Why Does God Hide Himself?

[Hassan]

[quote name='zunshynn' post='1938299' date='Aug 1 2009, 08:21 PM']But why? Why do you think that is essentially necessary? That doesn't make sense. Why does the magnitude of a decision inherently change the nature of what it means to make a decision?[/quote]


I shouldn't have said to be free, I should have said for them to be fully culpable for it.



[quote]If you don't believe the world was created ex nihilo, what do you suggest it was created from? What materials were used, and how did they come to be? And how did it happen that the world came into existence at precisely the right moment... to such a degree that if it had been so much as 1/16th of a second off, it would have combusted? How did every species of animal come into being with a similar method of procreation? Why are there not "transitional" species on earth at the moment. How is it that the planet we live on is the only one in our solar system that has the capablility of fostering life forms? Why is it that[/quote]

Hawking has come out with an hypothesis regarding the creation of the universe ex nihilo. Because if it didn't we would not be here. All species are transitional species. Because it's the only one in the solar system that we know of which can support life. Simply because that happens to be the case doesn't mean there must be a reason why.




[quote]But why is that unjust, if he is the creator.[/quote]

So what if he's the creator? Does being the creator of another being give you license to inflict upon them whatever arbitrary, barbaric actions you please?

[quote]We were created, according to Catholic theology, to know God and to love him and to be with him for all eternity. He's given us the freedom to reject him. But if God is what Catholics believe Him to be, namely the creator of all things who is goodness itself, then rejection of him is an extreme injustice... a much more extreme injustice than you could propose that a creator could have caused his creatures... We owe him honor and love because he created us and that's why he created us. If we choose not to cooperate with our very reason for existence than there is no reason why He should be obligated to lessen the consequences. We make an extreme choice to love God, or not to love God. The consequences simply correlate. Why should he be obligated to make the consequences less extreme when the difference between the choice we make is extreme? He is under no obligation to make a middle ground. He owes us nothing. On what grounds would he?[/quote]

On the grounds that we are self aware being with hopes, dreams and aspirations of our own.

Go created us so we could worship him? What sort of narcissism is that?

"Worship me, love me, devote yourself to me fully. If you dare do otherwise I feel free to abandon you for all eternity to the horrors of hell!"

I don't see why such a petty God, if he existed, deserves any veneration.

[quote]All of the suffering in hell is the result of being cut off from God, from love, because He is love, from joy, because he is joy, from life, because he is life. It would be like tearing off your skin. You are meant to have skin... If you tear it off, it is going to be painful, because it's supposed to remain intact.[/quote]



[quote]The punishment is self-inflicted, a direct consequence of tearing your skin off.[/quote]


No it is not. He makes the decision. You say we decide because we choose to fulfill his requirements or not but that doesn't work. He brought us into creation, he created the radical dichotomy of options.

I force you between two stark alternatives. Either you devote yourself totally to me or I kill you. If you choose not to devote yourself totally to me and I kill you I would hardly get away with saying that your death was "self inflicted"

[Hassan]

[quote]In the same way, we are meant to be with God. When we are not, it is going to hurt. It's not that he selects all these arbitrary punishments to inflict on someone just to hurt them for doing something wrong. The quotes from Aquinas and the church fathers only reinforce that. Which ones suggest that God punishes people for the sake of just punishing them?[/quote]

Then why does he punish them? Yes, they greatest punishment of hell is the absence of God but with that come accidental corporal punishment right? What is the point of these punishments if there is no possibility of redemption?







[quote]These punishments are the result of having not fulfilled one's reason for existence. Not something that God goes out of his way to make anyone feel.[/quote]

Did he not determine what the reason for our existence would be and what the consequences for failing to obey his will would be?

[quote]When you look back on any decision, you will naturally reflect on that. It is extreme because it was an extreme choice. Not fulfilling one's reason for existence is extreme, by its very nature. Even in something as simple as an object. If I have a pen, the purpose of my pen is to be able to write with it. If my pen is not able to write, it is useless as a pen. Throwing it out if it doesn't work, and keeping it if it does, are the extreme consequences of fulfilling, or not fulfilling, its purpose of being. I could keep it even if it doesn't work, but there's no purpose.[/quote]

So if God's beloved children don't fulfill what he deems to be the purpose of their existence within the set of time he appoints for them then they are analogous to defective trash? I just read below and see that you don't loke that analogy after all and yet it seems to be pretty sport on with what you are proposing.


God, of his own volition, decided to create me. He then appointed a purpose on my life. I am to love, honor and venerate him with all my heart, mind and soul. He sets out a predetermined period of time (Just how long I am not told) for me to meet these requirements. If I meet his demands I am rewarded with heaven. Where I get to love honor and venerate him for all eternity. If I fail I am banished to hell, a place with an absolute absence of joy, love, happiness, and not to mention the physical punishments, for all of eternity.

Why doesn't God simply destroy the souls who have failed to meet his demands? Why doesn't he simply permit them to exist as they are on earth until they come around? Why doesn't he do any number of the far more humane and merciful options available to him?


[quote]It is technically unreasonable to keep it. (Obviously I'm not suggesting that God "throws out" a soul because it doesn't fulfill it's purpose, because in that case, it is a matter of free will... I'm just trying to point out why it's perfectly reasonable to have extreme ends in this situation, because it too, is a matter of cooperating with one's nature and purpose, which is always a situation of extremes in its very essence... one either fulfills ones' purpose, or does not... it isn't a matter with gray areas, so it wouldn't make sense for the consequences to be any less extreme than the choice itself.)[/quote]



How do you gauge "extreme" or any of these proportional assertions?

[quote]Once again, just a result of being separated from God. Permanent separation will mean permanent pain. That isn't God's fault.[/quote]

Like hell it isn't. Who decided the damned would be excluded from the possibility of redemption? Who decided to make it a high stakes "all or nothing" game? Who forced us to play such a sick game?



[quote]Our bodies and our souls are a composite. They go together, and because of that God ordained that all men should be reunited with their bodies, regardless of eternal consequence. The point I was making about that was simply that corporal punishment is the least punishment of hell. Our bodies, like our souls, were created to glorify God, and we have a choice to correspond with that, or not. And insofar as our bodies have not corresponded, there will be pain. Again, that's a natural consequence, Again, that doesn't mean God is tormenting them. They're tormenting themselves.[/quote]

The damned physically torment themselves? What do they do, flagellate themselves?

I'm sorry, you keep making these assertions about the way God has decided to construct his creation, and then absolve him of responsibility. Saying "oh well, it's not his fault!"

Well who ordained that the soul and the body should be composite?

[Guest]

Whatever you do for the least you did for God.

I think we could see God everyday if we really looked for Him.

What does that verse say ? When did we see you hungry Lord ? When did we see you without shelter ?

( I actually forget what it says I'm not trying to be dramatic or self rigtheous lol )

So anyhow I think you can look God in the eyes, in His human flesh everyday if you wanted to.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Guest

[Guest]

[quote name='Hassan' date='16 August 2009 - 01:56 AM' timestamp='1250402171' post='1950302']
Then why does he punish them? Yes, they greatest punishment of hell is the absence of God but with that come accidental corporal punishment right? What is the point of these punishments if there is no possibility of redemption?









Did he not determine what the reason for our existence would be and what the consequences for failing to obey his will would be?



So if God's beloved children don't fulfill what he deems to be the purpose of their existence within the set of time he appoints for them then they are analogous to defective trash? I just read below and see that you don't loke that analogy after all and yet it seems to be pretty sport on with what you are proposing.


God, of his own volition, decided to create me. He then appointed a purpose on my life. I am to love, honor and venerate him with all my heart, mind and soul. He sets out a predetermined period of time (Just how long I am not told) for me to meet these requirements. If I meet his demands I am rewarded with heaven. Where I get to love honor and venerate him for all eternity. If I fail I am banished to hell, a place with an absolute absence of joy, love, happiness, and not to mention the physical punishments, for all of eternity.

Why doesn't God simply destroy the souls who have failed to meet his demands? Why doesn't he simply permit them to exist as they are on earth until they come around? Why doesn't he do any number of the far more humane and merciful options available to him?






How do you gauge "extreme" or any of these proportional assertions?



Like hell it isn't. Who decided the damned would be excluded from the possibility of redemption? Who decided to make it a high stakes "all or nothing" game? Who forced us to play such a sick game?





The damned physically torment themselves? What do they do, flagellate themselves?

I'm sorry, you keep making these assertions about the way God has decided to construct his creation, and then absolve him of responsibility. Saying "oh well, it's not his fault!"

Well who ordained that the soul and the body should be composite?
[/quote]

Peace Hassan. Your arguments are always really on point and if I didn't have such great faith in the goodness of God I would agree with your logic. Because it's reasonable and right now in this life it makes sence. It really does bro. But I know it's not accurate. God is good. God is just. People aren't going to be in hell who don't deserve to be there. While people are going to be in Heaven who don't deserve to be there. It's because of Gods goodness. You really have to reject God to end up in hell. Flat out reject him. It's not trivial. God isn't in this to say " I told ya so" He loves us bro. Peace and Godbless man.

[pat22]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' date='06 October 2009 - 07:05 AM' timestamp='1254827158' post='1979033']
Peace Hassan. Your arguments are always really on point and if I didn't have such great faith in the goodness of God I would agree with your logic. Because it's reasonable and right now in this life it makes sence. It really does bro. But I know it's not accurate. God is good. God is just. People aren't going to be in hell who don't deserve to be there. While people are going to be in Heaven who don't deserve to be there. It's because of Gods goodness. You really have to reject God to end up in hell. Flat out reject him. It's not trivial. God isn't in this to say " I told ya so" He loves us bro. Peace and Godbless man.
[/quote]
think hassan has some very legitimate arguements. they were good enough that nobody picked this up again for 2 months. and spouting off how good you think god is isn't very helpful

Edited October 6, 2009 by pat22

[mortify]

Since I've started this thread I've gotten a better understanding of the question and the answer to it. It deals with the one thing God reveres about man, the free will He has given him. God may will a man into suffering, but He will never will a man to believe, man must use his free will to make an act of faith. God will give us clues to motivate us to believe, but never knowledge, that is reserved for the Just in Heaven. So each person must make an initial step into the unknown, and there is no way around this. The problem is that it's not simply an intellectual question, whether a person can reasonably prove the existence of God or not. I once talked to a girl who told me she couldn't believe even though she wanted to, when we got to the core of the issue, it turned out the thought of changing her lifestyle seemed impossible, and the thought of being responsible for her actions too heavy. On the flipside I knew a Catholic doubting his faith, ultimately it turned out he was dispairing over vices he couldn't break free from. So there is really more to making an act of Faith than presenting reasonable arguments for theism or atheism. The will must choose whether God is worthy to be sought after, and this choice ultimately determines the fate of the soul. I am making the choice to believe, and that is beginning to cost me, but God willing I will make it to heaven, and I hope all you who read this pray that I get there, as I will certainly pray for you.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='mortify' date='26 July 2009 - 12:49 PM' timestamp='1248572958' post='1932071']
Why does he hide himself?

Changing bread into flesh while maintaining the appearance of bread?
[/quote]
Maybe you can't see the forest for the tree's.

[quote name='zunshynn' date='26 July 2009 - 02:28 PM' timestamp='1248578916' post='1932164']
I heard someone say once that if God were to reveal himself to us with all His glory manifested plainly, we would die upon seeing Him... so He hides Himself.
[/quote]
I don't believe that! At times I have felt the 'presence' quite strongly but not stressfully. It is powerful yet not stressful. It is exciting but not stressful. It is tear inducing but not stressful. It is strongly lovingly but not stressful. I also frequently hear him in my mind not as words but a direct thought. I know it is him because the message is wise and not stressful.

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='26 July 2009 - 04:16 PM' timestamp='1248585406' post='1932253']
I don't know about you, but I would find it difficult to eat the accidents of flesh.
[/quote]
Are you a vegetarian?

[quote name='Gregorius' date='27 July 2009 - 10:29 AM' timestamp='1248650955' post='1932696']
I geta sort of shiver down my spine when I witness a consecration. I talked to a priest-friend about it and he gets the same feeling. I guess that's good, because for a while I thought I was crazy. My point is that He might not be as hidden as I thought He was.
[/quote]
You'd have to be insensitive not to!

[Guest]

[quote name='pat22' date='06 October 2009 - 10:04 AM' timestamp='1254837873' post='1979080']
think hassan has some very legitimate arguements. they were good enough that nobody picked this up again for 2 months. and spouting off how good you think god is isn't very helpful
[/quote]


He is good though.

[Varg]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='25 July 2009 - 11:04 PM' timestamp='1248577499' post='1932132']
my guess is that he wants us to live free will to its fullest-- ie, to live it to its fullest requires doing it out of faith.
[/quote]If he wanted you to have complete free will would he have made the 10 commandments?

[Guest]

[quote name='Varg' date='11 October 2009 - 04:26 AM' timestamp='1255249610' post='1982998']
If he wanted you to have complete free will would he have made the 10 commandments?
[/quote]

the law is written on every human heart bro.

Edited October 11, 2009 by Guest

[Varg]

If that were the case, people would automatically believe in god due to the "I am your lord and god" commandment. As a matter of fact, people do not start to believe in god until they are told about him. Thus, it is not written in their heart. Also there is a lot of theft and murder in the world.

Edited October 11, 2009 by Varg

[Guest]

[quote name='Varg' date='11 October 2009 - 04:40 AM' timestamp='1255250423' post='1983003']
If that were the case, people would automatically believe in god due to the "I am your lord and god" commandment. As a matter of fact, people do not start to believe in god until they are told about him. Thus, it is not written in their heart. Also there is a lot of theft and murder in the world.
[/quote]

Jesus summed them up into one in love your neighbor as yourself. Just because their written in our heart doesn't mean we obey them. It's called freewill. Everybody has it.

Edited October 11, 2009 by Guest

[Varg]

You just can't win with you people!

[Guest]

[quote name='Varg' date='11 October 2009 - 04:43 AM' timestamp='1255250598' post='1983005']
You just can't win with you people!
[/quote]

ya you can man. get faith and get down with the team.

[Guest]

[quote name='Varg' date='11 October 2009 - 04:40 AM' timestamp='1255250423' post='1983003']
people do not start to believe in god until they are told about him.[/quote]

It's a converson bro. It's real. Faith is real. I could tell you about my conversion. God showed me He was real. Let me know of His existance without a doubt. He is good like that. We are not to seek signs but God does reveal Himself. Godbless bro.

Edited October 11, 2009 by Guest

[Varg]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' date='11 October 2009 - 05:08 AM' timestamp='1255252118' post='1983012']
God showed me He was real. Let me know of His existance without a doubt.
[/quote]May I ask how?

[Guest]

[quote name='Varg' date='11 October 2009 - 05:51 AM' timestamp='1255254680' post='1983028']
May I ask how?
[/quote]

It's pretty personal bro.

Edited October 11, 2009 by Guest

[Varg]

Ok, I understand.

[Guest]

Just like your conversion would be.

[Varg]

Indeed.