Praying Over Someone

[Resurrexi]

Throughout Catholic history, the concept of "praying over someone" has been almost exclusively reserved for the administration of certain Sacraments and for liturgical blessings. I see no reason why this manner of prayer should ever be used by laypeople, save blessings of children by their parents or other family elders. Why is it that this sign which, since apostolic times, has rarely if ever been used outside of liturgical rites administered by clergy been suddenly taken up by the laity in the last few decades?

[Apotheoun]

Good question Resurrexi! But I am sure that you already know where this new practice originates.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1868151' date='May 15 2009, 03:54 PM']Good question Resurrexi! But I am sure that you already know where this new practice originates.

[/quote]

[saintwannabe 777]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1868151' date='May 15 2009, 05:54 PM']Good question Resurrexi! But I am sure that you already know where this new practice originates.

[/quote]

Are you serious??? You know what guys. A lot of you on this site continue to insult people like me. Honestly, do it. Continue to do it. I will pray for you.

[Resurrexi]

None of us are insulting you. We are asking you to provide historical and theological reasons to support laymen "praying over" others extra-liturgically.

[mcts]

we are all one body in christ. It's not like when someone prays over another person that they're acting as Jesus, anyway. If that person was saying that they were Jesus, then that would be a problem. As it is, though, I just see it as a good way to feel more connected to a person spiritually.

[Apotheoun]

Praying for someone is not the same thing as praying over someone. The former has always been a practice of the Church open to all her members, while the latter has been reserved to those in holy orders, or to those in authority over another person (e.g., parents blessing their children, etc.)

[mcts]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1868208' date='May 15 2009, 07:14 PM']Praying for someone is not the same thing as praying over someone. The former has always been a practice of the Church open to all her members, while the latter has been reserved to those in holy orders, or to those in authority over another person (e.g., parents blessing their children, etc.)[/quote]


why?

[MissyP89]

What is heretical about touching my friend, or my boyfriend's, shoulders when I pray with them? I can understand the concern of attempting to exercise inappropriate authority, but IMO it's all about intent. I see it as a gesture of support.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='mcts' post='1868209' date='May 15 2009, 05:18 PM']why?[/quote]
The Church has always believed that the giving of a true blessing requires sacred authority based upon familial relations, which in the case of a parish priest (or a diocesan bishop) involves a supernatural fatherhood over those in his parish (or diocese), or in the case of an abbess a supernatural motherhood over the sisters in her care. This type of authority is also present by the natural relation of parent to child, and that is why parents can bless their children (although it is important to remember that there is an essential difference between a priestly blessing given by an ordained man and that given by all the others I have mentioned).

So, when a priest during the liturgy blesses the congregation entrusted to him by the bishop, he has the sacred power to do so because he is the spiritual father of all those gathered together in the liturgical synaxis.

Now clearly one lay person is not the spiritual father of another lay person, and so he should not be pretending to be what he is not.

Edited May 16, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='MissyP89' post='1868212' date='May 15 2009, 05:36 PM']What is heretical about touching my friend, or my boyfriend's, shoulders when I pray with them? I can understand the concern of attempting to exercise inappropriate authority, but IMO it's all about intent. I see it as a gesture of support.[/quote]
You can touch people all you like when praying with them (i.e., if they don't mind you doing that), but you lack the spiritual power necessary to pray over anyone (except perhaps your own children or grandchildren).

[CatherineM]

I think it started with EM's. It drives me nuts when they "bless" kids in arms, or people who aren't receiving.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1868224' date='May 15 2009, 05:58 PM']I think it started with EM's. It drives me nuts when they "bless" kids in arms, or people who aren't receiving.[/quote]
I have witnessed that abuse too. It is sad that many Catholics no longer understand their own liturgical, doctrinal, and spiritual tradition.

[mcts]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1868222' date='May 15 2009, 06:51 PM']You can touch people all you like when praying with them (i.e., if they don't mind you doing that), but you lack the spiritual power necessary to pray over anyone (except perhaps your own children or grandchildren).[/quote]


then i think the meaning of "praying over someone" got lost in translation somewhere. When i pray over someone, i just think of someone with their hand on my shoulder or something like that. Not someone necessarily having a "special connection" with the other person.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='mcts' post='1868227' date='May 15 2009, 06:07 PM']then i think the meaning of "praying over someone" got lost in translation somewhere. When i pray over someone, i just think of someone with their hand on my shoulder or something like that. Not someone necessarily having a "special connection" with the other person.[/quote]
Sadly there is a certain "clericalization of the laity" that goes on in the Charismatic movement, which I would attribute to the Protestant theology that forms the foundation of the movement.

[RezaMikhaeil]

I believe all these charismatic "things", are simply replacements of the sacraments.

We used to recieve the holy spirit in christmation, charismatics now say that the evidence that you have the holy spirit its in speaking in tongues, "baptism of the holy spirit".

We recieve the sacrament of annointing oil, now they replace that with "laying hands".

You tell me what's really going on...

[saintwannabe 777]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1868250' date='May 15 2009, 08:29 PM']I believe all these charismatic "things", are simply replacements of the sacraments.

We used to recieve the holy spirit in christmation, charismatics now say that the evidence that you have the holy spirit its in speaking in tongues, "baptism of the holy spirit".

We recieve the sacrament of annointing oil, now they replace that with "laying hands".

You tell me what's really going on...[/quote]

That is not true, baptism of the holy spirit is not a sacrament but a reinforcement of the sacrament of baptism and confirmation. Not every Charismatic has the gift of tongues my friend. Tongues is the least of the gifts. Get your facts straight my dude.

[Resurrexi]

Using the term "baptism of the Holy Spirit" to refer to anything but the Sacrament of Baptism (or Baptism of Blood or Baptism of Desire) is a horrible misapplication of the world. When St. John the Baptist said, "He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost" (Mark 1:8), he was clearly referring to the Sacrament of Baptism, not some phenomenon which was unheard of in Christianity until 20th Century Protestantism.

[saintwannabe 777]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1868336' date='May 15 2009, 11:09 PM']Using the term "baptism of the Holy Spirit" to refer to anything but the Sacrament of Baptism (or Baptism of Blood or Baptism of Desire) is a horrible misapplication of the world. When St. John the Baptist said, "He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost" (Mark 1:8), he was clearly referring to the Sacrament of Baptism, not some phenomenon which was unheard of in Christianity until 20th Century Protestantism.[/quote]

Ok. Think whatever you want.

[saintwannabe 777]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1868336' date='May 15 2009, 11:09 PM']Using the term "baptism of the Holy Spirit" to refer to anything but the Sacrament of Baptism (or Baptism of Blood or Baptism of Desire) is a horrible misapplication of the world. When St. John the Baptist said, "He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost" (Mark 1:8), he was clearly referring to the Sacrament of Baptism, not some phenomenon which was unheard of in Christianity until 20th Century Protestantism.[/quote]

Ok. Think whatever you want.