eagle_eye222001 Posted August 11, 2009 Posted August 11, 2009 [quote name='Semalsia' post='1945770' date='Aug 10 2009, 09:00 PM'].... How is it fair that in order to be saved God demands some people to do something which they are not able to do?[/quote] Like what? ---------------- Now playing: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/smashing+pumpkins/track/today"]Smashing Pumpkins - Today[/url] via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url]
Semalsia Posted August 11, 2009 Posted August 11, 2009 [quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1945775' date='Aug 11 2009, 01:06 AM']Like what? [/quote] To have faith.
eagle_eye222001 Posted August 11, 2009 Posted August 11, 2009 [quote name='Semalsia' post='1945795' date='Aug 10 2009, 09:34 PM']To have faith.[/quote] Isn't that a personal choice? ---------------- Now playing: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/3+doors+down/track/better+life"]3 Doors Down - Better Life[/url] via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url]
Semalsia Posted August 11, 2009 Posted August 11, 2009 [quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1945796' date='Aug 11 2009, 01:36 AM']Isn't that a personal choice?[/quote] If it is then they are unable to make it.
eagle_eye222001 Posted August 11, 2009 Posted August 11, 2009 More accurately, they chose whether to have it or not. Opportunity knocked. ---------------- Now playing: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/flyleaf/track/sorrow"]Flyleaf - Sorrow[/url] via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url]
Semalsia Posted August 11, 2009 Posted August 11, 2009 [quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1945800' date='Aug 11 2009, 01:42 AM']More accurately, they chose whether to have it or not. Opportunity knocked.[/quote] Sometimes possible things are not possible to do. Like walking off a cliff when you are scared to die. And faith may not be possible at all. You'd need to trust and you can't just choose to trust something. Especially the unknown.
eagle_eye222001 Posted August 11, 2009 Posted August 11, 2009 [quote name='Semalsia' post='1945808' date='Aug 10 2009, 10:02 PM']Sometimes possible things are not possible to do. Like walking off a cliff when you are scared to die.[/quote] Not a parallel example. [quote]And faith may not be possible at all. You'd need to trust and you can't just choose to trust something. Especially the unknown.[/quote] Which is why you look at the arguments for why you should trust something as opposed to just blindly choosing to do so. ---------------- Now playing: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/lifehouse/track/whatever+it+takes"]Lifehouse - Whatever It Takes[/url] via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url]
Hassan Posted August 11, 2009 Posted August 11, 2009 [quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1945829' date='Aug 10 2009, 09:44 PM']Which is why you look at the arguments for why you should trust something as opposed to just blindly choosing to do so. ---------------- Now playing: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/lifehouse/track/whatever+it+takes"]Lifehouse - Whatever It Takes[/url] via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url][/quote] And there are no compelling arguments to support traditional Christianity, Judaism or Islam. I assume the same is true for Hinduism and Buddhism but I haven't checked. Not even a single sound argument for the most vague sort of God.
eagle_eye222001 Posted August 11, 2009 Posted August 11, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1945834' date='Aug 10 2009, 10:50 PM']And there are no compelling arguments to support traditional Christianity, Judaism or Islam. I assume the same is true for Hinduism and Buddhism but I haven't checked. Not even a single sound argument for the most vague sort of God.[/quote] Correct. All believers are blind ducks that can't think for themselves and don't realize that there is ultimately no sound argument for a god nor no sound argument for no god. All believers are suckers. ---------------- Now playing: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/lifehouse/track/unknown"]Lifehouse - Unknown[/url] via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url]
Hassan Posted August 11, 2009 Posted August 11, 2009 [quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1945836' date='Aug 10 2009, 10:54 PM']Correct. All believers are blind ducks that can't think for themselves and don't realize that there is ultimately no sound argument for a god nor no sound argument for no god. All believers are suckers.[/quote] I said no such thing and there are numerous theists whose intellectual powers I have praised here. Men like Seyyed Hossein Nasr, the present Pope, Kurt Godel et cetera. I said there were no sound arguments for the existence of God. If you have one please post it. If not then we should agree that there are not valid arguments for any of the monotheisms.
eagle_eye222001 Posted August 11, 2009 Posted August 11, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1945848' date='Aug 10 2009, 11:08 PM']I said no such thing and there are numerous theists whose intellectual powers I have praised here. Men like Seyyed Hossein Nasr, the present Pope, Kurt Godel et cetera. I said there were no sound arguments for the existence of God.[/quote] Don't know why you would praise them. After all if there is no sound argument for the existence of a god, then anyone that must believe in such a thing is majorly mistaken. I'm also pointing out that there is no sound argument for the lack of a god. [quote]If you have one please post it. If not then we should agree that there are not valid arguments for any of the monotheisms.[/quote] You've already rejected all the major ones as not sound even though you have no sound argument against a god so I'm not sure what the point of bringing up an argument would bring. ---------------- Now playing: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/coldplay/track/the+scientist"]Coldplay - The Scientist[/url] via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url]
Hassan Posted August 11, 2009 Posted August 11, 2009 [quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1945859' date='Aug 10 2009, 11:20 PM']Don't know why you would praise them. After all if there is no sound argument for the existence of a god, then anyone that must believe in such a thing is majorly mistaken.[/quote] My assertions would only imply that they were mistaken if they believed there was a sound argument for the existence of a God. Nasr follows gnosticism and the Shia Islamic Sufi belief that religious faith comes through a sort of inner illumination. Godel was working on an ontological argument for God's existence when he died but I know of no argument which he asserted was sound. While the Pope is bound by Vatican I he has made no definitive assertion that any particular argument is sound that I am aware of. [quote]I'm also pointing out that there is no sound argument for the lack of a god.[/quote] Nor Shiva. [quote]You've already rejected all the major ones as not sound even though you have no sound argument against a god so I'm not sure what the point of bringing up an argument would bring.[/quote] Do you have one or not?
eagle_eye222001 Posted August 11, 2009 Posted August 11, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1945870' date='Aug 10 2009, 11:28 PM']My assertions would only imply that they were mistaken if they believed there was a sound argument for the existence of a God.[/quote] "Sound argument" being one that could be proven in court I presume? [quote]Nasr follows gnosticism and the Shia Islamic Sufi belief that religious faith comes through a sort of inner illumination. Godel was working on an ontological argument for God's existence when he died but I know of no argument which he asserted was sound. While the Pope is bound by Vatican I he has made no definitive assertion that any particular argument is sound that I am aware of.[/quote] Bound by Vatican I in what way? Godel believed if the universe was rationally constructed, then there was some sort of god. [quote]...Do you have one or not?[/quote] Do you have on? ---------------- Now playing: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/led+zeppelin/track/misty+mountain+hop"]Led Zeppelin - Misty Mountain Hop[/url] via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url]
Hassan Posted August 11, 2009 Posted August 11, 2009 [quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1945900' date='Aug 10 2009, 10:44 PM']"Sound argument" being one that could be proven in court I presume?[/quote] A valid argument with factually correct premises. [quote]Bound by Vatican I in what way?[/quote] In rejecting Fideism. [quote]Godel believed if the universe was rationally constructed, then there was some sort of god.[/quote] If that's just a belief it has nothing to do with my point. If you have a link to what he proposed as a sound argument for the soundness of this belief I'll look at it. [quote]Do you have on?[/quote] No. I've never claimed any such argument existed or that one would be possible.
eagle_eye222001 Posted August 11, 2009 Posted August 11, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1945912' date='Aug 10 2009, 11:50 PM']...No. I've never claimed any such argument existed or that one would be possible.[/quote] So your in the middle of nowhere asking me for a sound argument that you have already rejected? ---------------- Now playing: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/hinder/track/better+than+me"]Hinder - Better Than Me[/url] via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url]
Hassan Posted August 11, 2009 Posted August 11, 2009 [quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1945926' date='Aug 10 2009, 11:58 PM']So your in the middle of nowhere asking me for a sound argument that you have already rejected? ---------------- Now playing: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/hinder/track/better+than+me"]Hinder - Better Than Me[/url] via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url][/quote] What?
eagle_eye222001 Posted August 11, 2009 Posted August 11, 2009 You don't have a sound argument for or against a god, right? ---------------- Now playing: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/flyleaf/track/fully+alive"]Flyleaf - Fully Alive[/url] via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url]
Hassan Posted August 11, 2009 Posted August 11, 2009 [quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1945934' date='Aug 10 2009, 11:03 PM']You don't have a sound argument for or against a god, right? ---------------- Now playing: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/flyleaf/track/fully+alive"]Flyleaf - Fully Alive[/url] via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url][/quote] That is correct. I don't see how that helps you. It puts God in the same boat as unicorns and Shiva.
Semalsia Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 (edited) [quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1945829' date='Aug 11 2009, 01:44 AM']Not a parallel example.[/quote] What's wrong with it? I think it's a good analogue. Although it might be technically possible for everyone to do certain action, it can be impossible for some to actually do it because their mind will not allow them to go through with it. Walking off a cliff is an obvious example and I thought faith would be obvious as well. [quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1945829' date='Aug 11 2009, 01:44 AM']Which is why you look at the arguments for why you should trust something as opposed to just blindly choosing to do so.[/quote] I was replying to LousvilleFan who was saying that the way to get convinced of God's existence is to pray. And what I was trying to say was that that's like a chicken and an egg problem. You'll need to pray for God to reveal himself, but you can't pray untill God reveals himself. Some people can't do the leap of faith and trust, which is why it's unfair for God to demand it. Edited August 13, 2009 by Semalsia
LouisvilleFan Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Semalsia' post='1945770' date='Aug 10 2009, 10:00 PM']Are you saying then that prayer is the only way to gain evidence or knowledge of God's existence? Does that not require a leap of faith also? And what if you don't pray? How is it fair that in order to be saved God demands some people to do something which they are not able to do?[/quote] I said "especially in prayer," not "only in prayer." The Conversion of St. Paul is the iconic testimony to God revealing himself to the most hard-hearted individuals. I suppose Saul (before he was Paul) prayed as a practicing Jew, but I can't imagine it was pious prayer. That wouldn't be fair. God works with whatever we can do. "My grace is sufficient for you." (2nd Corinthians 12:9) Edited August 13, 2009 by LouisvilleFan
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