Charismatic Catholics

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='saintwannabe 777' post='1865690' date='May 12 2009, 07:43 PM']This is wrong, because St. Peter Prophesied, St. Paul spoke in tongues, the Cure D'Ars spoke in tongues, St. Padre Pio, was Charismatic, I can fnd more if you want.[/quote]

I'd like you to give more citation then this on these examples. You could claim that St. Peter was a Charismatic as you may profess to be, but you haven't given much proof of those claims. I could say that St. Peter was really Coptic, yet people would ask me to prove that claim with extensive citation and biblical scriptures, etc. If you say that St. Paul spoke in a gibberish tongue, prove it.

I don't think people have a problem with St. Peter prophesying, because you don't have to be a charismatic to believe that, but prophesying hardly makes him a charismatic.

You can say that I'm wrong, but my quotes gave biblical citation, please disprove me if you believe I'm wrong.

Reza

Edited May 13, 2009 by RezaLemmyng

[saintwannabe 777]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1865693' date='May 12 2009, 09:46 PM']I'd like you to give more citation then this on these examples. You could claim that St. Peter was a Charismatic as you may profess to be, but you haven't given much proof of those claims. I could say that St. Peter was really Coptic, yet people would ask me to prove that claim with extensive citation and biblical scriptures, etc. If you say that St. Paul spoke in a gibberish tongue, prove it.

I don't think people have a problem with St. Peter prophesying, because you don't have to be a charismatic to believe that, but prophesying hardly makes him a charismatic.

Reza[/quote]

[url="http://www.shelovesgod.com/library/article.cfm?articleid=10413"]http://www.shelovesgod.com/library/article...articleid=10413[/url]
[url="http://www.cccrsa.net/files/TheDevotionalGiftofPrayerTongues.pdf"]http://www.cccrsa.net/files/TheDevotionalG...ayerTongues.pdf[/url]

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='saintwannabe 777' post='1865697' date='May 12 2009, 07:49 PM'][url="http://www.shelovesgod.com/library/article.cfm?articleid=10413"]http://www.shelovesgod.com/library/article...articleid=10413[/url]
[url="http://www.cccrsa.net/files/TheDevotionalGiftofPrayerTongues.pdf"]http://www.cccrsa.net/files/TheDevotionalG...ayerTongues.pdf[/url][/quote]

Please don't just post websites because I won't go to them, I'm asking you to prove it, because in truth, I could litter this website with 50 million links too but I wouldn't expect you to read them.

Not to mention one of them was written from an Angelican Bishop or Priest in which is hardly Roman Catholic, not to mention Angelicals disagree on this issue too.

Reza

Edited May 13, 2009 by RezaLemmyng

[saintwannabe 777]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1865702' date='May 12 2009, 09:54 PM']Please don't just post websites because I won't go to them, I'm asking you to prove it, because in truth, I could litter this website with 50 million links too but I wouldn't expect you to read them.

Not to mention one of them was written from an Angelican Bishop or Priest in which is hardly Roman Catholic, not to mention Angelicals disagree on this issue too.

Reza[/quote]

I'm sorry, but I do not like your attitude. Please be charitable. I am not going to sit here and prove this to you. I am 17 years old. My life has been saved by Jesus. I was bullied horribly freshman year and Jesus came to my rescue through the Charismatic Renewal. Honestly, maybe you should go check out a prayer meeting instead of just sitting here and talkign about something you don't know about. Please, I have better things to do than to argue about something that several Popes have approved. Now maybe, I interpreted your post wrong, but I feel that you do not know about the Charismatic Renewal. You are still my bro in Christ and I got love for you my dude and I don't have the time now to prove to you that the Charismatic Renewal movement is of God but I will pray that you will find out that it is.

[MStar]

RezaLemmyng, in response to your post #14:

When St. Paul says to desire the greater gifts, he is referring to the gifts he mentions beforehand. That is why he goes on to say "But I shall show you a still more excellent way" because he is going to go on and tell them about love, which is the greatest thing. Any legitimate charismatic movement should never place the gifts over love, for without love, as your quotes pointed out, any gifts (tongues, prophecy, faith, charity, etc.) are empty and no good. The gifts are for the building up of the Church and so without love of course they are useless.

After the lovely passage on love St. Paul again says "Pursue love, but strive eagerly for the spiritual gifts, above all that you may prophesy. For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to human beings but to God, for no one listens; he utters mysteries in spirit." 1 Cor.14:1-2 This type of tongues is obviously different than the type Peter and the apostles were speaking at Pentecost where all heard them and understood them in their own language, because here Paul is talking about no one hearing you pray. But Paul is not condemning it either, he says we should seek it, he just cautions the Corinthians that it is not the best of the gifts, which I think charismatics would do well to remember.

To finish the above passage, Paul says, "On the other hand, one who prophesies does speak to human beings, for their building up, encouragement, and solace. Whoever speaks in a tongue builds himself up, but whoever prophesies builds up the church. Now I should like all of you to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. One who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be built up." 1Cor.14:3-5 The reason he says this last part is because if one [i]is[/i] praying in tongues so that others hear him, he would be best to interpret what he's saying so that it builds up the church. Otherwise he should just pray in spirit with no one listening, and since in that case you are no longer praying with the whole community that is why it is the least of the gifts. However, no where does Paul say we should not use it or desire it or the other gifts. He says the opposite, we should strive for them. But we should certainly not leave out love.

I can't say much on Confirmation and baptism in the Spirit just now, I'll have to look more into that.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='saintwannabe 777' post='1865724' date='May 12 2009, 07:24 PM']I'm sorry, but I do not like your attitude. Please be charitable. I am not going to sit here and prove this to you. I am 17 years old. My life has been saved by Jesus. I was bullied horribly freshman year and Jesus came to my rescue through the Charismatic Renewal. Honestly, maybe you should go check out a prayer meeting instead of just sitting here and talkign about something you don't know about. Please, I have better things to do than to argue about something that several Popes have approved. Now maybe, I interpreted your post wrong, but I feel that you do not know about the Charismatic Renewal. You are still my bro in Christ and I got love for you my dude and I don't have the time now to prove to you that the Charismatic Renewal movement is of God but I will pray that you will find out that it is.[/quote]

I didn't see what I had to say as not being charitable. I simply told you that you should discuss it with me [and the others in this group], rather then post links and tell people to go there and read them.

It's not a matter of "proving me" or "proving you wrong", but rather I was trying to have a conversation with you regarding it, and after you'd posted that St. Peter was charismatic, I simply asked you to support it with scripture, as I have done without telling you to visit articles outside of this website.

Reza

[RezaMikhaeil]

I may have misread that particular scripture, which you were correct regarding but the quote that I'd that supported it, was still clear.

Even if you read the scriptures that came before, I don't see that as proving the Charismatic tongue or belief in "spiritual gifts", maybe you could clarify further.

[quote]"Pursue love, but strive eagerly for the spiritual gifts, above all that you may prophesy. For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to human beings but to God, for no one listens; he utters mysteries in spirit." 1 Cor.14:1-2[/quote]

I don't reject prophesy, I just reject false prophesy, but I don't see why Charismatics have a monopoly on prophesy.

In regards to verse 2:

St. Paul is saying that if someone speaks in tongues, their speaking to God because nobody understands them if it's not interpreted. If you simply cherry pick this one scripture you could interpret it as you'd like, but if you read it in the context of the scriptures that follow, it has a slightly different angle to it. The scriptures that go further make it clear that interpretation is needed and that without it's pointless. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's a charismatic "tongues" sort of venture.

If I were praying in Coptic [which we do during liturgy] and a non-believer decides to join the liturgy, they aren't going to understand correct? Just because they don't understand, doesn't mean that I'm not praying in a tongue that is not understood by myself, its just not understood by them, unless somebody interprets for them, which is what happens, a deacon interprets for them.

Reza

[MStar]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1865770' date='May 12 2009, 09:26 PM']I may have misread that particular scripture, which you were correct regarding but the quote that I'd that supported it, was still clear.[/quote]
That was my bad, I first quoted the first time he said to pursue the gifts, but I was going for the second one

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1865770' date='May 12 2009, 09:26 PM']Even if you read the scriptures that came before, I don't see that as proving the Charismatic tongue or belief in "spiritual gifts", maybe you could clarify further.[/quote]
I have a feeling we need to clarify what we're getting at here. I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. All I said was that Paul encouraged the Corinthians to seek after the gifts of the Spirit (he uses the word [i]charismata[/i]). These are not the fruits of the Spirit talked about in Galatians, they're different. I'm not sure what I'm trying to prove...I guess I'm just pointing out that there's nothing wrong with speaking in tongues or desiring to do so. Sorry if I'm not clear, maybe if you clarify your questions I could give better points?

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1865770' date='May 12 2009, 09:26 PM']I don't reject prophesy, I just reject false prophesy, but I don't see why Charismatics have a monopoly on prophesy.[/quote]
Charismatics don't have a monopoly on prophesy. Anyone who listens to the Spirit and who is given the gift can prophesy. Charismatics just seek it more than many. And, as I've pointed out, it's okay to seek it, St. Paul even tells us to (esp. prophesy).

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1865770' date='May 12 2009, 09:26 PM']In regards to verse 2:

St. Paul is saying that if someone speaks in tongues, their speaking to God because nobody understands them if it's not interpreted. If you simply cherry pick this one scripture you could interpret it as you'd like, but if you read it in the context of the scriptures that follow, it has a slightly different angle to it. The scriptures that go further make it clear that interpretation is needed and that without it's pointless. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's a charismatic "tongues" sort of venture.

If I were praying in Coptic [which we do during liturgy] and a non-believer decides to join the liturgy, they aren't going to understand correct? Just because they don't understand, doesn't mean that I'm not praying in a tongue that is not understood by myself, its just not understood by them, unless somebody interprets for them, which is what happens, a deacon interprets for them.

Reza[/quote]

I think we're basically agreeing (?). If you're praying in Coptic and a non-believer joins in they won't understand you and they will not be able to truly join in prayer with you unless it's translated. But that doesn't make your Coptic prayers pointless by any means. And if you prayed in Coptic within an English speaking community it would not build up the community, but again, your prayers would not be useless. It is the same with tongues when there is no interpreter. I've never experienced tongues, but those who have explained to me that when one prays in tongues with no interpreter it is supposed to be only between you and God (obviously, since there's no interpreter so it can't build up the community) but your prayers are not pointless or invalid just because no one would understand them. You pray aloud in tongues only when there's an interpreter so all can join you in prayer. This is why, when the Bible does talk about tongues, it goes along with an interpreter. And this is why Paul emphasizes to the Corinthians that tongues is the least important of the gifts, because it is usually used for personal edification rather than for the body. (I quoted it before, but you could look again at 1cor14:1-5). I don't think I'm cherry picking the scriptures

And again, the only reason tongues are particularly known among charismatics is because these days they're mainly the ones seeking the gifts. The Christians of the early Church did not consider these "charismatic" or unusual, they were something many people in the Body experienced (not all, of course, I would never argue that every person is given the charisms).

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='MStar' post='1865794' date='May 12 2009, 09:13 PM']That was my bad, I first quoted the first time he said to pursue the gifts, but I was going for the second one [/quote]

It's cool, I sometimes read too fast, or am tired and don't spend as much time thinking about the response as I should.

[quote]I have a feeling we need to clarify what we're getting at here. I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. All I said was that Paul encouraged the Corinthians to seek after the gifts of the Spirit (he uses the word [i]charismata[/i]). These are not the fruits of the Spirit talked about in Galatians, they're different. I'm not sure what I'm trying to prove...I guess I'm just pointing out that there's nothing wrong with speaking in tongues or desiring to do so. Sorry if I'm not clear, maybe if you clarify your questions I could give better points? [/quote]

What I'm saying is that none of the scriptures that I'd witnessed here thusfar, give evidence or testify to the particular sort of tongues that charismatics subscribe to... thou I'd not mentioned the fruits of the spirit, I'm glad that you brought them up.

[code]The fruit of the Spirit is more important for your salvation
than the gifts of the Spirit
St. Paul the Apostle talked about the fruit of the Spirit,
saying: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace,
longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness,
self-control" (Gal.5: 22,23). The Apostle Paul said that love,
which is the first fruit of the Spirit, is greater than faith that can
move mountains (1 Cor.13: 2,13). And the Lord said about
love: "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the
Prophets" (Matt.22: 40).
When the disciples returned to the Lord Jesus joyful over
gifts, He said to them: "Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this,
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that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because
your names are written in heaven" (Lk.10: 20).[/code]

[quote]Charismatics don't have a monopoly on prophesy. Anyone who listens to the Spirit and who is given the gift can prophesy. Charismatics just seek it more than many. And, as I've pointed out, it's okay to seek it, St. Paul even tells us to (esp. prophesy).[/quote]

Do you truely think that it's worth seeking after? I believe in what St. Paul wrote, "set your mind on higher gifts" but I don't believe that means seeking after tongues and such gifts. These gifts cannot save your soul, where as other aspects of our faith can save our souls.

[code]Many people lost their salvation and perished despite
their possession of spiritual gifts
The gifts did not help them and did not save them. Thus the
Lord says: "Many will say to Me in that day, `Lord, Lord, have
we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your
name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will
declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from Me, you who
practise lawlessness!' " (Matt.7: 22,23)
Gifts are not your own merit, therefore there is no
reward for them
Spiritual gifts do not give you salvation. Why then do you
struggle to attain them? They tempt those who seek vainglory
and vanity for themselves, but the great saints, who loved
humility, always escaped from gifts.
One of the fathers said: "If God gives you a gift, ask Him
to give you humility with it to protect it, or ask Him to take
this gift from you."
When the Apostle Paul received many gifts from the Lord,
he said: "And lest I should be exalted above measure by the
abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to
me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above
measure" (2Cor.12: 7). This great Apostle, the man of grace
who was caught up to the third heaven (2Cor.12: 2), was in
jeopardy from the gifts! If there was fear on the Apostle Paul
from spiritual gifts, how much more should the poor youth of
today fear when they pray for gifts, saying that gifts are their
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privilege, and their spiritual counsellors pray for them, laying
their hands on them to receive gifts!
Jacob the Patriarch received spiritual gifts. He received the
blessing of birthright, saw a ladder reaching from earth to
heaven on which the angels of the Lord were ascending and
descending, and saw God Himself and spoke with Him. He
struggled with God and with men, and prevailed (Gen.32: 28).
To protect Jacob from gifts, God touched the socket of his hip
so that his hip was wrenched. God gave Jacob a kind of
weakness in the body to protect him from conceit due to having
gifts.
What is more dangerous than gifts these days is when one
person says to another: "Come, I will commend to you a gift",
or "I will commend to you the experience", lays his hand on
him, and prays to grant him the Holy Spirit or to grant him the
fullness. Strangely enough, even women lay their hands on
people to grant them the Holy Spirit because God sometimes
grants a woman the gift of healing!
But to grant the Holy Spirit is the task of the clergymen,
first practised by the Apostles by the lying on of hands,
then by the clergymen in the Sacrament of Chrismation.[/code]

[code]Are gifts granted or are they requested?
God endows whatever gift He wishes to whomever He
wishes in the time His Divine Wisdom defines, according to His
words: "The kingdom of God does not come with observation"
(Lk.17: 20). Gifts are like the wind that blows wherever it
wishes, "as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith"
(Rom.12: 3). Why are gifts prayed for, then? And why the gift
of Speaking in tongues in particular?
Gifts are not entrusted from one person to another but they
are given by the Will of God and they are the work of His Holy
Spirit.
When the gift of tongues is prayed for, it may be satisfying
the pride of those who seek vainglory. It is an appealing gift for
the old self. It is not appealing to the spiritual person. What is
worse than this is when those who have the gift of tongues
despise and look down upon those who do not have this gift
and declare them to be of a low level, although the Holy Bible
says that the gift of tongues is not for all (1Cor.14). Does this
conceit not lead us to doubt in those who claim to have this
gift?
If a person comes to you and says: "Come, I will commend
to you this experience", tell him: "I do not deserve these gifts. I
have not the meekness of heart that can bear them. If God wills
to give me a gift, He will give me without me asking for it.
Then I will ask Him to give me humility to protect me from
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pride. If God gives me a gift I will not speak about it and I will
not declare it to people so as not to expose myself to spiritual
combats above my measure."
The phrase "earnestly desire the best gifts" does not mean
that we ask for gifts, but that we prepare the heart with purity
and meekness to receive the gifts which are not only miraculous
powers, but also include wisdom, knowledge and faith,
according to the Apostle's teaching (1 Cor.12: 8,9).
If you want to ask God for a good gift, the Lord teaches us
what to ask! He says in the Sermon on the Mount: "But seek
first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these
things shall be added to you" (Matt.6: 33).
We notice that in the Lord's prayer, which He taught us
and which is an exemplary prayer, we do not ask for
gifts.[/code]

Why should we seek after it, if it's not a gift for all?

[code]Speaking in tongues is not a gift for all
We have seen from the aforementioned that God
"distributes to each one individually as He wills" (1Cor.12:
11); "Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is
given to us" (Rom.12: 6) and "as God has dealt to each one a
measure of faith" (Rom.12: 3).
With regard to the gift of Speaking in tongues, the Apostle
plainly says: "Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all
teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Do all have gifts of
hearings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?"
(1Cor.12: 29,30) It is clear from this passage that the gift is not
for all. Therefore even at the time of the Apostles it was not
necessary for every believer to receive the gift of Speaking in
tongues which was not an essential sign to prove the descent of
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the Holy Spirit upon a person. A man can be a saint even
though he does not speak with tongues.
God knows when to give gifts and the reason of giving them.
He gave the gift of Speaking in tongues abundantly at the time
of the Apostles, the beginning of preaching for the sake of
edifying, because it was essential at the time.
Speaking in tongues is not necessary in every age. The Holy
Bible says concerning this: "Whether there are tongues, they
will cease" (1Cor.13: 8). Even in the era of the Apostles there
were conditions for Speaking in tongues. We read some of
these conditions in chapter fourteen of the First Epistle of St.
Paul to the Corinthians:[/code]


[quote]I think we're basically agreeing (?). If you're praying in Coptic and a non-believer joins in they won't understand you and they will not be able to truly join in prayer with you unless it's translated. But that doesn't make your Coptic prayers pointless by any means. And if you prayed in Coptic within an English speaking community it would not build up the community, but again, your prayers would not be useless.[/quote]

Take note that Coptic is a real language, and the speaker understands it, even if there is no translator. In the case of the charismatic tongue, the speaker himself/herself doesn't understand it.

[quote]It is the same with tongues when there is no interpreter. I've never experienced tongues, but those who have explained to me that when one prays in tongues with no interpreter it is supposed to be only between you and God (obviously, since there's no interpreter so it can't build up the community) but your prayers are not pointless or invalid just because no one would understand them.[/quote]

In a Church setting, St. Paul is very clear, if there is no translator to be silent. He's also clear that if nobody [including you] understands it, then it's also not edifying. In order for something ot be edifying, it must be understood. If His Holiness, the Pope himself, were to give a sermon and I didn't understand what he was talking about, would just the sound of his voice be edifying? No, rather it's the words and the meanings behind them that are meant to be edifying, otherwise the Pope would probably not put as much thought into his words [and yes, I believe he puts much thought into his words, God bless him for that].

[quote]You pray aloud in tongues only when there's an interpreter so all can join you in prayer. This is why, when the Bible does talk about tongues, it goes along with an interpreter. And this is why Paul emphasizes to the Corinthians that tongues is the least important of the gifts, because it is usually used for personal edification rather than for the body. (I quoted it before, but you could look again at 1cor14:1-5). I don't think I'm cherry picking the scriptures [/quote]

When I'd mentioned cherry picking, it was in regards to verse-2, singling it out. As I'd mentioned thou, it's important to understand that the tongue/language that I was referencing was a real language, Coptic, while these tongues are not understood by even the speaker himself/herself.

[code]Speaking in tongues should be for edifying the
church
The most important word which characterises the chapter
about the gift of Speaking in tongues (1Cor.14), is the word
edifying. The Apostle mentions it many times and emphasises
it. He says explicitly: "Let all things be done for edification"
(1Cor.14: 26) and "Even so you, since you are zealous for
spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you
seek to excel" (1Cor.14: 12).
For the sake of edifying the church, the Apostle says that "he
who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues"
(v.5) because "he who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but
he who prophesies edifies the church" (v.4). The word
prophesy at that time also meant teaching. The Apostle
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prefers prophesying because "he who prophesies speaks
edification and exhortation and comfort to men" (v.3).
(4) Speaking in tongues should be interpreted
The Apostle says: "Therefore Jet him who speaks in a
tongue pray that he may interpret" (v.13), and adds "But if
there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church" (v.28).
The Apostle's reason is obvious: the edification of the church.
He says: "...unless indeed he interprets, that the church may
receive edification" (v.5). If this edification is not achieved, he
should keep silent, and the phrase `keep silent' is an Apostolic
command. Therefore he who speaks in a tongue must either
speak for the edification of the church or keep silent.
The presence of an interpreter is a testimony that the
Speaking in tongues is sound. Thus the gift of tongues is given
to two persons simultaneously. One is the speaker and the other
the interpreter. Consequently, the Biblical verse: "By the
mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be
established" (2Cor.13: 1), is applied. If speaking in a tongue is
without interpretation, what is its use? What is its use if all
present do not understand the language?
(5) What is the meaning of 'edifies himself'?
To `edify himself' is to be in a certain spiritual state of
the descent of the Ho y Spirit, which is beneficial for the
individual's edification. There are two remarks mentioned by St.
Paul about this state. They are:
(a) The person should keep silent just as in any private
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spiritual state between oneself and God. The Apostle says:
"...let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself
and to God" (v.28). It is a matter between him and God, more
suitable for him to stay in his closet and not in church in front of
people. Thus speaking in a tongue will be a kind of prayer.
Even so:
(b) The mind will be unfruitful; it is just a work of the spirit.
The Apostle says: "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but
my understanding is unfruitful" (v.14). The Apostle could see that
this state should be completed by understanding. The person
should pray in spirit and also with understanding; sing in spirit and
also with understanding. Although the Apostle mentions the
phrase `edifies himself' very cautiously and with remarks, and
points out that it is not a complete edification, yet for the sake of
edification he says: "I thank my God I speak with tongues more
than you all; yet in the church I would rather speak five words
with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten
thousand words in a tongue" (vv.18, 19).
Therefore there is no need for people to strive with all their
might to speak with tongues, believing that this is a great
achievement.
If this is the case of Speaking in tongues as a gift of the Holy
Spirit, what then shall we say when some people claim to speak
with tongues and we are not certain of the genuineness of their
claim?[/code]

[quote]And again, the only reason tongues are particularly known among charismatics is because these days they're mainly the ones seeking the gifts. The Christians of the early Church did not consider these "charismatic" or unusual, they were something many people in the Body experienced (not all, of course, I would never argue that every person is given the charisms).[/quote]

There is unsubstantial evidence that it was the unknown charismatic tongue that was spoken, to say that the tongues that was written about in the Bible is the same as the charismatic is unhistoric at best and down right connecting dots that don't connect at best, in my opinion. The modern charismatic tongues, which another Catholic brother pointed out, wasn't present in the Roman Catholic Church until after it was Protestant. There is no evidence recorded that the Early Church Fathers spoke in it.

There is evidence that montanists used it, but montanists were condemned as heretics, so they don't help the case for the charismatic movement. The Desert Fathers raised people from the dead and are written about very detailed in Holy Tradition, yet still nothing regarding tongues or the charismatic "gifts".

[code]The Apostle's fight against the errors of Speaking in
tongues
The Apostle fought strongly against the tongues which were not
edifying the church and whose owners did not keep silent. He says
that:
(a) The tongues are not beneficial "But now, brethren, if I come
to you Speaking in tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak
to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by
teaching?" (v.6) He describes these tongues as musical
instruments which make indistinctive, unknown and
incomprehensible sounds (vv.7, 8).
(b) The tongues will be spoken into the air. The Apostle says:
"So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to
understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will
bespeaking into the air" (v.9).
(c) Speakers with tongues will be like foreigners. The Apostle
says: "Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I
shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be
a foreigner to me" (v.11).
(d) Speakers with tongues have no fellowship with the church
and do not edify others.
No one can understand the one who speaks with a tongue when
he stands to pray, to give thanks or to bless the Lord. So how can
he enter into a life of sharing with the believers if they do not
understand him? Therefore the Apostle says: "Otherwise, if you
bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the
uninformed say 'Amen' at your giving of thanks, since he does not
understand what you say? For you indeed give thanks well, but
the other is not edified" (vv.16, 17).
(e) Speakers with tongues will resemble the mad. "Therefore if
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the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with
tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or
unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?"
(v.23).
(f) The tongues should be appropriate, in order and without
confusion. The gift of Speaking in tongues filled everyone at the
time of the Apostles, but the Apostle insists that the gift should be
disciplined. He says: "For God is not the author of confusion but
of peace" (v.33) and "If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be
two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret"
(v.27).
(7) Speaking in tongues is a sign for unbelievers
In the Apostle's opinion, believers will benefit from
forthtelling, whereas unbelievers will profit from the tongues
provided that they are interpreted. He says: "Therefore
tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to
unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for
those who believe" (v.22).
Therefore if those who are present in church are believers,
what is the benefit of Speaking in tongues, according to the
Apostle's teaching?[/code]

[MStar]

I'm sorry, I can't address all the points in your post that I would like to, it's too late for me and your post is long. But there are many points I would like to make in regard to it.

1)
This that you quoted:
[quote]The fruit of the Spirit is more important for your salvation
than the gifts of the Spirit
St. Paul the Apostle talked about the fruit of the Spirit,
saying: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace,
longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness,
self-control" (Gal.5: 22,23). The Apostle Paul said that love,
which is the first fruit of the Spirit, is greater than faith that can
move mountains (1 Cor.13: 2,13). And the Lord said about
love: "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the
Prophets" (Matt.22: 40).
When the disciples returned to the Lord Jesus joyful over
gifts, He said to them: "Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this,
that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because
your names are written in heaven" (Lk.10: 20).[/quote]
I'm not sure where this is from but the author of this could be accused of cherry picking (imho). In this passage of Galatians St.Paul is not comparing the fruits of the Spirit to the gifts, he is comparing the fruits of the Spirit to the fruits/works of the flesh. So I don't think it's fair to say one is better than the other, they are not being related to each other in this passage. We've already agreed that love is the greatest of everything, even greater than faith, so I don't see what the problem there is.

2)
[quote]Do you truely think that it's worth seeking after? I believe in what St. Paul wrote, "set your mind on higher gifts" but I don't believe that means seeking after tongues and such gifts. These gifts cannot save your soul, where as other aspects of our faith can save our souls.[/quote]
Yes I truely do think they're worth seeking after. Honestly, I don't really care about tongues much, because St.Paul goes on at great length about how they're actually pretty unimportant without an interpreter, but I think that because the gifts are for the building up of the Church they are extremely important. It is true that you can have the gifts and still lose your soul, and I like the quote you cited: "If God gives you a gift, ask Him to give you humility with it to protect it, or ask Him to take this gift from you." While spiritual gifts indeed do [i]not[/i] give you salvation, that does not make them unimportant. The core and heart of the Charismatic movement is actually not the gifts and definitely not tongues (in my mind these can at times receive to much emphasis in some circles, esp. protestant ones). The heart of the movement is to help draw people close to the heart of God, and it does so in a very powerful way.
[quote]The Renewal exists to help people live a new life in the power of Spirit - not to bring them into something called The Catholic Charismatic Renewal. We are renewed when we open ourselves to God and accept what he is offering us - the fullness of His Holy Spirit, there is no other way. This is God's work, not ours and it is his to control and direct. From [url="http://www.ccr.org.uk/crnature.htm"]http://www.ccr.org.uk/crnature.htm[/url][/quote] I'd encourage you to read that whole letter by the by - it won't answer your questions, but it will give you some ideas of what the Charismatic Catholics are up to
The charismatics do not (certainly should not) seek the gifts for their own glory, ever. If they have listened to the Church and Christ they will know that that is not the gifts purpose. The purpose is so that once they have drawn so close to God and His Spirit they may help others to know Him as well, and they in turn can help others. It creates a wonderful chain of love And it is certainly a powerful way of leading others to God. I don't know since when the desire to lead others to God was a bad thing. It only becomes bad when you neglect God yourself, but the very nature of the charismatic movement is to prevent this by helping each other remain faithful. I really can't see how this is bad.

3)
Obviously, gifts can be requested. Otherwise, as I've already said, Paul would not say, twice, to strive/desire/seek after them. Also, I have never heard the Charismatic movement claim that all must pray in tongues or that tongues is even necessary to the movement of the Spirit. It's a gift like all the rest. I have not heard it used in public either. Like you and Paul say, it is for edification, so if it's not edifying the Church, don't use it in public. But again, there is no reason why one shouldn't pray in tongues in private. The one praying knows what is being said, as does God. Your quote seems to almost argue that praying in private is no good because it's not done in community. But I don't think you could mean that.

[quote]If a person comes to you and says: "Come, I will commend
to you this experience", tell him: "I do not deserve these gifts. I
have not the meekness of heart that can bear them. If God wills
to give me a gift, He will give me without me asking for it.
Then I will ask Him to give me humility to protect me from
pride. If God gives me a gift I will not speak about it and I will
not declare it to people so as not to expose myself to spiritual
combats above my measure."
The phrase "earnestly desire the best gifts" does not mean
that we ask for gifts, but that we prepare the heart with purity
and meekness to receive the gifts which are not only miraculous
powers, but also include wisdom, knowledge and faith,
according to the Apostle's teaching (1 Cor.12: 8,9).
If you want to ask God for a good gift, the Lord teaches us
what to ask! He says in the Sermon on the Mount: "But seek
first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these
things shall be added to you" (Matt.6: 33).
We notice that in the Lord's prayer, which He taught us
and which is an exemplary prayer, we do not ask for
gifts.[/quote]
I don't know where you got this, but I'll have to disagree. If God gives you a gift then you should certainly want the humility to handle it, but isn't it true that God won't give you something you can't handle? Ergo, if I pray for a gift and God gives it to me, I'm going to trust (and pray) that He's given me the means to handle it. I don't know that it matters if you declare it to people (as long as you're not declaring it in pride - that would be bad of course). But whether you declare it or not, you use what God has given you, He didn't give it to you to be hidden but to build up His Church, so you better use it for that! Remember the parables of the servants and the money (can't find it just now, sorry). Also, the last point about the Our Father - it also doesn't tell us to ask for people to be healed, or to pray for other things, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't. The Our Father is a model, not an end-all, pray-only-this-ever prayer. We do ask for things in the prayer, therefore we can conclude that it's okay to ask for things (gifts or whathaveyou).

4)
[quote]Why should we seek after it, if it's not a gift for all?[/quote]
Because St.Paul encourages us to and then we trust God to give us what He thinks should have. And Charismatics know everyone doesn't receive every gift. As for the language thing, I'll have to do some more research into that.

I'd say more, but I'm afraid I may repeat myself. If I missed something important than bring it up again

P.S. I think we're focusing too much on tongues here. You asked about the charismatic movement, of which tongues is a very small, and relatively unimportant part (except to the individual). There are many other charismatic gifts as well (mentioned in your post somewhere), and I'm sure you know, that there are 9 charisms listed in 1 Cor 12:10 and I believe there are others mentioned in other books, but I'd have to find more out about that.

[saintwannabe 777]

I know you don't want me to post links. But I strongly reccomend you read and listen to the Holy Spirit lecture. [url="http://www.davenevins.com/loveofgod/topics/more/holy-spirit_lecture.htm"]http://www.davenevins.com/loveofgod/topics...rit_lecture.htm[/url]
(The rest of the site is not Catholic save for a few parts, it is ecumenical.)

Edited May 13, 2009 by saintwannabe 777

[saintwannabe 777]

And another thing, as a teenager, I know that high school age kids crave for the Charismatic Movement. It has freed so many of us. Now people can say what they want about it. But when I recall how Jesus set me free from self-hate and despair and spoke to me through a Healing Mass, I know that God's hand is upon it. Rez, I'm sorry I seem a little touchy about this subject but my whole family in Africa is Charismatic, and they are the most faithful people I know. I would like to apologize if I've frustrated you in any way. If you would like to read my testimony, I will share it with you, if it would change your mind a little.

[Ziggamafu]

One of the axioms that helped bring me into the Church is "if it is true, it probably isn't new and if it is new, it probably isn't true." The type of charismaticism we are discussing seems very, very new - and its origins are specifically tied to a rebellious Protestantism. I see no evidence of this new charistmaticism in history. I've looked at the hairs of quotes from saints that are so desperately split by those in favor of charismaticism. They are unconvincing to say the least. Not a single quote that I have seen actually references glossolalia; the Charistmatics read glossolalia into words like "jubilation" and "ecstasy" when there is absolutely no reason to do so. It bugs me. They also try to commandeer quotes from the popes in support of a charismatic Church that have absolutely nothing to do with the Neo-Charismaticism that we're talking about. In short, the Neo-Charismaticism of Protestantism that has crept into the Church is new - radically new - and I am therefore of the opinion that it is probably not "true" (in the sense of supernatural origins / revelation). Indeed, the Charismatics sound all too much like Protestants, attempting to defend a radical break from Tradition by implying that, while the Apostles and the "real Christians" of the Early Church got it right, there was silent period of well over 1,800 years until "real Christianity" made a public, widespread reappearance.

[Guest]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1865899' date='May 13 2009, 07:51 AM']One of the axioms that helped bring me into the Church is "if it is true, it probably isn't new and if it is new, it probably isn't true." The type of charismaticism we are discussing seems very, very new - and its origins are specifically tied to a rebellious Protestantism. I see no evidence of this new charistmaticism in history. I've looked at the hairs of quotes from saints that are so desperately split by those in favor of charismaticism. They are unconvincing to say the least. Not a single quote that I have seen actually references glossolalia; the Charistmatics read glossolalia into words like "jubilation" and "ecstasy" when there is absolutely no reason to do so. It bugs me. They also try to commandeer quotes from the popes in support of a charismatic Church that have absolutely nothing to do with the Neo-Charismaticism that we're talking about. In short, the Neo-Charismaticism of Protestantism that has crept into the Church is new - radically new - and I am therefore of the opinion that it is probably not "true" (in the sense of supernatural origins / revelation). Indeed, the Charismatics sound all too much like Protestants, attempting to defend a radical break from Tradition by implying that, while the Apostles and the "real Christians" of the Early Church got it right, there was silent period of well over 1,800 years until "real Christianity" made a public, widespread reappearance.[/quote]

nevermind.

Edited May 13, 2009 by Guest

[Ziggamafu]

Excellent article on Christian glossolalia: [url="http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/17e.pdf"]http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/17e.pdf[/url]