Death Penalty

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

May I ask:

Where does this 'right to life' come from anyways? Where are we given the right to have life? Much less to say who can do what?

If we follow Biblical teachings, then we cannot condemn the Death Penalty. In both the new and old testaments, the death penalty is used by both humans and God Himself.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Jason' date='Mar 29 2004, 02:35 PM']


I'm Catholic and I already did?! [/quote]
A catholic simply stating that it is wrong is not what I (or anyone else I know) would call a Catholic defence. I am Catholic as well and am defending the death penalty. That fact in itself does not make it a catholic defence. What are we using to defend our positions? This is where the arguments rise or fall. Church teaching or emotion?? I am providing 2000 years of Church teaching in favor of the death penalty. What does the other side have??

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]In the Catholic Church, teaching on the death penalty has developed over time. For centuries, the Church accepted the right of the state to take a life in order to protect society. But over time and in the light of new realities, Catholic teaching now recognizes that there are non-violent means to protect society and to hold offenders accountable. Church teaching now clearly argues for the abolition of capital punishment.[/quote]

What about this?

[Catholic_4_Life]

[quote name='Jason' date='Mar 29 2004, 01:36 PM'] Thats ok we will be twins, he! he! [/quote]
Too Late!!

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='Catholic_4_Life' date='Mar 29 2004, 01:47 PM'] Too Late!! [/quote]
he!he! Good one I Like!!!!!

[Livin_the_MASS]

popestpiusx, I already went through this with I P I feel the way I feel. It is not going against the Catholic Church to not be for the death penalty, I'm against it!

I will not post no more on this subject so like Mrs. Bro. Adam said they can have time to talk it over.

God Bless,
Jason

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

[quote name='Mrs. Bro. Adam' date='Mar 29 2004, 01:38 PM'] May I ask:

Where does this 'right to life' come from anyways? Where are we given the right to have life? Much less to say who can do what?

If we follow Biblical teachings, then we cannot condemn the Death Penalty. In both the new and old testaments, the death penalty is used by both humans and God Himself. [/quote]
You know....I have yet to see [b]one[/b] of my questions answered....

[Catholic_4_Life]

[quote name='Mrs. Bro. Adam' date='Mar 29 2004, 01:54 PM'] You know....I have yet to see [b]one[/b] of my questions answered.... [/quote]
I'm not the greatest are answering doctornal (correct statement?) questions, therefore I don't feel comfortable in answering. I hope someone does though...I am interested in hearing what they say!

[Brother Adam]

[quote]May I ask:

Where does this 'right to life' come from anyways? Where are we given the right to have life? Much less to say who can do what?

If we follow Biblical teachings, then we cannot condemn the Death Penalty. In both the new and old testaments, the death penalty is used by both humans and God Himself.[/quote]

Where is the death penalty used under the New Covenant?

Who gave the order to kill in the Old Testament and how did it take place?

What about Jesus and the adulteress?

Edited March 29, 2004 by Brother Adam

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Jason' date='Mar 29 2004, 02:46 PM']
What about this? You state, "But over time and in the light of new realities, Catholic teaching now recognizes that there are non-violent means to protect society and to hold offenders accountable. Church teaching now clearly argues for the abolition of capital punishment."
I ask, where does Church teaching argue for the abolition of capital punishment? What new realities? Did man change? Did criminals change? Even in the olden days they had prisons that were virtually inescapable (Island prisons etc.).

You have merely stated that there has been a development of Church teaching according to new realities. Provide some evidence to back up these assertions.
[/quote]
What about what? You make an assertion without backing it up.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 29 2004, 04:51 PM']



What about Jesus and the adulteress? [/quote]
See Carson's paper on page 2 of this thread.

[Livin_the_MASS]

Does Catholic Doctrine not blossom as the ages pass?

Agree

Disagree?

[popestpiusx]

I just answered that same question on the limbo debate room.

[popestpiusx]

For the sake of those who are not in that debate, I will answer it again.
It depends what you mean by "blossom". Legitimately develops? Yes. Essentially changes? No."

Legitimate development does not entail essential change. There must be some continuity between the new and the old teaching.

In this case, as in the limbo case, we are not talking about continuity but (if you are right about what the Church teaches, which you are not) complete reversal. That is not development. But as has ben stated ad nauseam, the Church does not teach that the death penalty is evil. It never has, and never will. It is a matter of natural law, and has been commanded by God at various times in history. God cannot do nor command what is intrinsically evil. It would be a contradiction of his nature.

[allis-challmers]

[/QUOTE]the way i see it death penalty is a way of living eye for an eye.[QUOTE]


I am not really sure what passage that this is under but I remember somewhere in the gospels that Jesus addresed this and said that was the old law and he came and because he was the fufullment of the law and he said that he gave us a new comandment to love your nieghbor. I think that this applys to this subject very well. You can't love what ever this person has done or even like it. but you need to realize that this person is a child of God and We need to love him or her. We don't need to be killing them but praying for them. As long as they are alive even if they are in prision there is a chance for a conversion. Also I am totally pro life and was always under the impression that ment all life. That God was the only person that had the athority to terminate a life. I apply that to the unborn, elderly, everyone in between, and even the undesirable people of the world. I have no idea what there purpose is but I am not going to say that they should be killed befor God decides to do it. THat is my side of it :infant:

[popestpiusx]

Do you not make an exception for self-defence? If so, then you can already see that there are exceptions. A just war is another. It is not always and everywhere forbidden to take the life of another human being. As I have said several times already, if you are correct then you must address the fact that the Church has ALWAYS acknowleged and defended the right of the state to execute (and still does).

[MrsFrozen]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Mar 29 2004, 02:18 PM'] Jason, and Mrs. Frozen,

Please read the article I posted.  For your convenience here it is again:
[url="http://www.ncregister.com/Register_News/031902rut.htm"]http://www.ncregister.com/Register_News/031902rut.htm[/url] [/quote]
I am not for the complete ban of capital punishment. As the Church teaches, there are instances, when ALL ELSE is exhausted, that capital punishment would be considered valid. Is this the case with those on death row in the US today? No! They are on death row for basically one reason: revenge.

Would I wish death on someone who killed someone I loved? Yes, I probably would. Then I'd go to confession, because I would be wishing to commit the same crime he committed. Just because I am not for the death penalty does NOT mean that I don't believe murderers deserve punishment. On the contrary, as I stated before, I believe they should be put in solitary confinement with bread and water, a Bible to read, and no one but a priest to talk to. Without the possibility of parole. Trust me, I have been accused of being inhumane for believing this!

My priest taught a class on the death penalty. Bottom line, the death penalty is almost NEVER necessary, and the ends never justify the means.

GOD HAS THE RIGHT TO TAKE LIVES. WE DO NOT. If we did, Jesus would have said, "Love your enemies, but by all means, take their lives as they have."

God bless.

Edited March 30, 2004 by MrsFrozen

[MrsFrozen]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Mar 29 2004, 02:30 PM'] This completely ignores the constant teaching of the Church. I suppose we are to conclude that St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Bernard of Clairvoix, countell other saints and doctors, as well as Popes and Councils were not pro-life. What a revelation!!

Can someone plese address this question from a Catholic standpoint? That is to say, can someone please defend their anti-death penalty position using the actual teachings of the Church instead of their own emtion driven assesment (as valuable as that may be)? [/quote]
I clarified what I believe in my second post. As taught by my priest, it is the Catholic standpoint. Capital punishment is almost never necessary. The ends do not justify the means. Self-defense is a different story completely and is not capital punishment.

[MrsFrozen]

[quote name='Mrs. Bro. Adam' date='Mar 29 2004, 02:38 PM'] May I ask:

Where does this 'right to life' come from anyways? Where are we given the right to have life? Much less to say who can do what?

If we follow Biblical teachings, then we cannot condemn the Death Penalty. In both the new and old testaments, the death penalty is used by both humans and God Himself. [/quote]
Hi, Mrs. Can you give me some Bible verses where Jesus condones capital punishment?

Thanks and God bless.

[amarkich]

This "debate", if it can even be called such, is becoming, if it has not already become, ludicrous. Those who advocate the modernist concept of condemning the death penalty or calling it an extraordinary circumstance are deviating from the constant teaching of the Church and have yet to give any support from the teaching of the Church to justify their emotionally driven, left wing ideology. The truth of the matter is that the Pope's personal opinion or even an official statement from the Pope which is not made to bind the Church is irrelevant in any matter if it is different from the constant teaching and Tradition of the Church, which is true in this case. Don't get me wrong; I love the Pope. I had a quite expensive picture of him that I bought myself (I'm 17) above my bed. The reason it is being moved is that I was given for my birthday (on Friday) a picture of Saint Joseph, my Confirmation Saint, so it is only fitting that he be given pride of place above my bed. He is a Saint after all. It should be recognized, however, that just because I love that Pope and have pictures of him does not mean that I reject the fact that he can in fact be wrong about things when he is speaking his personal opinion, not speaking on behalf of the Church and not making any kind of binding statement (not to say that even such a case as this is always infallible). The truth is that the modern concept which rejects the government's authority and duty to establish justice by using the death penalty is false and is completely unsupported by Tradition. It is sickening to think that people will try to use the Bible (of all things) to support their anti-death penalty beliefs. We must be careful not to be like the protestants who will take the belief of Sola Scriptura and then try to use individual verses or incidents to support their false claims. It is clear that the Church, the Bible, and Our Lord Himself all support the death penalty (not to mention all the Saints and Popes). This is another issue, but Saint Thomas Aquinas goes as far as to say that heretics should be cut off from the Church by excommunication and should be cut off from the world by death. This is clear support of the death penalty not only for civil offenders but also for heretics who scandalize others with their erroneous opinions. The most brilliant human to walk the face of the earth wholeheartedly supported the death penalty, so please spare me the modern philosophy that enlightens (Enlightenment) the darkness (Middle Ages) of the past. Modern philosophical theories will not suffice in deciding the answer to the question on the death penalty. I ask that one person give some evidence from the teaching of the Church and the Tradition of the Church that would even suggest that the death penalty is some extraordinary event or that it should be abandoned altogether. God bless.