popestpiusx Posted March 28, 2004 Posted March 28, 2004 What facts have you given? You say nothing in your posts but short and empty one liners. I know you have said nothing to me. That is my point. You ignore any argument against as though it were absurd. READ THE WRITINGS OF THE SAINTS, POPES AND COUNCILS. Study some moral theology then come back and argue.
Trying2BFaithful Posted March 28, 2004 Posted March 28, 2004 Food for Thought: Since 1950, 36% of all executed "criminals" on death row have later been proven innocent. I read this senior year of HS in my theology class. The official Church teaching is that the DP is ONLY acceptable if the perpetrator must be put to death in order to protect society. In many countries, especially in the third world, prison escapes are common and a real threat. In extreme cases, certain individuals must be put to death in order to protect the physical safety of society. In the U.S. today, this is undeniably not the situation. We have the means and police force to house dangerous criminals without escape in maximum security prison. In my mind, there is really no excuse for it in our society unless it is an icon killer like Timothy McVeigh who could have perhaps influenced his "friends" on the outside. The Church hasn't taken a hard stance on the issue mainly because there is a large room for interpretation in the stance. One thing is clear, however, if we are putting someone to death, there has to, at the very least, be not one shred of doubt about guilt. This is unfortunately not typical. Most cases of capital punishment are abominations. Pure and simple.
popestpiusx Posted March 28, 2004 Posted March 28, 2004 36%??? Whatever. If you are going to make a claim as outlandish as that, you need to provide some sources.
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 28, 2004 Posted March 28, 2004 [quote name='popestpiusx' date='Mar 27 2004, 10:58 PM']36%??? Whatever. If you are going to make a claim as outlandish as that, you need to provide some sources.[/quote] Not enough theology for you huh? Did you even read the article I posted? God Bless You Jason
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 28, 2004 Posted March 28, 2004 (edited) The article proves my statements! Does this upset you? Or do I need to type out the article so I have more Theology! Edited March 28, 2004 by Jason
IcePrincessKRS Posted March 28, 2004 Posted March 28, 2004 The CCC paragraph in the article is the exact came one that I quoted on the previous page. [quote]The Pope states that "…the nature and extent of punishment must be carefully evaluated and decided upon, and ought not go to the extreme of executing the offender except in cases of absolute necessity: in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society."[/quote] I think this refers back to the sort of instance my question is based on--when a criminal proves to be a tremendous threat to society in and out of the big house. If a criminal is such a threat that even the guards and other inmates going through rehabilitation (which respects their human dignity) in the facility, it is my opinion that such a case could fall under the instance of being impossible to defend society against that evil and capitol punnishment would be acceptable.
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 28, 2004 Posted March 28, 2004 You failed to read the part saying[b][u] repaying violence for violence is wrong [/u][/b]and will lead to disaster. And that the Pope wished the abolishment of the death penalty and that the Church sees no need of it, since we have the recources for correctional centers! God Bless, Jason
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 28, 2004 Posted March 28, 2004 (edited) [quote][b]In the Catholic Church, teaching on the death penalty has developed over time[/b]. For centuries, the Church accepted the right of the state to take a life in order to protect society. But over time and in the light of new realities, Catholic teaching now recognizes that there are non-violent means to protect society and to hold offenders accountable. [u][b]Church teaching now clearly argues for the abolition of capital punishment[/u][/b].[/quote] Bolds added by me! God Bless Jason Edited March 28, 2004 by Jason
IcePrincessKRS Posted March 28, 2004 Posted March 28, 2004 I didn't fail to read any part. The Church teaches that in SOME cases the DP is allowable. The case I suggested is one where correction and rehabilitation is of no avail and keeping the prisoner is only bringing harm to others who rehab. IS aiding. What I suggested is that such a case falls within Church teaching on the DP. Your claim that the DP is totally wrong and/or against Church teaching is inaccurate.
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 28, 2004 Posted March 28, 2004 (edited) [quote]The words and actions of Pope John Paul II in St. Louis brought renewed attention to the debate on the death penalty. It provided renewed moral support to those that have worked tirelessly over the last several decades for an end to capital punishment and placed the Catholic Church even more squarely on the side of those calling for its abolition.[/quote] Is not the Pope the Head of the Church? You must of skipped this part. And I am NOT GOING AGAINST THE TEACHING OF THE CHURCH!!! Little judgemental statement there huh! I have given you the facts, do with them what you will, but don't tell me I'm not following the Church!!!!! That's your opinion. Read the statement above. I follow the Vicar of Christ! Who is the visiable leader of Christ's Catholic Church! Peace Edited March 28, 2004 by Jason
IcePrincessKRS Posted March 28, 2004 Posted March 28, 2004 The Catechism does not forbid the death penalty. It wasn't a judgement statement. The Catechism is Church teaching is it not? The CCC clearly states that in SOME cases the DP is ALLOWED. To claim the Church does not teach this is inaccurate.
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 28, 2004 Posted March 28, 2004 I never said that. Read the above statement!
IcePrincessKRS Posted March 28, 2004 Posted March 28, 2004 Jason, you have said repeatedly that the DP is wrong, that the need for it is "non-existant", etc. That is NOT what the Church teaches. You specifically said that the Church teaches that there is no need for the DP. I'm pointing out where the Church teaches that in some cases (albeit rare cases) it IS needed and allowed.
popestpiusx Posted March 28, 2004 Posted March 28, 2004 First mistake: The article is written by Cardinal Mahoney. Second mistake: This is a speech by a Cardinal, not by the Pope or anyone with any authority outside his diocese. Third mistake: The speech is delivered to the "Catholics Against Capital Punishment" conference. That's three and I have not even started on the article yet.
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 28, 2004 Posted March 28, 2004 (edited) CCC 2267 [quote]Today in fact, as a consequence of the possibilites which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm---without definitively taking the possability of redeeming himself---the case in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity [b][u]"are very rare, if not practically non-existent. "[/u][/b][/quote] That NON- EXISTENT is from the CCC. I quoted it earlier! Is it not. [quote][b]In the Catholic Church, teaching on the death penalty has developed over time. For centuries, the Church accepted the right of the state to take a life in order to protect society. But over time and in the light of new realities, Catholic teaching now recognizes that there are non-violent means to protect society and to hold offenders accountable. [u]Church teaching now clearly argues for the abolition of capital punishment.[/u][/b][/quote] This states right here that over time the Catholic Church has relized to try to stop capitol punishment. You simply cannot take these facts and tell me that I am against the Church. I know what the CCC says. I follow what the CCC say and Love Pope John II. What he says goes period, if he says it's time to stop it, Amen! Are you trying to tell me to ignore the Popes instructions here to try to stop capital punishment? hmmm? Peace Edited March 28, 2004 by Jason
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 28, 2004 Posted March 28, 2004 [quote name='popestpiusx' date='Mar 27 2004, 11:51 PM'] First mistake: The article is written by Cardinal Mahoney. Second mistake: This is a speech by a Cardinal, not by the Pope or anyone with any authority outside his diocese. Third mistake: The speech is delivered to the "Catholics Against Capital Punishment" conference. That's three and I have not even started on the article yet. [/quote] Who are you to judge who writes what. Doesn't have enough Theology for you? Putting yourself in a high seat huh!
IcePrincessKRS Posted March 28, 2004 Posted March 28, 2004 "Practically non-existent" does not equal "non-existant." You can go forth and pursue the abolition of the DP all you want, I never said there was anything wrong with that. I also never said that you were going AGAINST the Church. What I DID say was that what you are saying is Church teaching was inaccurate. When the Church makes an ammendment to the CCC and says the DP is wrong and not permitted under any circumstances THEN say its wrong on all grounds. Until then you cannot claim that the Church teaches something when the opposite is there in writing for all the world to see. Even the article you posted says that the allowance for the DP is LIMITED, not abolished by the Church's teaching. I love the Pope as much as you do. Likewise I follow the CCC, and I've made the point several times now that in rare cases the DP is allowed by the Church, as stated in the CCC.
IcePrincessKRS Posted March 28, 2004 Posted March 28, 2004 I have used the phrase "inaccurate" a couple times now, its beginning to irk me that you have said at least twice now that I am accusing you of going against Church teaching. Saying something inaccurate is not the same as turning away from and going against Church teaching.
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 28, 2004 Posted March 28, 2004 I can't get the point across because I think you are for it in cetain cases and I'm not. That doesn't make me "inaccurate" either. If I'm "inaccurate" then you are saying that the Pope is "inaccurate" because he feels the same way I do. The Pope said it! I agree with it! If you want to say we are "inaccurate" thats fine! I'm not trying to fight about this, I was trying to help! You are firm in your opinion and I am in mine. Mercy is the school that I'm from (The Most Blessed Sacrament) it is mercy I will show. If the Church says put someone to death, I can't go against it. But it hasn't said that! But like I said before the Church blossoms in doctrine, it doen't change. I am not wrong for being against the death penalty either! The CCC doesn't tell you that you have to be for it. Peace
IcePrincessKRS Posted March 28, 2004 Posted March 28, 2004 The Pope did not say that the Church officially teaches against the DP did he (if he has I missed it)? He encouraged us to put a stop to it. HE stands against it, but the Church officially does not stand completely against it in all cases (yet). I respect your decision to oppose the DP. What I said is that its inaccurate to say the Church teaches the DP is 100% wrong. When She does I will change my stance. It is not inaccurate to oppose the DP, its inaccurate to say the Church officially teaches that its 100% wrong. (How many times in how many different ways do I have to say that? lol I feel as if I've said it a million times now. :haha:) Just because I don't agree with you 100% doesn't mean that I don't understand where you are coming from. I believe I do, I just find problem with a few of the things you have said about what the Church teaches.
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