
Prophets" (Matt.22: 40).
When the disciples returned to the Lord Jesus joyful over
gifts, He said to them: "Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this,
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that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because
your names are written in heaven" (Lk.10: 20).[/quote]

I think the part that we dispute is weather the scriptures of 1 Corinthians testify of the charismatic doctrines, "baptism of the holy spirit" [etc]. I don't believe that they testify of such, but rather people interpret them as such.

[quote]But to grant the Holy Spirit is the task of the clergymen,
first practised by the Apostles by the lying on of hands,
then by the clergymen in the Sacrament of Chrismation.
We receive the Holy Spirit in the Sacrament of Chrismation
(Confirmation) after the Sacrament of Baptism. The Holy Bible
mentions this Anointing in (1 John.2: 20,27) and mentions the
laying on of hands by the Apostles in (Acts 8: 14-17).
The authority to grant the Holy Spirit, which was the
Apostles' and then their successors', is claimed today by youth
and laity who commend the Holy Spirit to others to let them be
filled with the Holy Spirit and speak with tongues![/quote]

I'd heard these scriptures quoted by people that believe in "the baptism of the holy spirit" [charismatic interpretation], as to say that it's refering to that. Yet according to the Orthodox doctrines [and I'm pretty sure the Roman Catholic Doctrines], its referencing Christmation/Confirmation. I'd heard the phrase used, "I recieved the baptism of the holy spirit", yet we're taught in true orthodoxy [roman and eastern], that we recieve the Holy Spirt in Christmation, so I find it incompatible that we could recieve it again.

[quote]The Apostle says: "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but
my understanding is unfruitful" (v.14). The Apostle could see that
this state should be completed by understanding. The person
should pray in spirit and also with understanding; sing in spirit and
also with understanding. Although the Apostle mentions the
phrase `edifies himself' very cautiously and with remarks, and
points out that it is not a complete edification, yet for the sake of
edification he says: "I thank my God I speak with tongues more
than you all; yet in the church I would rather speak five words
with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten
thousand words in a tongue" (vv.18, 19).
Therefore there is no need for people to strive with all their
might to speak with tongues, believing that this is a great
achievement.
If this is the case of Speaking in tongues as a gift of the Holy
Spirit, what then shall we say when some people claim to speak
with tongues and we are not certain of the genuineness of their
claim?[/quote]

[quote](7) Speaking in tongues is a sign for unbelievers
In the Apostle's opinion, believers will benefit from
forthtelling, whereas unbelievers will profit from the tongues
provided that they are interpreted. He says: "Therefore
tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to
unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for
those who believe" (v.22).
Therefore if those who are present in church are believers,
what is the benefit of Speaking in tongues, according to the
Apostle's teaching?[/quote]

If tongues is a sign for unbelievers, then why would believers partake in it, and where does the "prayer language" concept fall into place?

[saintwannabe 777]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1865589' date='May 12 2009, 06:58 PM']What you wrote there is almost identical to what His Holiness Pope Shenouda III [Coptic Patriarch] wrote in his book, "comparative theology" [http://tasbeha.org/content/hh_books/Comptheo/index.html].



Charismatics say that they've "recieved the baptism of the holy spirit", yet in liturgy is that not given?

Baptism of the holy spirit is different than Baptism itself. It is a movement of the Holy Spirit that opens up the possibility for a closer relationship with God.

Most Charismatics pray for gifts, such as speaking in tongues.



Those that claim to speak in tongues do so for self edification [even according to their own written documents]. I can't count the number of times I'd heard charismatics say, "its a private spiritual language" or a "prayer language" betwee them and God. This is what is in their own liturature, yet the the same Biblical scriptures that they claim support their practice [which it doesn't if interpreted correctly] says that tongues are for non-believers, not believers.

This is once again wrong because St. Paul often causes this the angelic language. I have heard people pray in languages that are "real" such as spanish, chinese, and Arabic. I know these people didn't know the language before then. Tongues can be for self-edification but when done in a group or when interpreted it can be powerful prayer.

We know that the Eucharist can save people, putting life into them.




There is many more good points of his book, but these are key points that I thought were similiar to your own post, which was great!

Sadly, I find that most Charismatics don't seem to be able to support their position with the Earliest of Saints, or even the scriptures themselves.

Reza[/quote]

This is wrong, because St. Peter Prophesied, St. Paul spoke in tongues, the Cure D'Ars spoke in tongues, St. Padre Pio, was Charismatic, I can fnd more if you want.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='saintwannabe 777' post='1865690' date='May 12 2009, 07:43 PM']This is wrong, because St. Peter Prophesied, St. Paul spoke in tongues, the Cure D'Ars spoke in tongues, St. Padre Pio, was Charismatic, I can fnd more if you want.[/quote]

I'd like you to give more citation then this on these examples. You could claim that St. Peter was a Charismatic as you may profess to be, but you haven't given much proof of those claims. I could say that St. Peter was really Coptic, yet people would ask me to prove that claim with extensive citation and biblical scriptures, etc. If you say that St. Paul spoke in a gibberish tongue, prove it.

I don't think people have a problem with St. Peter prophesying, because you don't have to be a charismatic to believe that, but prophesying hardly makes him a charismatic.

You can say that I'm wrong, but my quotes gave biblical citation, please disprove me if you believe I'm wrong.

Reza

Edited May 13, 2009 by RezaLemmyng

[saintwannabe 777]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1865693' date='May 12 2009, 09:46 PM']I'd like you to give more citation then this on these examples. You could claim that St. Peter was a Charismatic as you may profess to be, but you haven't given much proof of those claims. I could say that St. Peter was really Coptic, yet people would ask me to prove that claim with extensive citation and biblical scriptures, etc. If you say that St. Paul spoke in a gibberish tongue, prove it.

I don't think people have a problem with St. Peter prophesying, because you don't have to be a charismatic to believe that, but prophesying hardly makes him a charismatic.

Reza[/quote]

[url="http://www.shelovesgod.com/library/article.cfm?articleid=10413"]http://www.shelovesgod.com/library/article...articleid=10413[/url]
[url="http://www.cccrsa.net/files/TheDevotionalGiftofPrayerTongues.pdf"]http://www.cccrsa.net/files/TheDevotionalG...ayerTongues.pdf[/url]

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='saintwannabe 777' post='1865697' date='May 12 2009, 07:49 PM'][url="http://www.shelovesgod.com/library/article.cfm?articleid=10413"]http://www.shelovesgod.com/library/article...articleid=10413[/url]
[url="http://www.cccrsa.net/files/TheDevotionalGiftofPrayerTongues.pdf"]http://www.cccrsa.net/files/TheDevotionalG...ayerTongues.pdf[/url][/quote]

Please don't just post websites because I won't go to them, I'm asking you to prove it, because in truth, I could litter this website with 50 million links too but I wouldn't expect you to read them.

Not to mention one of them was written from an Angelican Bishop or Priest in which is hardly Roman Catholic, not to mention Angelicals disagree on this issue too.

Reza

Edited May 13, 2009 by RezaLemmyng

[saintwannabe 777]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1865702' date='May 12 2009, 09:54 PM']Please don't just post websites because I won't go to them, I'm asking you to prove it, because in truth, I could litter this website with 50 million links too but I wouldn't expect you to read them.

Not to mention one of them was written from an Angelican Bishop or Priest in which is hardly Roman Catholic, not to mention Angelicals disagree on this issue too.

Reza[/quote]

I'm sorry, but I do not like your attitude. Please be charitable. I am not going to sit here and prove this to you. I am 17 years old. My life has been saved by Jesus. I was bullied horribly freshman year and Jesus came to my rescue through the Charismatic Renewal. Honestly, maybe you should go check out a prayer meeting instead of just sitting here and talkign about something you don't know about. Please, I have better things to do than to argue about something that several Popes have approved. Now maybe, I interpreted your post wrong, but I feel that you do not know about the Charismatic Renewal. You are still my bro in Christ and I got love for you my dude and I don't have the time now to prove to you that the Charismatic Renewal movement is of God but I will pray that you will find out that it is.

[MStar]

RezaLemmyng, in response to your post #14:

When St. Paul says to desire the greater gifts, he is referring to the gifts he mentions beforehand. That is why he goes on to say "But I shall show you a still more excellent way" because he is going to go on and tell them about love, which is the greatest thing. Any legitimate charismatic movement should never place the gifts over love, for without love, as your quotes pointed out, any gifts (tongues, prophecy, faith, charity, etc.) are empty and no good. The gifts are for the building up of the Church and so without love of course they are useless.

After the lovely passage on love St. Paul again says "Pursue love, but strive eagerly for the spiritual gifts, above all that you may prophesy. For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to human beings but to God, for no one listens; he utters mysteries in spirit." 1 Cor.14:1-2 This type of tongues is obviously different than the type Peter and the apostles were speaking at Pentecost where all heard them and understood them in their own language, because here Paul is talking about no one hearing you pray. But Paul is not condemning it either, he says we should seek it, he just cautions the Corinthians that it is not the best of the gifts, which I think charismatics would do well to remember.

To finish the above passage, Paul says, "On the other hand, one who prophesies does speak to human beings, for their building up, encouragement, and solace. Whoever speaks in a tongue builds himself up, but whoever prophesies builds up the church. Now I should like all of you to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. One who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be built up." 1Cor.14:3-5 The reason he says this last part is because if one [i]is[/i] praying in tongues so that others hear him, he would be best to interpret what he's saying so that it builds up the church. Otherwise he should just pray in spirit with no one listening, and since in that case you are no longer praying with the whole community that is why it is the least of the gifts. However, no where does Paul say we should not use it or desire it or the other gifts. He says the opposite, we should strive for them. But we should certainly not leave out love.

I can't say much on Confirmation and baptism in the Spirit just now, I'll have to look more into that.