Just Want To Vent

[VoTeckam]

[quote name='Mrs. Bro. Adam' post='1914416' date='Jul 8 2009, 03:38 PM']This is what Catholics United for the Faith have written about the postures during Mass.

[url="http://www.cuf.org/FaithFacts/details_view.asp?ffID=253"]Postures During Mass[/url]
Notice the reasons given for standing instead of kneeling.[/quote]


I would guess tha tmost people here do in fact kneel during the consecration. The issue is that if a Bishops decides that standing the perfered posture (which is perfectly within his rights Terra has pointed out) then the faithful in that diocese are being no less reverent by standing than you are by kneeling in your church.

Sorry, but Catholics United for the Faith is much lower on my list of authoritative sources than the GIRM.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Mrs. Bro. Adam' post='1914416' date='Jul 8 2009, 01:38 PM']This is what Catholics United for the Faith have written about the postures during Mass.

[url="http://www.cuf.org/FaithFacts/details_view.asp?ffID=253"]Postures During Mass[/url]
Notice the reasons given for standing instead of kneeling.

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/STAND.TXT"]An excerpt from an article written from EWTN:[/url][/quote]
I'm sorry. Where does it say you should disobey your bishop's determination? Or that people who follow the direction of priest, deacon, or lay minister in this regard are being irreverent?

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

I never said it did

I did post these links to show what kind of reasons the standing/sitting would replace kneeling.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Mrs. Bro. Adam' post='1914420' date='Jul 8 2009, 12:51 PM']I never said it did

I did post these links to show what kind of reasons the standing/sitting would replace kneeling.[/quote]
Ok ....

Have I said anything that contradicted that? I mean, great if you're now arguing my position.

I've never said kneeling was not the optimal position. But I have consistently taken issue with your assertion that people who stand during consecration at the direction of their leaders -- or because of their own determinations for the reasons listed in sources I have quoted and in the one you just quoted -- are being irreverent.

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

Perhaps it was a misunderstanding? I never remember seeing any reasons being posted as to why a bishop would direct a people to stand instead of kneel.

The point I was arguing was about those who stand for reasons other than what are provided (lack of room, etc). As I stated very early on in this thread is that kneelers are provided for those who cantor, and my objection was taking against those who are not kneeling while they cantor even though those kneelers are provided.

Another thing that I argue against are those who stand because it shows "unity", when that is not a reason ever given to change the stance of kneeling to standing.

[CatherineM]

As someone who can not physically kneel, and has great difficulty standing for their entire Consecration, I do have one observation. I've been in dioceses where kneeling is the norm, and now where standing is. Where kneeling is the norm, I actually feel less out of place. When kneeling or sitting, we are all at the same height. Here, half stand in obedience to our Archbishop's wishes, and half (the elderly mostly) kneel out of habit, and I have trouble seeing. Sitting when everyone else is kneeling, at least I can see the altar. When half the people in front of me are standing, I can't see the altar.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Mrs. Bro. Adam' post='1914424' date='Jul 8 2009, 01:03 PM']Perhaps it was a misunderstanding? I never remember seeing any reasons being posted as to why a bishop would direct a people to stand instead of kneel.[/quote]
I believe I've posted the link to the GIRM twice now, and it was referenced several times before that. The GIRM does not outline specific reasons that bishops might issue such a directive, because bishops are allowed some degree of lattitude in their dioceses on this topic. At least for the moment.

As for the misunderstanding, your objection was against more than cantors. You responded to Catherine's post on the Canadian bishops’ determination that standing, not kneeling, will be the posture employed in Canada by saying:
[quote name='Mrs. Bro. Adam' post='1911827' date='Jul 5 2009, 04:33 PM']What a lack of respect [/quote]
and later:
[quote name='Mrs. Bro. Adam' post='1911895' date='Jul 5 2009, 06:34 PM']Makes me miss the days where true reverence was seen in the Mass...by all...[/quote]

Even with regard to cantors, they might have entirely good reasons for not kneeling. And even if their reasons are not so great, the fact that they don't kneel does not mean they are being irreverent.

[quote name='Mrs. Bro. Adam' post='1914424' date='Jul 8 2009, 01:03 PM']Another thing that I argue against are those who stand because it shows "unity", when that is not a reason ever given to change the stance of kneeling to standing.[/quote]
Well, let's go back to the GIRM. Again.

From 42:
[quote]A common posture, to be observed by all participants, [b]is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy[/b]: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.[/quote]

And again from 43 (2nd time it's been quoted):
[quote]With a view to a [b]uniformity [/b]in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, [i]the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives[/i] according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.[/quote]
In a given celebration [b]even if it is a divergence from the liturgical norm[/b] we are to obey the direction of the deacon, priest, or lay minister [b]for the sake of unity[/b]. Now, I'm sure if you have problems with the determination made you can address that after the Mass (respectfully), but as has been stated already this divergence does not affect the validity of the Mass. So, it is better to follow direction and address concerns later than to diverge from that direction solely because you do not agree with it.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1914412' date='Jul 8 2009, 12:31 PM']Well,
I am not making this stuff up. I provided the link and everything.



If you disagree, please provide some other source that is more authoritative than the GIRM on the subject of kneeling during consecration. I'm totally open to correction.[/quote]
ha ha, no, i just read too fast. i still don't understand why a lay minister. they haven't been 'endowed' with any special authority, right? whereas even a deacon has authority granted to him by a bishop.

[quote name='VoTeckam' post='1914417' date='Jul 8 2009, 12:43 PM']I would guess tha tmost people here do in fact kneel during the consecration. The issue is that if a Bishops decides that standing the perfered posture (which is perfectly within his rights Terra has pointed out) then the faithful in that diocese are being no less reverent by standing than you are by kneeling in your church.[/quote]
no, i would love to kneel, but i'm obedient to my bishop by standing.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1914467' date='Jul 8 2009, 03:00 PM']ha ha, no, i just read too fast. i still don't understand why a lay minister. they haven't been 'endowed' with any special authority, right?[/quote]
I think it's for the purpose of unity. I read this as applying when we're in the middle of celebrating the Mass. I'm sure we've all been in situations where someone has goofed up and done something out of the ordinary; this seems to say that it's better that we obey in the moment for the sake of keeping things moving smoothly rather than making a scene by going our own way. This keeps the focus on Jesus rather than on us. When we're going our own way and acting out of sync with everyone else, even if we're "right" liturgically speaking, it can cause distraction for those around us. I think it can be a sacrifice of sorts to swallow our objections for the sake of those around us.

I think it would also apply in a situation where a priest/bishop has directed a lay minister to give a certain instruction.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Mrs. Bro. Adam' post='1914406' date='Jul 8 2009, 01:19 PM']How the judgments flow.... [/quote]
hello, pot.

[quote name='VoTeckam' post='1914417' date='Jul 8 2009, 01:43 PM']Sorry, but Catholics United for the Faith is much lower on my list of authoritative sources than the GIRM.[/quote]
amen.

[quote name='Mrs. Bro. Adam' post='1914420' date='Jul 8 2009, 01:51 PM']I never said it did

I did post these links to show what kind of reasons the standing/sitting would replace kneeling.[/quote]
That still doesn't defend you claiming irreverence on anyone's behalf when they are more closely following the instructions in the GIRM than you. You create more scandal by scoffing and raising hell than you do by simply following the priest and speaking with him in private about your concerns at a later time.

[quote name='Mrs. Bro. Adam' post='1914424' date='Jul 8 2009, 02:03 PM']Perhaps it was a misunderstanding? I never remember seeing any reasons being posted as to why a bishop would direct a people to stand instead of kneel.[/quote]
As Terra has already mentioned, you need not know the reason for a bishop's decision, nor could anyone explain to you why each has chosen what he has. Bishop's are given that authority for a reason and you are to be obedient to his authority when there is not grave reason to oppose.

[quote name='Mrs. Bro. Adam' post='1914424' date='Jul 8 2009, 02:03 PM']Another thing that I argue against are those who stand because it shows "unity", when that is not a reason ever given to change the stance of kneeling to standing.[/quote]
You show a lack of unity, an act against the GIRM, when you do not follow the norm. Unless there is a grave reason to go against the flow of the congregation acting on the instruction of a lay minister, deacon, priest, or bishop, you are creating more scandal and are at fault for that. Perhaps we should all scowl at you and whine about your irreverence.

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1914448' date='Jul 8 2009, 02:41 PM']I believe I've posted the link to the GIRM twice now, and it was referenced several times before that. The GIRM does not outline specific reasons that bishops might issue such a directive, because bishops are allowed some degree of lattitude in their dioceses on this topic. At least for the moment.[/quote]
Said so eloquently. Thank you, Terra.

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1914448' date='Jul 8 2009, 02:41 PM']As for the misunderstanding, your objection was against more than cantors. You responded to Catherine's post on the Canadian bishops’ determination that standing, not kneeling, will be the posture employed in Canada by saying:

and later:

Even with regard to cantors, they might have entirely good reasons for not kneeling. And even if their reasons are not so great, the fact that they don't kneel does not mean they are being irreverent.[/quote]
You took the words right out of my mouth.

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1914448' date='Jul 8 2009, 02:41 PM']Well, let's go back to the GIRM. Again.

From 42:
[quote]A common posture, to be observed by all participants, [b]is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy[/b]: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.[/quote]

And again from 43 (2nd time it's been quoted):
[quote]With a view to a [b]uniformity [/b]in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, [i]the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives[/i] according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.[/quote]
In a given celebration [b]even if it is a divergence from the liturgical norm[/b] we are to obey the direction of the deacon, priest, or lay minister [b]for the sake of unity[/b]. Now, I'm sure if you have problems with the determination made you can address that after the Mass (respectfully), but as has been stated already this divergence does not affect the validity of the Mass. So, it is better to follow direction and address concerns later than to diverge from that direction solely because you do not agree with it.[/quote]
Thank you, again, Terra.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1914476' date='Jul 8 2009, 02:07 PM']I think it's for the purpose of unity. I read this as applying when we're in the middle of celebrating the Mass. I'm sure we've all been in situations where someone has goofed up and done something out of the ordinary; this seems to say that it's better that we obey in the moment for the sake of keeping things moving smoothly rather than making a scene by going our own way. This keeps the focus on Jesus rather than on us. When we're going our own way and acting out of sync with everyone else, even if we're "right" liturgically speaking, it can cause distraction for those around us. I think it can be a sacrifice of sorts to swallow our objections for the sake of those around us.

I think it would also apply in a situation where a priest/bishop has directed a lay minister to give a certain instruction.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
i'm not disagreeing with you, i just wonder how we're supposed to tell when a priest/bishop has given a lay minister authority to do something? would it be a case of a lay minister administering a parish? or someone on an office staff? i guess this just confuses me. i mean, are we to trust someone because they say so?

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1914586' date='Jul 8 2009, 05:05 PM']+J.M.J.+
i'm not disagreeing with you, i just wonder how we're supposed to tell when a priest/bishop has given a lay minister authority to do something? would it be a case of a lay minister administering a parish? or someone on an office staff? i guess this just confuses me. i mean, are we to trust someone because they say so? [/quote]
I think that the likelihood of not having a deacon or priest to rely upon in cases such as these would be slim to none but the Church is pretty thorough and gives us guidelines for even the most extreme cases.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1914586' date='Jul 8 2009, 05:05 PM']+J.M.J.+
i'm not disagreeing with you, i just wonder how we're supposed to tell when a priest/bishop has given a lay minister authority to do something? would it be a case of a lay minister administering a parish? or someone on an office staff? i guess this just confuses me. i mean, are we to trust someone because they say so? [/quote]

A lay administrator of a parish without a resident priest is given authority from their bishop. They just can't say mass. We went over it last semester, and I can't for the life of me remember the term for it off the top of my head.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1914586' date='Jul 8 2009, 07:05 PM']+J.M.J.+
i'm not disagreeing with you, i just wonder how we're supposed to tell when a priest/bishop has given a lay minister authority to do something? would it be a case of a lay minister administering a parish? or someone on an office staff? i guess this just confuses me. i mean, are we to trust someone because they say so? [/quote]

From my understanding it would apply more to situations where a priest was unavailable for daily Mass (for example) and there was a Communion service and Liturgy of the Word in place of an actual Mass. In that case you'd be following the "leadership" of the deacon or lay minister who was directing the service. We recently had that exact scenario play out when we went to a daily Mass, our DRE led the service and we followed his instruction on when to stand, sit, kneel, sing, etc. I wouldn't just do whatever parish office staff told me to, it would have to be within certain circumstances where their authority to make that decision was apparent.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' post='1914613' date='Jul 8 2009, 04:20 PM']From my understanding it would apply more to situations where a priest was unavailable for daily Mass (for example) and there was a Communion service and Liturgy of the Word in place of an actual Mass. In that case you'd be following the "leadership" of the deacon or lay minister who was directing the service. We recently had that exact scenario play out when we went to a daily Mass, our DRE led the service and we followed his instruction on when to stand, sit, kneel, sing, etc. I wouldn't just do whatever parish office staff told me to, it would have to be within certain circumstances where their authority to make that decision was apparent.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
gotcha. thanks everyone for helping me figure this out. lol. man, you'd think i'd just become Catholic or something!