Purifying Vessels At Mass

[Gal. 5:22,23]

My son is an altar server. At Daily Mass he was asked by the priest to dry the vessels after the priest purified them. Is this allowed? Thanks!

[Cam42]

[quote name='Gal. 5:22,23' timestamp='1306422471' post='2246204']
My son is an altar server. At Daily Mass he was asked by the priest to dry the vessels after the priest purified them. Is this allowed? Thanks!
[/quote]


Absolutely not!!!! The wiping of the vessels is part of the purifying process.

Unless he is an installed acolyte, by the bishop, as an official ministry of the Church, or higher (ie. deacon or priest), he is not allowed to do that. This [url="http://www.adoremus.org/1106ExtraordinaryMinisters.html"]article[/url] speaks about extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion, but that extends to anyone serving on the altar. This has been in place since 2006, so either your pastor is unaware, or willfully disobedient. That is not for me to decide, but those are the only two options in this case.

I would specifically look to GIRM #163.

I would have him respectfully decline the next time that he is asked to do that.

[dUSt]

It's probably a good idea to talk to the priest about it before your son just starts refusing to do it.

This guideline on the USCCB website could be easily misinterpreted:

[quote]Although institution into the ministry of acolyte is reserved to lay men, [b]the diocesan bishop may permit the liturgical functions of the instituted acolyte to be carried out by altar servers[/b], men and women, boys and girls. Such persons may carry out all the functions listed in [b]no. 100[/b] (with the exception of the distribution of Holy Communion) and [b]nos. 187 - 190 and no. 193[/b] of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal.

Source: http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/servers.shtml[/quote]
If your priest read that, but then didn't realize that this did [b]not[/b] include section 192 (purifying of vessels) in the GIRM, he might think it's allowed.

[Cam42]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1306425418' post='2246222']
It's probably a good idea to talk to the priest about it before your son just starts refusing to do it.

This guideline on the USCCB website could be easily misinterpreted:

[quote]Although institution into the ministry of acolyte is reserved to lay men, the diocesan bishop may permit the liturgical functions of the instituted acolyte to be carried out by altar servers, men and women, boys and girls. Such persons may carry out all the functions listed in no. 100 (with the exception of the distribution of Holy Communion) and nos. 187 - 190 and no. 193 of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal.

Source: http://www.usccb.org...t/servers.shtml[/quote]



If your priest read that, but then didn't realize that this did [b]not[/b] include section 192 (purifying of vessels) in the GIRM, he might think it's allowed.
[/quote]


Ummm...[b]dUSt you're wrong[/b]...he is not entitled to that function. The purifying of vessels is [u]not allowed[/u] for laymen. They [b]cannot[/b] purify. The most an altar server can do is transport the ALREADY purified vessel to the credence, if so determined.

The article I cite is clear. The letter from Bishop Skylstad is clear. The GIRM #163 is even clearer. Redemptoris Sacramentum is clear. The Church is clear. Laymen [b]cannot[/b] purify.


[url="http://www.nccbuscc.org/liturgy/cleansingofvessels.pdf"]source[/url] (cf. #4)
[url="http://www.adoremus.org/RedemptionisSacramentum.html"]source[/url] (cf. #119)

Edited May 26, 2011 by Cam42

[dUSt]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306426290' post='2246226']
Ummm...[b]dUSt you're wrong[/b]...he is not entitled to that function. The purifying of vessels is [u]not allowed[/u] for laymen. They [b]cannot[/b] purify. The most an altar server can do is transport the ALREADY purified vessel to the credence, if so determined.

The article I cite is clear. The letter from Bishop Skylstad is clear. The GIRM #163 is even clearer. Redemptoris Sacramentum is clear. The Church is clear. Laymen [b]cannot[/b] purify.


[url="http://www.nccbuscc.org/liturgy/cleansingofvessels.pdf"]source[/url] (cf. #4)
[url="http://www.adoremus.org/RedemptionisSacramentum.html"]source[/url] (cf. #119)
[/quote]
Re-read my post dude. This time, more carefully. Geesh.

[Cam42]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1306426394' post='2246227']
Re-read my post dude. This time, more carefully. Geesh.
[/quote]

You're wrong. I read what you said, carefully. There is no need for the child or parents to have to have a confab with the pastor. He should respectfully decline to do so next time he is asked. It is not his right nor his place to purify vessels.

[Winchester]

Your mom goes to college.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306426586' post='2246228']
You're wrong. I read what you said, carefully. There is no need for the child or parents to have to have a confab with the pastor. He should respectfully decline to do so next time he is asked. It is not his right nor his place to purify vessels.
[/quote]
You are implying that I said it was okay for him to purify the vessels. I did not. I said the exact opposite. I pointed out that the "exception" I quoted does [b]NOT[/b] apply to the purification of vessels. I recommended that they talk to the priest about this, to make sure the priest was aware of this. Nothing I said was wrong. You mis-read what I wrote. Of course, you will not admit this, and I do not expect an apology, so by all means, do not feel obligated.

[Cam42]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1306426839' post='2246230']
You are implying that I said it was okay for him to purify the vessels. I did not. I said the exact opposite. I pointed out that the "exception" I quoted does [b]NOT[/b] apply to the purification of vessels. I recommended that they talk to the priest about this, to make sure the priest was aware of this. Nothing I said was wrong. You mis-read what I wrote. Of course, you will not admit this, and I do not expect an apology, so by all means, do not feel obligated.
[/quote]

You said:

[quote]It's probably a good idea to talk to the priest about it before your son just starts refusing to do it.[/quote]

You're wrong. He doesn't need to talk to the priest about it. There simply is no need. He should not be doing it and what good would it do for him or the parents to have a confab about the issue?

Wrong is wrong. He should just say no. There is nothing wrong with that.

I misread nothing. I am more than happy to apologize when I am wrong, I'm not in this instance. You're applying my correction of you to the wrong part, but then again, I don't expect you to apologize either.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Cam42

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306428034' post='2246234']
You're wrong. He doesn't need to talk to the priest about it. There simply is no need. He should not be doing it and what good would it do for him or the parents to have a confab about the issue?

Wrong is wrong. He should just say no. There is nothing wrong with that.

I misread nothing. I am more than happy to apologize when I am wrong, I'm not in this instance. You're applying my correction of you to the wrong part, but then again, I don't expect you to apologize either.
[/quote]

[CatherineM]

If one is concerned with the liturgy, I can't imagine how an altar server refusing to do something the priest asks him to do, would add to the liturgy. I believe that disagreements, dissent, discussions, whatever you want to call it, should be done privately. The mass isn't a place for visible disobedience to the priest. Just because you think a priest isn't doing something right, doesn't mean we have to show disrespect in public. If we need high inquisitors running around telling everyone what they're doing wrong, it should come from Rome, not an altar boy.

[Cam42]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1306431520' post='2246255']
If one is concerned with the liturgy, I can't imagine how an altar server refusing to do something the priest asks him to do, would add to the liturgy. I believe that disagreements, dissent, discussions, whatever you want to call it, should be done privately. The mass isn't a place for visible disobedience to the priest. Just because you think a priest isn't doing something right, doesn't mean we have to show disrespect in public. If we need high inquisitors running around telling everyone what they're doing wrong, it should come from Rome, not an altar boy.
[/quote]

The boy should not be put in that position to start with. The next time he is scheduled to serve, he should respectfully decline any action which is not proper to him. There is no need for a confab. There is no need for discussion. He should simply and clearly state that he doesn't have the right to wipe out the vessels. If the celebrant doesn't want him to serve, because he is being obedient to Holy Mother Church, then he should de-vest and go sit with his parents.

It is more harmful to have him engage in an abuse than to say no to a priest. I never advocated visible disobedience. I simply said that he should respectfully decline the invitation to purify. If the celebrant hands him the partially purified chalice, then he should simply cover it with the purificator and place it on the credence, without any attempt to purify. After Mass, he should inform the celebrant that he needs to finish purifying the vessel and and respectfully decline to do that in the future. There needs to be no drama, there needs to be no dissention, because there is none. The boy is being clear about his role and dutifully fulfilling it.

[Gal. 5:22,23]

Thank you for the replies. I'm more confused, I think. The priest (our pastor) is a Canon Lawyer, as is my Spiritual Director. I trust the latter implicitly and he tells me that as long as my son does not purify them in the sense of consuming what is left of the sacred species, there is no problem with him just drying the sacred vessels. I've just sent an e-mail to another solid priest who is a Canon Lawyer as well. I know him well enough that even if he tells me it's technically ok, he'll say that he doesn't like it. This is a tricky situation because I work at my parish...

[organwerke]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306431986' post='2246259']
The boy should not be put in that position to start with. The next time he is scheduled to serve, he should respectfully decline any action which is not proper to him. There is no need for a confab. There is no need for discussion. He should simply and clearly state that he doesn't have the right to wipe out the vessels. If the celebrant doesn't want him to serve, because he is being obedient to Holy Mother Church, then he should de-vest and go sit with his parents.

It is more harmful to have him engage in an abuse than to say no to a priest. I never advocated visible disobedience. I simply said that he should respectfully decline the invitation to purify. If the celebrant hands him the partially purified chalice, then he should simply cover it with the purificator and place it on the credence, without any attempt to purify. After Mass, he should inform the celebrant that he needs to finish purifying the vessel and and respectfully decline to do that in the future. There needs to be no drama, there needs to be no dissention, because there is none. The boy is being clear about his role and dutifully fulfilling it.
[/quote]

I second dust on this, in the position of the boy I would talk with the pastor before serving saying that the next time I will serve I do not intend to purify the vessels because this is not my right nor my position.
The fact that he can't purify the vessel doesn't imply that he has to say no exclusively and absolutely only during the Mass' service and in no other circumstance.

[organwerke]

[quote name='Gal. 5:22,23' timestamp='1306433594' post='2246266']
Thank you for the replies. I'm more confused, I think. The priest (our pastor) is a Canon Lawyer, as is my Spiritual Director. I trust the latter implicitly and he tells me that as long as my son does not purify them in the sense of consuming what is left of the sacred species, there is no problem with him just drying the sacred vessels. I've just sent an e-mail to another solid priest who is a Canon Lawyer as well. I know him well enough that even if he tells me it's technically ok, he'll say that he doesn't like it. This is a tricky situation because I work at my parish...
[/quote]

I understand you, but I don't think it would be a tragedy for the priest to dry the vessels himself.
Why is he so insistent in asking your son to do this?
If he can't be respected in his not only lecit but also very little request, maybe it is better for him to think about stopping to serve at the mass in this church, after all he is not obliged to do this.

Edited May 26, 2011 by organwerke

[dUSt]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306431986' post='2246259']
After Mass, he should inform the celebrant that he needs to finish purifying the vessel and and respectfully decline to do that in the future.
[/quote]
But you said, and I quote, "[i]You're wrong. He doesn't need to talk to the priest about it. There simply is no need.[/i]"

When I said he should talk to the priest, you said I was wrong. Are you now saying that [b]you[/b] are [b]also[/b] wrong, or are you saying I was right in the first place? Or, is your official position that he should spring this on the priest [b]during[/b] mass, as opposed to [b]before[/b] mass? You should be more clear.

[Cam42]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1306435912' post='2246280']
But you said, and I quote, "[i]You're wrong. He doesn't need to talk to the priest about it. There simply is no need.[/i]"

When I said he should talk to the priest, you said I was wrong. Are you now saying that [b]you[/b] are [b]also[/b] wrong, or are you saying I was right in the first place? Or, is your official position that he should spring this on the priest [b]during[/b] mass, as opposed to [b]before[/b] mass? You should be more clear.
[/quote]

Whatever...you're trolling...

What I said was clear. What I said was unambiguous. You muddied the waters. The boy has no right to purify. The action in which the celebrant was asking him to do was clearly part of the purification process. He should not do that. If I was unclear at all, which I don't think that I was, it was clarified in subsequent posts, even down to the point where I explained what he should do if it were to arise in Mass.

At no point do I think that he needs to have a confab with the celebrant. It is clear what he should do. I have been faced with this before, as I am an MC in my parish. I have to be able to speak to all issues which are liturgical, because that is part of my role. I spoke to them.

You need to realize that just because YOU think that I am phishy, doesn't mean that I actually am. I know what to do and I am very good at it. You just don't like the fact that I'm right in this instance.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Gal. 5:22,23' timestamp='1306433594' post='2246266']
Thank you for the replies. I'm more confused, I think. The priest (our pastor) is a Canon Lawyer, as is my Spiritual Director. I trust the latter implicitly and he tells me that as long as my son does not purify them in the sense of consuming what is left of the sacred species, there is no problem with him just drying the sacred vessels. I've just sent an e-mail to another solid priest who is a Canon Lawyer as well. I know him well enough that even if he tells me it's technically ok, he'll say that he doesn't like it. This is a tricky situation because I work at my parish...
[/quote]

Here is what you should ask him:

In light of [url="http://www.adoremus.org/RedemptionisSacramentum.html"]Redemptionis Sacramentum #119[/url] and the document [url="http://www.nccbuscc.org/liturgy/cleansingofvessels.pdf"]CONGREGATIO CULTO DIVINO ET DISCIPLINA SACRAMENTORUM[/url], should my son be purifying vessels?

and

Since [url="http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/GIRM.pdf"]GIRM #163[/url] speaks to the action specifically, should we have him respectfully decline or simply cover the chalice during the Mass and have the celebrant (or other PROPERLY installed cleric) finish purfying after Holy Mass?

Those are the two questions I would ask. I have included links for you, so that you can have documents in hand when asking your canon lawyer friend.

[CatherineM]

This is why, when I attend mass, I go as a sinner, a lay person, a member of the body of Christ. If I go as a theologian, I might be inclined to intellectually pick apart the mass rather than just experience the mystery and grandeur.

[Cam42]

[quote name='organwerke' timestamp='1306433914' post='2246269']
I second dust on this, in the position of the boy I would talk with the pastor before serving saying that the next time I will serve I do not intend to purify the vessels because this is not my right nor my position.
The fact that he can't purify the vessel doesn't imply that he has to say no exclusively and absolutely only during the Mass' service and in no other circumstance.
[/quote]


I don't know where everyone is coming up with this assumption that I am expecting out and out refusal at the altar or credence. I am not. What I have said all along is that the boy should refuse when he asked to do this. I have given clear steps on how to do it tactfully. I have also said all along that he should simply inform the pastor that he has no right to do this and that he should not be expected to do so in the future, as it is not his right to do so. There is no conversation to be had.

If the priest doesn't have enough respect for the boy to honor him not wanting to participate in an abusive action in the liturgy, then the boy shouldn't be serving there to begin with. That is what is harmful to his Faith, not the fact that the celebrant might be offended.