George Tiller Shot To Death At Wichita Church

[ironmonk]

[b]The only difference between killing a baby up to nine months old and an unborn baby is location.[/b]


We must ask ourselves, [b]what would we do if it was legal to take a baby up to nine months old to a butcher and have the child ran through a meat grinder...[/b] that is what is happening with the unborn.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Brother Vinny]

[quote name='ironmonk' post='1880039' date='Jun 1 2009, 12:52 AM'][b]The only difference between killing a baby up to nine months old and an unborn baby is location.[/b]


We must ask ourselves, [b]what would we do if it was legal to take a baby up to nine months old to a butcher and have the child ran through a meat grinder...[/b] that is what is happening with the unborn.


God Bless,
ironmonk[/quote]

I agree. So why is this guy who took justice into his own hands the exception rather than the rule? If the ministers of God's vengeance (to wit, the government, see Romans 13) have unjust laws, does it not behoove the ruled to put in place new ministers?

I'm of the opinion that democracy is inherently broken, and any system that tries to incorporate democracy (such as a democratic-republic like ours) will inherit its brokenness.

So what are we to do? What does the Church say we ought to do?

Edited June 1, 2009 by Brother Vinny

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Brother Vinny' post='1880053' date='Jun 1 2009, 02:08 AM']I agree. So why is this guy who took justice into his own hands the exception rather than the rule? If the ministers of God's vengeance (to wit, the government, see Romans 13) have unjust laws, does it not behoove the ruled to put in place new ministers?

I'm of the opinion that democracy is inherently broken, and any system that tries to incorporate democracy (such as a democratic-republic like ours) will inherit its brokenness.

So what are we to do? What does the Church say we ought to do?[/quote]

The problem with the Church saying it's ok for us to save the unborn by killing the killers is that it would create chaos, there are those who would use it as an excuse to kill, and there are those who are weak minded and could be fooled into killing an innocent person. Having the (un)civil leadership govern it is the only way to ensure some order.

We live in a Republic, the foundation is not broken. The major problem in this regard has not been the Legislative branch, it has not been the abuse of power by the Judiciary Branch of government. The Legislative and Judiciary are only the minor problem... The major problem is the people and how they have been dumbed down by the school system and fed lies via Hollywood... people have been fooled into falling for Hollywood writers scripting their shows and brainwashed them using Bandura's proven techniques, starting back in the 1960's. The problem is the people who are lazy and do nothing and the people who are evil and push things like abortion on society. People need to stand up and fight for what is right and just.

[b]Sirach 4:28[/b]
Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you.


What we have to do is help others draw the conclusion that abortion is murder.
Most people ignore facts and want to cling to "being" right, even if they are wrong. "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still"...

How to get them to wake up to the facts?

Ask them questions....

"Where does life begin?"
- some say 'who am I to know', then look at science: DNA, and humans do not grow if they are not alive.

"Does life magically begin at birth?"
- if life does not magically begin at birth, then abortion is murder


What we need to do is remove every abortion supporter from public office and from the bench.

What we need to do is make it a capital crime to perform abortions and women that have them should get 25 years to life in prison.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[Angel*Star]

I have had discussions with a Catholic who would agree life begins at conception. He then said he agreed with the commandment Thou Shall not Kill. However, he added the word "except" at the end. Apparently it is okay in the minds of some people it is okay to kill unborn babies in times of bad economies. I totally disagree. It does not matter what the state of the economy. It just dawned on me the word economy ends with the word "ME". That is our trouble in this country. We think it is all about ME, MYSELF and I. This man also told me abortion is here to stay so get used to it. God help us if we ever get used to killing unborn or born people!

We are all about control. Little is left to faith and trusting in God. I don't believe abortion is here to stay. There will be young people who say enough is enough. However, I am afraid it will be when we only have God and everything else (including Phatmass) is taken away. I have tried to impress upon my children: know your faith. They can take everything away, but not your faith! They can kill you, but never can they take your faith away. We must be strong and keep our eyes on the cross knowing God wins in the end.

God bless our nation! Have mercy on our souls!

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1879279' date='May 31 2009, 01:35 PM']A murderer has been murdered. Live by the sword and you shall likely die by it.[/quote]
this is exactly what i thought when i heard the news he had been murdered...

"as you live so shall you die..."

[kujo]

[quote name='ironmonk' post='1880039' date='Jun 1 2009, 01:52 AM'][b]The only difference between killing a baby up to nine months old and an unborn baby is location.[/b]


We must ask ourselves, [b]what would we do if it was legal to take a baby up to nine months old to a butcher and have the child ran through a meat grinder...[/b] that is what is happening with the unborn.


God Bless,
ironmonk[/quote]

Surely, doling out this justice we seek should not include taking this man's life. That is not our job. He must be prayed for and ministered to. But violence and murder are, as has been previously stated, counterproductive and antithetical to our PRO-[b]LIFE[/b] cause.

[quote name='Brother Vinny' post='1880053' date='Jun 1 2009, 02:08 AM']I agree. So why is this guy who took justice into his own hands the exception rather than the rule? If the ministers of God's vengeance (to wit, the government, see Romans 13) have unjust laws, does it not behoove the ruled to put in place new ministers?

I'm of the opinion that democracy is inherently broken, and any system that tries to incorporate democracy (such as a democratic-republic like ours) will inherit its brokenness.

So what are we to do? What does the Church say we ought to do?[/quote]

First off, we are not a democratic republic. We are a REPUBLIC with democratic institutions. Remember [i]"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. And to the [b]REPUBLIC[/b], for which it stands..."[/i]

Secondly, I really don't remember being told that it was my job to be a "minister of God's vengeance." Where does our Catholic faith require that of us? When did we become a people who act on behalf of GOD in this matter?

[dominicansoul]

i hate the way the media is spinning this.... tiller is fast becoming a hero, a martyr...

...and I just have to say.... when the media speak of this one incident as "abortion related violence," the irony is suffocating...

[kujo]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1880208' date='Jun 1 2009, 10:15 AM']i hate the way the media is spinning this.... tiller is fast becoming a hero, a martyr...

...and I just have to say.... when the media speak of this one incident as "abortion related violence," the irony is suffocating...[/quote]

Wurd.

[allis-challmers]

[quote]i hate the way the media is spinning this.... tiller is fast becoming a hero, a martyr...

...and I just have to say.... when the media speak of this one incident as "abortion related violence," the irony is suffocating...[/quote]

this man was behind many killings and the public opinion is that we should feel sorry that he is dead!! we should be soorry for all the bad publicy that this gives the pro life cause. this is the opostite of what pro life is about.

[StColette]

Prayers for his soul. He needs them more than most.

[kujo]

[quote name='allis-challmers' post='1880221' date='Jun 1 2009, 10:30 AM']this man was behind many killings and the public opinion is that we should feel sorry that he is dead!! we should be soorry for all the bad publicy that this gives the pro life cause. this is the opostite of what pro life is about.[/quote]

We should mourn the loss of any human life and hope that he had the opportunity to repent for his sins.

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
i think obama is overreacting:
"The murder of Doctor George Tiller is an abhorrent act of violence, and his family is in our thoughts and prayers at this tragic moment. Federal law enforcement is coordinating with local law enforcement officials in Kansas on the investigation of this crime, and[b] I have directed the United States Marshals Service to offer protection to other appropriate people and facilities around the nation.[/b] The Department of Justice will work to bring the perpetrator of this crime to justice. As a precautionary measure, we will also take appropriate steps to help prevent any related acts of violence from occurring.

as the curt jester says:
[quote]Yet it is a abhorrent act of violence,. Now imagine if George Bush in the wake of the Seattle Synagogue shootings has ordered U.S. Marshals to cover all Synagogues. The media would certainly have seen this as a wild overreaction. In that case a single Muslim had done the atrocity and people credited as a lone incident and not that we would see Muslims across the county suddenly attacking Synagogues. But this is exactly what the Obama administration has done. "Related acts of violence" obviously means we can expect those murderous crazy pro-lifers to be taking up target practice against abortion doctors.

I tweeted earlier that it would take no time at all before they initiated plans against pro-lifers and surely this is just the start. For them this killing which has been condemned by every pro-life groups gives them carte blanche for even more onerous protections surround aborturaries. Already our rights our violated by bubble zones which would occur around any other source for demonstrations. They have their excuse now am I am afraid things our going to get much worse in regards to our freedom to protest the murder of innocents. I hope I am wrong and overreacting myself. But this act by the Attorney General scares me in how imprudent it is. The idea that this goes beyond one kook is ridiculous. Though for them abortion is the most sacred thing there is and must be protected at the cost of "freedoms."

In the aftermath of 911 people went out of their way to not blame every Muslim. But you can bet pro-lifers will not be treated as such by the media. They won't mind profiling the Hell out of pro-lifers. We are all guilty by association in their eyes. Remember before they wanted to come after us with laws used to fight organized crime and went after pro-life hero Joe Scheidler for years under the Clinton administration. Be prepared for the coming persecution. I pray I am totally wrong.[/quote]

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
cmr has this update:
[quote]Abortion advocates are wasting little time in attacking pro-lifers. Says Life News: Saying that bringing the person who killed Tiller to justice is "not enough," NOW called on the Justice Department and the Department of Homeland Security to "root out and prosecute as domestic terrorists and violent racketeers the criminal enterprise that has organized and funded criminal acts for decades."[/quote]

PP are the ones that should be investigated for their shady practices

[socalscout]

It got to where I couldn't stand to look at the little bodies anymore" - Dr. Beverly McMillan, when asked why she stopped performing abortions.

"Nobody wants to perform abortions after ten weeks, because by then you see the features of the baby, hands, feet. It's really barbaric." - abortionist quoted in M.D. Doctors Talk About Themselves, by John Pekkanen,

Former abortionist, Anthony Levatino, M.D., says, "I want the general public to know that the doctors know that this is a person, this is a baby. That this is not some kind of blob of tissue . . ."

Former abortion counselor, Nita Whitten, says, "It's a lie when they tell you they're doing it to help women, because they're not. They're doing it for the money."

Former abortion counselor, Debra Henry, says, "We were told to find the woman's weakness and work on it. The women were never given any alternatives. They were told how much trouble it was to have a baby."

Former abortionist, Joseph Randall, M.D., says, "The picture of the baby on the ultrasound bothered me more than anything else. The staff couldn't take it. Women who were having abortions were never allowed to see the ultrasound."

[size=4]What if the above quotes were true about Tiller? Could we justify the actions taken against him? I’ll be honest, I am not weeping for him and I cannot help but feel a little relief of the news however terrible it is. I cannot and do not want to believe that killing him was moral or is what Christ would have us do but I can’t help how I feel.

Either way prayers are in order. [/size]

[dominicansoul]

i have mixed emotions...

i am terribly sad that this man may very well be suffering in the torments of hell right now...

but at the same time, I am feeling worse over the fact that his murder will become a battlecry against those who fight so valiantly to save babies...

and obama is already leading the charge... (which doesn't suprise me in the least...that punk...)

what the murderer of this murderer didn't think about was how the media, planned parenthood and the right-to-kill proponents will use this for their own advantage... regardless of what the intent of this act was, it is lost to the idea that this was an "anti-abortion" attack...

[ironmonk]

[quote name='kujo' post='1880204' date='Jun 1 2009, 10:03 AM']Secondly, I really don't remember being told that it was my job to be a "minister of God's vengeance." Where does our Catholic faith require that of us? When did we become a people who act on behalf of GOD in this matter?[/quote]

The issue is not about dealing out God's vengeance, granted some use this point of view. The issue for many of us is defending the needy. When looking at the Catechism and Bible's teachings on both murder, just war, and abortion, it can easily be argued that to protect babies, it is justified to kill the person about to kill the child. The logical flow is there. If one abortion doctor kills only four babies a day in a work week, in a year he would have killed (with a blender) over 250 innocent babies. Easy to see how someone could be motivated to saving babies. According to the Catholic Church, the greatest proportional reason to base our votes on is the lives of the innocent unborn. Second is family, and third is social justice. The killing of an abortionist is the equivalent of a German killing an Auschwitz Nazi in WWII. Too bad more Germans didn't stand up and kill the Auschwitz Nazi's... maybe they would have saved more of the Jews before the end of the war.

[b]Proverbs 31:8[/b]
Open your mouth in behalf of the dumb, and for the rights of the destitute;
[b]9[/b]Open your mouth, decree what is just, [b]defend the needy [/b]and the poor!

We are to defend the needy.

[b]Who else is more needy than an innocent baby?[/b]

[b]What we need to do:[/b]
[list=1]
[*]We need to convince people that life is the first and foremost issue, as taught by the Church.
[*]We need to oust every anti-life political leader and judge.
[*]We need to elect only pro-life people.
[*]Providing abortion should be made a capital crime.
[*]Having an abortion needs to be treated like any other murder case.
[/list]


I'm not saying I completely agree with the killing of the butcher, but I understand how someone would want to save babies.

God Bless and help that 51-year-old man from the Kansas City, Kansas.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[rizz_loves_jesus]

[quote name='ironmonk' post='1880039' date='Jun 1 2009, 12:52 AM'][b]The only difference between killing a baby up to nine months old and an unborn baby is location.[/b]


We must ask ourselves, [b]what would we do if it was legal to take a baby up to nine months old to a butcher and have the child ran through a meat grinder...[/b] that is what is happening with the unborn.


God Bless,
ironmonk[/quote]

The thing is, though, murder of a born child is already illegal, while abortion is legal. We need to work to make abortion illegal. In order to do that, we must win people over to the pro-life side. We can't do things like this, it's just a huge setback to the ultimate illegalization of abortion.

Edited June 1, 2009 by rizz_loves_jesus

[ironmonk]

The motive for Tiller's death is currently unknown. The police have a suspect, yet have not released any statements on why.

The media is spinning this to vilify anyone who respects life.

Man's laws are our attempt to bring about and keep justice.

[b]Is there a difference between the killing of Tiller and a Auschwitz Nazi by a German?[/b] They are in essence doing the same thing. The [b]Nazis were unjust aggressors [/b]just as [b]abortionist doctors are unjust aggressors on innocent babies[/b]. Both the [b]Nazi and the abortionist did/do things legally[/b]. Hitler was elected.


[u][b]Main point: We don't know if the Tiller's killer did it to protect innocent babies.[/b][/u]

God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited June 1, 2009 by ironmonk

[Hassan]

[quote name='ironmonk' post='1880427' date='Jun 1 2009, 02:57 PM']Is there a difference between the killing of Tiller and a Auschwitz Nazi by a German? They are in essence doing the same thing. The Nazis were unjust aggressors just as abortionist doctors are unjust aggressors on innocent babies. Both the Nazi and the abortionist did things legally. Hitler was elected.


God Bless,
ironmonk[/quote]


If you really believed that, and wern't a coward, you'd be actively fighting. Yet here you are just blowing hot air on the internet.

At least that's how I see it.

[VoTeckam]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1880429' date='Jun 1 2009, 04:02 PM']If you really believed that, and wern't a coward, you'd be actively fighting. Yet here you are just blowing hot air on the internet.

At least that's how I see it.[/quote]


I agree with Hassan. If the man who murdered Tillar was doing the right thing by ridding the world of an evil man by walking into a building and shooting him then shouldn't you be striving to do the same? Do you not want to do the will of God?

I [s]suppose[/s] hope that the reason you do not walk around killing abortionists is beacuse in your heart lives the Holy Spirit and that Spirit prevents you from taking a life. The holy spirit does not mislead. Tiller's murderer lacked such guidance.