Why Does God Hide Himself?

[Lounge Daddy]

I tend to think that if God showed Himself, he would (oddly enough) be demonized by a lot of people.
So many times, less is more. Less is better.

[Gregorius]

God is demonized by many people here right now. Revealing Himself certainly would not help the issue...

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1933009' date='Jul 27 2009, 11:22 AM']I tend to think that if God showed Himself, he would (oddly enough) be demonized by a lot of people.
So many times, less is more. Less is better.[/quote]

Hmm... like the Crucifixion?

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1933004' date='Jul 27 2009, 08:59 AM']Like a consecration?


To the original question, the heart of the matter is love. God wants our sacrifice, our obedience, and our prayers, but he wants them to be expressions of love. If we regard God as simply a fact, our hearts remain cold and uninspired; but when we encouter him as a communion of three divine persons, we can know God personally and truly love him. If God reveals himself to all of mankind, he has forfeited our opportunity to love him out of heartfelt desire. Instead, we may just obey him because he's God and it's not like there's another God out there. That's not a healthy and fulfilling relationship.[/quote]

very well said

[mortify]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1933000' date='Jul 27 2009, 08:39 AM']What is supposed to "happen?"[/quote]

Some sort of response. There was a pillar of fire that led the Israelites away from Egypt, why are these miracles so rare nowadays? It seems we must look to the past for such extraordinary events.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='mortify' post='1933518' date='Jul 27 2009, 11:48 PM']Some sort of response. There was a pillar of fire that led the Israelites away from Egypt, why are these miracles so rare nowadays? It seems we must look to the past for such extraordinary events.[/quote]

I went through a phase several years ago when I wanted to see something miraculous. By coincidence, my cousin invited me to a Catholic charismatic youth retreat. I know charismatic stuff is controversial, but this was a good group that prayed the Mass reverently, adored the Eucharist, and simply allowed the Holy Spirit to work without peer pressure or any sense that we needed to be "validated" by a gift of the Spirit. Nothing happened to me, but I witnessed the Spirit work in others -- not just in doing "cool" stuff, but truly giving people what they needed to grow past some hurt and heal or to rediscover joy. And there was no mistaking the love shared among that group centered around Christ and the Church. Since that experience, I've really had no need or desire to witness extraordinary or miraculous events, except the desire for conversion among friends whose hearts are hardened towards the Gospel.

Don't know if a charismatic retreat would be the answer in your case, but I'm sure if you take your questions/desires to God, he knows what to provide. Another thing to keep in mind is that even in Israelite history there were times when miracles were rare. The Israelites were slaves in Egypt for 400 years praying for God to rescue them before that pillar of fire lead them away -- and how did they respond?

There was also a period of I think 400 or 700 years between the Babylonian exile and Christ when miracles were rare. 1 Samuel 3:1 also refers to a time when "the word of the LORD was rare" before God raised up Samuel. It's entirely possible that our society and culture have grown too cold towards the Truth during our time. Still, Lourdes and Fatima are relatively recent events.

Regardless, whether such miracles occur or not, the greatest miracle we have until Christ returns. For those who have eyes to see, it happens at every Mass. Other miracles may offer visual evidence, but even they can be denied or rejected -- God pulled out all the stops with one impressive miracle after another to redeem the Israelites from slavely, and they pawned it off for a golden calf at the first sign of difficulty. In the Eucharist, we need to accept the miracle of Christ's Presence with eyes of faith because that truly is the only way any miracle is accepted.

Edited July 28, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='mortify' post='1933518' date='Jul 27 2009, 11:48 PM']Some sort of response. There was a pillar of fire that led the Israelites away from Egypt, why are these miracles so rare nowadays? It seems we must look to the past for such extraordinary events.[/quote]

Back then, there was a simpler faith too.

In the 8th Century, in tiny village in Italy called Lanciano, a priest starts to have doubts of the Real Presence, during the Consecration the bread and wine physically turned into body and blood, countless scientists have examined it and determined it is flesh from a heart and blood normal blood. If you go to Italy you can see this beautiful miracle.

[url="http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html"]http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html[/url]

Miracles still do happen, but not as frequently as they once had

Edited July 28, 2009 by Theologian in Training

[Sirklawd]

God doesnt want to "rule" over the world and force people to believe. This is why he doesnt crack open the sky and stand over us in an undeniable display of his existence and power. He wants an intimate relationship with each of us. We are not humans and God. We are each and everyone one of us, on a personal level, and God. His desire for us is not merely to believe in him, but to love him as he loves us. The Eucharist is the ultimate source of this love for us while we are on this earth because its him, offering everything he is and has, to us, in love.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1933009' date='Jul 27 2009, 10:22 AM']I tend to think that if God showed Himself, he would (oddly enough) be demonized by a lot of people.
So many times, less is more. Less is better.[/quote]

I've thought about that.

If a non-believer witnessed an apparition or miracle of some sort, would they necessarily become a believer?

It seems plausible to think that the miracle possible could be attributed to some other explanation or they would treat the miracle as ghosts having fun or come to some other inappropriate response.




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[mortify]

How does hiding promote sincere worship/love?

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='mortify' post='1934449' date='Jul 29 2009, 12:24 AM']How does hiding promote sincere worship/love?[/quote]

Who said He was hiding in the first place?

[Angel*Star]

[quote name='mortify' post='1933518' date='Jul 27 2009, 10:48 PM']Some sort of response. There was a pillar of fire that led the Israelites away from Egypt, why are these miracles so rare nowadays? It seems we must look to the past for such extraordinary events.[/quote]

Miracles happen every day to each and everyone of us. Are our eyes open to seeing the miracle?

Ever see a newborn? How did two cells produce a complicated body?

Did a parking space ever open just when you needed it? Laugh if you must, but God cares about even the smallest of our problems. I agree, we don't always get "what we want when we want it", but that doesn't mean God isn't there. Maybe it means we aren't.

[Gregorius]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1933782' date='Jul 28 2009, 09:08 AM']Back then, there was a simpler faith too.

In the 8th Century, in tiny village in Italy called Lanciano, a priest starts to have doubts of the Real Presence, during the Consecration the bread and wine physically turned into body and blood, countless scientists have examined it and determined it is flesh from a heart and blood normal blood. If you go to Italy you can see this beautiful miracle.

[url="http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html"]http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html[/url]

Miracles still do happen, but not as frequently as they once had[/quote]
I've heard about this. I also heard a tale of Pope St. Gregory the Great doing a miracle consecration when there was a non-believer attending the Mass. Awesome stuff.

Since the miracle has been confirmed, would it then be possible to get our Lord's DNA if the flesh or blood was still in good condition? I'm not trying to be disrespectful but it would be most interesting to know.

[Gregorius]

[quote name='Angel*Star' post='1934544' date='Jul 29 2009, 12:18 AM']Miracles happen every day to each and everyone of us. Are our eyes open to seeing the miracle?

Ever see a newborn? How did two cells produce a complicated body?

Did a parking space ever open just when you needed it? Laugh if you must, but God cares about even the smallest of our problems. I agree, we don't always get "what we want when we want it", but that doesn't mean God isn't there. Maybe it means we aren't.[/quote]

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1934151' date='Jul 28 2009, 06:25 PM']If a non-believer witnessed an apparition or miracle of some sort, would they necessarily become a believer? [/quote]

"If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead." -Luke 16:31

[quote name='mortify' post='1934449' date='Jul 29 2009, 12:24 AM']How does hiding promote sincere worship/love?[/quote]

Well, God isn't hiding so much as we are hiding from him. Remember it was Adam and Eve who hid from God. We know we are not holy. God knows we cannot be in His Presence. It's both mercy and justice that we are separated from God in this life. The Good News is this life will end.

But what I was trying to get earlier is that we choose in this life whether to believe in God, love Him, and obey Him. Either way, we can still enjoy many blessings. We are not compelled by God either way, though He does pursue us and invite us to know Him. However, after we die, our opportunity and freedom to choose is also dead: God will be revealed and that will be either Heaven or Hell, depending on our relationship with God.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Sirklawd' post='1934137' date='Jul 28 2009, 09:00 PM']God doesnt want to "rule" over the world and force people to believe. This is why he doesnt crack open the sky and stand over us in an undeniable display of his existence and power. He wants an intimate relationship with each of us. We are not humans and God. We are each and everyone one of us, on a personal level, and God. His desire for us is not merely to believe in him, but to love him as he loves us. The Eucharist is the ultimate source of this love for us while we are on this earth because its him, offering everything he is and has, to us, in love.[/quote]

You say God doesn't want to rule over us, but why then does he dictate the rules for us? If all he wants is that we love him, then why does he threaten us with his eternal hate if we fail to do so? If he's not willing to display his existence to us, then why would he expect us to believe? If he could save millions of people from eternal suffering simply by showing himself, then what other conclusion can we make from it other than that he doesn't care? And if God doesn't care about our suffering, then how could we love him? If God truly loves us, then why is he only showing us cold indifference?

[Hassan]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1934859' date='Jul 29 2009, 02:20 PM']"If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead." -Luke 16:31[/quote]

What about Thomas?



[quote]Well, God isn't hiding so much as we are hiding from him. Remember it was Adam and Eve who hid from God. We know we are not holy. God knows we cannot be in His Presence. It's both mercy and justice that we are separated from God in this life. The Good News is this life will end.[/quote]

I thought God visited Abraham? Furthermore individuals were able to remain in Christ's presence.

[quote]But what I was trying to get earlier is that we choose in this life whether to believe in God, love Him, and obey Him. Either way, we can still enjoy many blessings. We are not compelled by God either way, though He does pursue us and invite us to know Him. However, after we die, our opportunity and freedom to choose is also dead: God will be revealed and that will be either Heaven or Hell, depending on our relationship with God.[/quote]

That's a pretty unjust set up.

[Hassan]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1934859' date='Jul 29 2009, 02:20 PM']"If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead." -Luke 16:31[/quote]

What about Thomas?



[quote]Well, God isn't hiding so much as we are hiding from him. Remember it was Adam and Eve who hid from God. We know we are not holy. God knows we cannot be in His Presence. It's both mercy and justice that we are separated from God in this life. The Good News is this life will end.[/quote]

I thought God visited Abraham? Furthermore individuals were able to remain in Christ's presence.

[quote]But what I was trying to get earlier is that we choose in this life whether to believe in God, love Him, and obey Him. Either way, we can still enjoy many blessings. We are not compelled by God either way, though He does pursue us and invite us to know Him. However, after we die, our opportunity and freedom to choose is also dead: God will be revealed and that will be either Heaven or Hell, depending on our relationship with God.[/quote]

That's a pretty unjust set up.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='Gregorius' post='1934569' date='Jul 29 2009, 02:44 AM']I've heard about this. I also heard a tale of Pope St. Gregory the Great doing a miracle consecration when there was a non-believer attending the Mass. Awesome stuff.

Since the miracle has been confirmed, would it then be possible to get our Lord's DNA if the flesh or blood was still in good condition? I'm not trying to be disrespectful but it would be most interesting to know.[/quote]

if you could get the DNA from there, one would think you could also get it from another miracles. im sure you see where this is going. then you could next to definitely prove either that it was a miracle --or a stealthy done hoax alterantive, depending on how far reasonably fetched this could be, if no doubt no stealth, then miracle.
andor prove one of an assortment of claimed miracles are true or not.
you could also prove jesus' lineage. who would be related to him etc. political implications = huge.
you could prove whether he had a real father or not, maybe. rubbing against the virgin birth, but. i tend to believe virgin birth, but i have nothing definitive to bind me to that belief.
the implications don't stop there, im sure

i think the DNA is too damaged in most things to tell. eg, the shroud of turin has enough to tell AB etc, but not sure if DNA. there's a book on this, but didn't even mention the simple point.
they say the miracle at lanciano still bleeds from time to time. if that's true, it could be tested. if it's true, might not even be, but. they do say there's studies on it, i guess. (one of many reasons i'm drawn to the catholic and/or orthodox church, for anyone wonderin

Edited July 30, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[Hassan]

[quote name='Sirklawd' post='1934137' date='Jul 28 2009, 05:00 PM']God doesnt want to "rule" over the world and force people to believe.[/quote]

He seems to rule over heaven.

Don't the saved spend their time praising God in The Book of Revelation?