OraProMe Posted December 12, 2009 Posted December 12, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='12 December 2009 - 02:07 AM' timestamp='1260601621' post='2018955'] But as stated earlier, if I simply put Islamic teaching in my own words, I would be shrugged off as an individual with no credible backing. [/quote] Well I'm not sure who would do that and if they did don't take notice. I'm being completely honest when I say I'd much rather have a conversation with you than read websites. After all that's what a forum is for. [quote] I can certainly tell you that the Church does not believe in bringing a homosexual to court, nor does the Church believe in "punishing" a homosexual - I put "punishing" in quotations because I am waiting to hear what our Muslim posters mean by that. [/quote] I would say that is because the Church is historically Western (speaking geographically not liturgically) and such a punishment would no longer be acceptable in the democratic, secular West. I'm willing to bet that if Christianity was established in countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia that homosexuals would be punished and heretics would still be being burnt.
Hussain Posted December 12, 2009 Posted December 12, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' date='12 December 2009 - 03:00 AM' timestamp='1260601247' post='2018948'] "We try to interpret the Qur'an as close as possible to the first three generations following the Prophet, based on the exegesis provided by scholars" Thanks man. Do you not think that trying to follow the interpretation of people who lived over 1000 years ago makes your religion stagnant and unable to effectively function in the modern world? For example in the Western world polygamy is no longer acceptable so would Islam conform to this changing society or stick to the conduct of people who lived centuries ago? Can Islamic teaching, to an extent, shape itself around changing social trends (Christianity has with the Jews for example)? [/quote] I mentioned that we interpret rulings, or in Islamic terms 'fiqh' based on how the pious generations understood their stipulations, and how they understood it was according to how the Prophet taught. Islam is for all times and places, a universal religion. Its teachings are absolute, what was made halal (permissible) by Allah remains as such, and what was made haram (prohibited) also remains as such. The Prophet taught us that what is halal has been made clear, and what is haram has been made clear, and to stay away from the 'gray area'. As Islam is universal, it recognizes customs and cultures of people, known as 'urf in Islamic terms. Scholars have informed us that Islamic injunctions change as you move from one 'urf to another. For example, if in one culture it is commonly held that it is not modest to uncover your upper body, then Muslim men must not do so, even if technically they are allowed. The issue of polygamy has been made permissible in the Qur'an, by God, so there is no abrogating that. However, there are conditions placed on that, as you must know already. God ordered us to marry only one if we fear injustice, and that we would be held accountable if we did otherwise. So in short, the clear-cut rules cannot be amended. And we believe that Islamic practice, both in spirituality and appilcation, was done more closely to what the Prophet taught, in the first few generations by the Companions and their offspring than now.
Pomak Posted December 12, 2009 Posted December 12, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='12 December 2009 - 05:57 PM' timestamp='1260601066' post='2018945'] Can you explain what you mean by "punished"? Do you mean to say that an individual can be tried and charged on the basis of homosexual relations? If so, how will he or she be punished by the law? [/quote] [quote] I'm not an expert on this, another member may be better equipped tohandle this question. However, in general when there are no clear-cutrules in the Qur'an or Prophetic practices, then scholars resort towhat is known as 'ijtihad', or striving to reach a ruling based onprinciples of the Quran and hadith. The punishment for homosexual actswas not carried out in the Prophet's time, and is not stipulated in theQur'an.[/quote] [quote] Thanks man. Do you not think that trying to follow the interpretationof people who lived over 1000 years ago makes your religion stagnantand unable to effectively function in the modern world? For example inthe Western world polygamy is no longer acceptable so would Islamconform to this changing society or stick to the conduct of people wholived centuries ago? Can Islamic teaching, to an extent, shape itselfaround changing social trends (Christianity has with the Jews forexample)?[/quote] No, if something was divine back then then it is right today. A friend has a saying, "true religion seeks to conform the 21st century to it, and false religion seeks to conform to the 21st century". [quote] What'swith the four witnesses thing? Is this a universal norm that is appliedto anything? Where did it come from, why is it applied, and in whattypes of situations? [/quote] In order to punish someone to the fullest extent to the law you need 4 witnesses. Otherwise its up to the judge to decided if he will let you go or give you a smaller punishment. In modern language its a burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt on the party that seeks to bring the charges.
Nihil Obstat Posted December 12, 2009 Posted December 12, 2009 [quote name='Pomak' date='12 December 2009 - 01:16 AM' timestamp='1260602161' post='2018965'] In order to punish someone to the fullest extent to the law you need 4 witnesses. Otherwise its up to the judge to decided if he will let you go or give you a smaller punishment. In modern language its a burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt on the party that seeks to bring the charges. [/quote] You say "in modern language." Does that mean that four witnesses are not technically necessary? What replaces the reasonable amount of proof now? (and does this four witnesses thing have some basis in your texts?)
Pomak Posted December 12, 2009 Posted December 12, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='12 December 2009 - 06:18 PM' timestamp='1260602313' post='2018967'] You say "in modern language." Does that mean that four witnesses are not technically necessary? What replaces the reasonable amount of proof now? (and does this four witnesses thing have some basis in your texts?) [/quote] Yes it goes back to the prophet saws. As for today, some scholars claim that in rape cases semen samples or videos can be considered equal to 4 witnesses. (or at a minimum equal to one witness each)
OraProMe Posted December 12, 2009 Posted December 12, 2009 [quote name='Hussain' date='12 December 2009 - 02:12 AM' timestamp='1260601922' post='2018963'] I mentioned that we interpret rulings, or in Islamic terms 'fiqh' based on how the pious generations understood their stipulations, and how they understood it was according to how the Prophet taught. Islam is for all times and places, a universal religion. Its teachings are absolute, what was made halal (permissible) by Allah remains as such, and what was made haram (prohibited) also remains as such. The Prophet taught us that what is halal has been made clear, and what is haram has been made clear, and to stay away from the 'gray area'. As Islam is universal, it recognizes customs and cultures of people, known as 'urf in Islamic terms. Scholars have informed us that Islamic injunctions change as you move from one 'urf to another. For example, if in one culture it is commonly held that it is not modest to uncover your upper body, then Muslim men must not do so, even if technically they are allowed. The issue of polygamy has been made permissible in the Qur'an, by God, so there is no abrogating that. However, there are conditions placed on that, as you must know already. God ordered us to marry only one if we fear injustice, and that we would be held accountable if we did otherwise. So in short, the clear-cut rules cannot be amended. And we believe that Islamic practice, both in spirituality and appilcation, was done more closely to what the Prophet taught, in the first few generations by the Companions and their offspring than now. [/quote] Okay. Does the wearing of the hijab fall under 'urf? Why is it required for women to cover their entire body in Saudi Arabia while in Iran a loose scarf is fine? Is this down to 'urf? What about the (ugh spelling...) Uigher regions of China (an area with a Muslim majority). Does the injunction for a woman to cover her head still hold strong here or give way to 'urf and cultural norms? If homosexuality wasn't addressed by the pious generations then how is the punishment for homosexual acts decided in 2009?
HisChildForever Posted December 12, 2009 Author Posted December 12, 2009 (edited) I would like our Muslim posters to answer the following questions. The answers can be as simple as possible. 1. What does Islam say about homosexuals and homosexual relations? 2. Why are homosexual relations considered "criminal" under Islamic law? 3. When a homosexual is "convicted" of having committed homosexual relations, what punishment does he or she receive? 4. As a follow-up to question #3, why is a homosexual deserving of such punishment [insert the answer to #3 here]? Edited December 12, 2009 by HisChildForever
Hussain Posted December 12, 2009 Posted December 12, 2009 (edited) [quote name='OraProMe' date='12 December 2009 - 03:22 AM' timestamp='1260602573' post='2018970'] Okay. Does the wearing of the hijab fall under 'urf? Why is it required for women to cover their entire body in Saudi Arabia while in Iran a loose scarf is fine? Is this down to 'urf? What about the (ugh spelling...) Uigher regions of China (an area with a Muslim majority). Does the injunction for a woman to cover her head still hold strong here or give way to 'urf and cultural norms? [/quote] Yes it does, the minimum required is covering all but the hands and face. But if in a certain place the majority cover their face, then it is encouraged to do so as well. Although Saudi Arabia is not entirely as such. But the 'minimum requirement' stays, wherever you are. (Refer to verse 31, chapter 24) [quote] If homosexuality wasn't addressed by the pious generations then how is the punishment for homosexual acts decided in 2009? [/quote] There's not just those generations, there's also 1400+ years of scholarship which have addressed such issues. And it's a matter of a difference of opinion on the punishment. Edited December 12, 2009 by Hussain
Apotheoun Posted December 12, 2009 Posted December 12, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Pomak' date='11 December 2009 - 11:52 PM' timestamp='1260600777' post='2018936'] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CA2_kaqAOQU [/quote] That was an interesting talk, thank you for posting it. I can agree with much of what the man says, although I would not be able to assent to his comments about homosexual desires being "natural," but giving the man the benefit of the doubt . . . perhaps he was not being as precise as he should have been. Edited December 12, 2009 by Apotheoun
HisChildForever Posted December 12, 2009 Author Posted December 12, 2009 [quote name='Hussain' date='12 December 2009 - 02:33 AM' timestamp='1260603237' post='2018979'] And it's a matter of a difference of opinion on the punishment. [/quote] Can you please offer examples of the different punishments suggested? I feel like you are dodging this question.
Hussain Posted December 12, 2009 Posted December 12, 2009 (edited) It ranges from life imprisonment, to punishment equal to that of adultery. Either way, as Pomak stated, you will need witnesses who have seen the act take place. Edited December 12, 2009 by Hussain
HisChildForever Posted December 12, 2009 Author Posted December 12, 2009 [quote name='Hussain' date='12 December 2009 - 02:45 AM' timestamp='1260603933' post='2018986'] It ranges from life imprisonment, to punishment equal to that of adultery. Either way, as Pomak stated, you will need witnesses who have seen the act take place. [/quote] Just to clarify, an individual who is caught participating in homosexual relations - and is found guilty after a proper trial (i.e. the four witnesses) - will be sentenced to life imprisonment. Can you please explain why such an extreme punishment is given? Also, can you please explain "punishment equal to that of adultery" - what kind of punishment is this? Thank you.
goldenchild17 Posted December 12, 2009 Posted December 12, 2009 (edited) [quote name='OraProMe' date='12 December 2009 - 12:28 AM' timestamp='1260599326' post='2018921']I do have a question for our Muslim guests though! In Christianty there is a tradition of scriptural interpretation (google exegesis and hermeneutics) by which some things are understood in a metaphorical sense, for example [b]many/most[/b] Catholics do not believe the universe was created in one week as recounted in the book of Genesis. Is there a similar system of interpretation in Islam? [/quote] Fixed it. Carry on Edited December 12, 2009 by goldenchild17
OraProMe Posted December 12, 2009 Posted December 12, 2009 Also what is the rationale behind condeming homosexuality in Islam? In Catholicism it ties into the procreative nature of sex. What's the logic in Islam?
HisChildForever Posted December 12, 2009 Author Posted December 12, 2009 (edited) [quote name='OraProMe' date='12 December 2009 - 03:12 AM' timestamp='1260605524' post='2018993'] Also what is the rationale behind condeming homosexuality in Islam? In Catholicism it ties into the procreative nature of sex. What's the logic in Islam? [/quote] Good question. I would take it further though and say "what is the rationale behind the criminality of homosexual relations?" Edited December 12, 2009 by HisChildForever
HisChildForever Posted December 12, 2009 Author Posted December 12, 2009 (edited) [quote name='HisChildForever' date='12 December 2009 - 02:49 AM' timestamp='1260604144' post='2018988'] Just to clarify, an individual who is caught participating in homosexual relations - and is found guilty after a proper trial (i.e. the four witnesses) - will be sentenced to life imprisonment. Can you please explain why such an extreme punishment is given? Also, can you please explain "punishment equal to that of adultery" - what kind of punishment is this? Thank you. [/quote] I am going to bed now, but I would like for these questions to be addressed. Thank you. Again to clarify, Islam teaches that individuals caught having homosexual relations can be sentenced to life imprisonment - or they will be sentenced to "punishment equal to that of adultery" which our Muslim posters have yet to clarify. Edited December 12, 2009 by HisChildForever
extempers Posted December 12, 2009 Posted December 12, 2009 These are all issues addressed directly on Maniac Muslim on NUMEROUS threads. I suggest taking the discussion there or reading those topics.
HisChildForever Posted December 12, 2009 Author Posted December 12, 2009 [quote name='extempers' date='12 December 2009 - 04:29 AM' timestamp='1260610142' post='2019003'] These are all issues addressed directly on Maniac Muslim on NUMEROUS threads. I suggest taking the discussion there or reading those topics. [/quote] Why would I receive satisfactory answers from you on that forum, but not on this forum? How do I know my questions would not be avoided, like the way they are being avoided right now? You came here to share your faith and beliefs; I am perplexed as to why you are hesitating to do so in this thread. I have posed some very basic questions that only require simple answers. I am sure they would take less than 2 minutes to answer. At this point there are two sets of questions that have yet to be answered. I will repost them here. [b]I would like our Muslim posters to answer the following questions. The answers can be as simple as possible. 1. What does Islam say about homosexuals and homosexual relations? 2. Why are homosexual relations considered "criminal" under Islamic law? 3. When a homosexual is "convicted" of having committed homosexual relations, what punishment does he or she receive? 4. As a follow-up to question #3, why is a homosexual deserving of such punishment [insert the answer to #3 here]? [/b] As well as [b]Just to clarify, an individual who is caught participating in homosexual relations - and is found guilty after a proper trial (i.e. the four witnesses) - will be sentenced to life imprisonment. Can you please explain why such an extreme punishment is given? Also, can you please explain "punishment equal to that of adultery" - what kind of punishment is this? Thank you. [/b]
rkwright Posted December 12, 2009 Posted December 12, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Pomak' date='12 December 2009 - 02:16 AM' timestamp='1260602161' post='2018965'] No, if something was divine back then then it is right today. A friend has a saying, "true religion seeks to conform the 21st century to it, and false religion seeks to conform to the 21st century". In order to punish someone to the fullest extent to the law you need 4 witnesses. Otherwise its up to the judge to decided if he will let you go or give you a smaller punishment. In modern language its a burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt on the party that seeks to bring the charges. [/quote] [quote name='Pomak' date='12 December 2009 - 02:21 AM' timestamp='1260602485' post='2018969'] Yes it goes back to the prophet saws. As for today, some scholars claim that in rape cases semen samples or videos can be considered equal to 4 witnesses. (or at a minimum equal to one witness each) [/quote] You guys act like its impossible to find 4 witnesses to punish someone of these crimes. Yet it happens all the time. Isn't is also true you only need 2 witnesses to convict someone of theft? Of course the punishment for theft is amputation. Who can be a witness? Who counts as a full witness? I have heard that only Muslim men count as a full witness, Muslim women count as 1/2 a witness, and non-muslims don't count at all. You say that some scholars claim that samples or videos can be equal to one witness. The problem is that is some scholars and not the actual courts. As I understand it, courts do not look at forensic evidence at all. All you need is 4 witnesses. Also as I understand it, there is no right to cross examine the witness, or test their credibility in any way. Edited December 12, 2009 by rkwright
rkwright Posted December 12, 2009 Posted December 12, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='12 December 2009 - 12:29 PM' timestamp='1260638973' post='2019150'] [b]Just to clarify, an individual who is caught participating in homosexual relations - and is found guilty after a proper trial (i.e. the four witnesses) - will be sentenced to life imprisonment. Can you please explain why such an extreme punishment is given? Also, can you please explain "punishment equal to that of adultery" - what kind of punishment is this? Thank you. [/b] [/quote] Really they get life imprisonment? Is that before or after the 100 lashes that Sura 24:2 requires?
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