aalpha1989 Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 [quote name='Delivery Boy' date='04 October 2009 - 07:06 PM' timestamp='1254697571' post='1977657'] Tell me how we can go from turning the other cheek when we are struck and to love our enemies, to burning fellow believers and torturing them at the stake ? I don't really see how ? Now if Jesus wouldn't have come along and said these things I could see how we could justify it from reading the old testement. But it seems Jesus contradicted all of that. Hmmmm. I'm a bit confused. [/quote] Jesus drove people out of the temple with whips; to turn the other cheek does not mean to be a pacifist. The view of the Church and of Aquinas is that if capital punishment is ever acceptable, it is because (as Aquinas says in the quotations I already posted) out of love for the Body of Christ, a greater evil must be prevented.
Guest Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 [quote name='aalpha1989' date='04 October 2009 - 07:10 PM' timestamp='1254697810' post='1977666'] Jesus drove people out of the temple with whips; to turn the other cheek does not mean to be a pacifist. The view of the Church and of Aquinas is that if capital punishment is ever acceptable, it is because (as Aquinas says in the quotations I already posted) out of love for the Body of Christ, a greater evil must be prevented. [/quote] was just asking. as i said earlier lets go burn some christians.
Resurrexi Posted October 4, 2009 Author Posted October 4, 2009 (edited) The Church has actually condemned this statement as an error: "That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit." (Pope Leo X, [i]Exsurge Domine[/i], 33). This means that, in theory, there are sometimes circumstances under which burning heretics can be morally acceptable. Edited October 4, 2009 by Resurrexi
Guest Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 [quote name='MIkolbe' date='04 October 2009 - 07:08 PM' timestamp='1254697732' post='1977661'] and he wonders why he has negative votes. [/quote] ha i'm fianally on the plus side somehow.
Kitty Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 [quote name='aalpha1989' date='04 October 2009 - 06:51 PM' timestamp='1254696700' post='1977636'] by the way, i got the quotes rather quickly off of [url="http://www.aquinasonline.com/Questions/cappunsh.html"]this[/url] website. edit: The execution was not simply because Hus had different beliefs, but that he propogated beliefs which could affect peoples' salvation in a negative way. [/quote] "Salvation" may or may not exist, because God may or may not exist. You cannot murder someone based off of beliefs that are not proven to be true.
HisChildForever Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' date='04 October 2009 - 07:15 PM' timestamp='1254698126' post='1977669'] This means that, in theory, executing heretics can sometimes be acceptable. [/quote] Can you come up with a modern day example?
Guest Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' date='04 October 2009 - 07:15 PM' timestamp='1254698126' post='1977669'] The Church has actually condemned this statement as an error: "That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit." (Pope Leo X, [i]Exsurge Domine[/i], 33). This means that, in theory, there are sometimes circumstances under which burning heretics can be morally acceptable. [/quote] tbn has a boatlaod. what are we waiting for ?
Resurrexi Posted October 4, 2009 Author Posted October 4, 2009 [quote name='Selah' date='04 October 2009 - 05:56 PM' timestamp='1254696967' post='1977647'] What were his civil crimes? [/quote] Spreading heresy was a civil crime in many states in Europe at that time.
Resurrexi Posted October 4, 2009 Author Posted October 4, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='04 October 2009 - 06:16 PM' timestamp='1254698203' post='1977672'] Can you come up with a modern day example? [/quote] No, I can only come up with historical examples.
HisChildForever Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' date='04 October 2009 - 07:18 PM' timestamp='1254698321' post='1977676'] No, I can only come up with historical examples. [/quote] Why? You pretty much implied that this... [b]This means that, in theory, there are sometimes circumstances under which burning heretics can be morally acceptable.[/b] ...applies to any period in history. So let's talk modern day - modern day heretics (give examples), and please define what circumstance would fall under "there are [u]sometimes[/u] circumstances."
Kitty Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 The church can't burn people now because murder is against the law. Also, the church isn't in charge of the country anymore, thank goodness.
Resurrexi Posted October 4, 2009 Author Posted October 4, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='04 October 2009 - 06:21 PM' timestamp='1254698502' post='1977679'] So let's talk modern day - modern day heretics (give examples), and please define what circumstance would fall under "there are [u]sometimes[/u] circumstances." [/quote] If social conditions were the same in a modern day state as they were in a country in Medieval Western Europe, then in my opinion it would probably be acceptable.
Vincent Vega Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 [quote name='Kitty' date='04 October 2009 - 07:24 PM' timestamp='1254698655' post='1977683'] The church can't burn people now because murder is against the law.[/quote] The Church could indeed burn people if She found it fit to do so. [quote]Also, the church isn't in charge of the country anymore, thank goodness. [/quote] Tell that to the Vatican.
HisChildForever Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 [quote name='Kitty' date='04 October 2009 - 07:24 PM' timestamp='1254698655' post='1977683'] The church can't burn people now because murder is against the law. Also, the church isn't in charge of the country anymore, thank goodness. [/quote] I'm interested in hearing what he has to say. He has to have some examples.
Kitty Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='04 October 2009 - 07:25 PM' timestamp='1254698753' post='1977687'] The Church could indeed burn people if She found it fit to do so. Tell that to the Vatican. [/quote] Well, they could if they wanted, but they'd get themselves thrown in jail. The Vatican is a country. They do not control other countries.
Resurrexi Posted October 4, 2009 Author Posted October 4, 2009 [quote name='Kitty' date='04 October 2009 - 06:27 PM' timestamp='1254698844' post='1977690'] Well, they could if they wanted, but they'd get themselves thrown in jail. The Vatican is a country. They do not control other countries. [/quote] Civil governments always did the executing. Clerics were never executors.
HisChildForever Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' date='04 October 2009 - 07:25 PM' timestamp='1254698712' post='1977686'] If social conditions were the same in a modern day state as they were in a country in Medieval Western Europe, then in my opinion it would probably be acceptable. [/quote] What circumstance in modern times would make the burning of a heretic [please explain why the individual is a heretic] morally acceptable? Just answer the question. I want your opinion, your speculation, whatever.
Guest Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 [quote name='aalpha1989' date='04 October 2009 - 07:10 PM' timestamp='1254697810' post='1977666'] ; to turn the other cheek does not mean to be a pacifist.[/quote] what does it mean ? enlighten me.
Resurrexi Posted October 4, 2009 Author Posted October 4, 2009 (edited) [quote name='HisChildForever' date='04 October 2009 - 06:28 PM' timestamp='1254698914' post='1977693'] What circumstance in modern times would make the burning of a heretic [please explain why the individual is a heretic] morally acceptable? Just answer the question. I want your opinion, your speculation, whatever. [/quote] There would have to be a state in which Catholicism was the state religion and where more than 90% of the population were Catholics. The aforementioned state would have to have technology that was no more advanced than that of the 17th century. Also, heresy would have to be something that could potentially be very detrimental to the state. Then, perhaps, I could it would be acceptable for those who publicly and repeatedly spread heretical opinions to be executed after having been warned by authorities multiple times and having been found guilty beyond all doubt. But this is just my opinion and is completely speculative. I may be completely wrong. Edited October 4, 2009 by Resurrexi
Guest Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 whoever gave me the negative 1 has no sence of humor. geez.[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif[/img]
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