Islam And Homosexuality

[extempers]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='13 December 2009 - 09:16 PM' timestamp='1260756998' post='2020005']
Oh, you have continued posting. Maybe I should ask you these questions.


1. Do you believe that when a homosexual is caught having sexual relations with a member of the same-sex, both individuals - once convicted - deserve death? If not, what do you believe they deserve?

2. Oh and as an aside, the atrocities committed by the Lord's Resistance Army do not reflect the teachings of Jesus Christ. What about the atrocities committed by Islamic countries (i.e. death to homosexuals)? What teachings do they reflect?
[/quote]

1. If it occurs in an Islamic state under the Muslim caliphate along with the evidence necessary, then we have differences of opinions.
No doubt many scholars have said they should be executed and given the severity of the sin as well as the societal ills it brings, it is what it is.
If you are looking for your "gotchya" point, please go look at those executed by the church.
If you are going to claim that Catholics today are much more righteous, more practicing and therefore more understanding of their faith than the Catholics leaders of the past, have fun with that.
More importantly, are you going to say God's punishment against the people of Lot was unjust?
Never has God punished a people the way He punished the people of Lut.

It's interesting that Mortify quoted only one section of an online fatwa regarding the punishment of homosexuals, but left everything else.

Such as one of the greatest minds of jurisprudence and the leader of the most followed school of thought, Abu Hanifa.
"Imam Abu Haneefah was of the view that the punishment for the homosexual should be less severe than the punishment for the adulterer, and it is a punishment to be determined by the judge (ta’zeer)."

Or that some scholars have said he should be flogged (whipped) if he is unmarried.


2. Write me a list of every atrocity committed by every Catholic person, ruler, king, country and empire and explain each and every single one of them and get back to me.
If you can't do this, then don't have the same expectation of me. Islam is above the mistakes of individual Muslims.
Btw there are no "Islamic countries" today as their governments have violated the laws of Allah (swt) on so many levels.






[quote]Oh, there is doubt. Source?[/quote]

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=20565
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rcc.htm
http://www.purpleunions.com/blog/2009/11/new-website-looking-to-out-gay-catholic.html
http://www.trosch.org/ant/gay_priests.html
http://www.gaycatholicforum.org/html/gay_priests.html

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

Why is it that while in Mecca Mohammed was preaching peace among other religions and so on? But when in Medina it was the total opposite, he preached conversion of all other religions and if they would not convert or be second class then they would be killed. Well it seems to be because while in Mecca he was just starting off with his campaign and didnt have a large enough army(mainly just his family and freinds) to do things the way he did in Medina. So he acted like he was about peace and unity among other religions and there people. he had many enemies so he was careful. But when his army got large enough and he had much power then Allah conveniently was telling him a whole nother way to go about with his campaign.

Edited December 14, 2009 by sacredheartandbloodofjesus

[OraProMe]

[quote name='extempers' date='13 December 2009 - 09:15 PM' timestamp='1260756918' post='2020003']
There is no sin greater than disbelief in God so San Francisco is not significant.
Far too often people justify their lifestyle over religion because they hear hell fire and brimstone speeches.
Rather, Islam is a way of life, we all struggle and fall and the only ones who fail are those that give up and never try again.


As for the connection, you are speaking in the PC world of activism. I am not. But nothing significant, so you can throw it away.

But there is no doubt that homosexuality is rising amongst Catholic priests.
We in Islam believe it is unnatural to ask anyone to abstain from marriage and intercourse as that is how we were created.
[/quote]

If anything homosexuality will be decreasing in the Catholic priesthood given new directives from the Vatican, but regardless I don't think many Catholics see any problem with homosexual priests aslong as they keep their vow of celibacy.

I don't want to seem disrespectful and I am on good terms with a few Muslims at my school but I find it quite odd that you say that celibacy causes priests to molest young boys. Didn't Muhhamed sleep with a 12 year old girl? I know we can go into the cultural basis of morality (for me atleast) but I just found it odd that you'd mention pedophilia given your prophet's marriage to a child.

Edited December 14, 2009 by OraProMe

[extempers]

The historical cultural context you bring is absolutely important, especially considering Mary's age.

It has always been the case that puberty is when adulthood starts. So she was not a "girl".
In fact, she was engaged to another non-Muslim man before others asked him to engage with her.

But no Muslim living in America would marry a 12 year old girl now. The expectations have changed and we treat even our teenagers like children. Culture has always played a major role in Islamic rulings. There is so much leeway for cultural practices so long as they do not violate Islamic laws.

And were all the boys molested at the age of puberty? I'm not entirely sure on this.

We were created in a certain way and while it is not necessarily unlawful to be celibate, it should not be asked of so many to take a vow of celibacy as we believe it does not bring someone closer to God.


Finally, I would not call someone a homosexual who doesn't act upon his desires because the title is in itself disgusting.
Rather we as Muslims say someone with SSA, or same sex attractions.

If you act upon them and accept them, then fine openly homosexual.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='extempers' date='14 December 2009 - 12:49 AM' timestamp='1260769799' post='2020093']
The historical cultural context you bring is absolutely important, especially considering Mary's age.

It has always been the case that puberty is when adulthood starts. So she was not a "girl".
In fact, she was engaged to another non-Muslim man before others asked him to engage with her.

But no Muslim living in America would marry a 12 year old girl now. The expectations have changed and we treat even our teenagers like children. Culture has always played a major role in Islamic rulings. There is so much leeway for cultural practices so long as they do not violate Islamic laws.
[/quote]

That's interesting and surprisingly modern.

[quote]
And were all the boys molested at the age of puberty? I'm not entirely sure on this.
[/quote]
No. In fact if the boys are under the age of puberty it is more properly called pedophilia and is unrelated to homosexuality.

[quote]
We were created in a certain way and while it is not necessarily unlawful to be celibate, it should not be asked of so many to take a vow of celibacy as we believe it does not bring someone closer to God.
[/quote]
The end bit of that is entirely dependent on individual experience.

[quote]
Finally, I would not call someone a homosexual who doesn't act upon his desires because the title is in itself disgusting.
[b]Rather we as Muslims say someone with SSA, or same sex attractions. [/b]
[/quote]

LOL WOW. Have you been borrowing from Rome?

[Guest Daniel Nicholas]

I don't understand why homosexuality in Islam is punishable by death, but Muhammad seemed to have no problem with transvestites ([b]Mukhannathun[/b] (Arabic مخنثون "effeminate ones", "men who resemble women", singular [i]mukhannath[/i]).

He encountered lots of Mukhannathun (transvestite/transsexuals) in Medina and he even even protected one from an angry mob, whilst homosexuality was punishable by death?

[Hassan]

[quote name='sacredheartandbloodofjesus' date='13 December 2009 - 09:37 PM' timestamp='1260758220' post='2020020']
Yes but the Church never infallibly taught that killing heretics was good or just or whatever. Islam staight up teaches that you have to kill any other person who will not accept Islam. It is the final scripture in the Quran. It makes null and void any other scripture in the Quran about mercy on enemies and people of other religions.
[/quote]
No, Islam does not "straight up" teach that. Islam 'straight up' teaches very little. There is no central teaching authority in Islam.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='13 December 2009 - 11:27 PM' timestamp='1260764853' post='2020074']
If anything homosexuality will be decreasing in the Catholic priesthood given new directives from the Vatican, but regardless I don't think many Catholics see any problem with homosexual priests aslong as they keep their vow of celibacy.

I don't want to seem disrespectful and I am on good terms with a few Muslims at my school but I find it quite odd that you say that celibacy causes priests to molest young boys. Didn't Muhhamed sleep with a 12 year old girl? I know we can go into the cultural basis of morality (for me atleast) but I just found it odd that you'd mention pedophilia given your prophet's marriage to a child.
[/quote]

Aisha was "married" to him when she was six years old, and he slept with her when she was nine years old. Before he slept with her, I believe he practiced something called "thighing" which is inappropriate to discuss so that is all I will say about that.

[quote name='extempers' date='14 December 2009 - 12:49 AM' timestamp='1260769799' post='2020093']
The historical cultural context you bring is absolutely important, especially considering Mary's age.
[/quote]

Mary was fifteen or sixteen when she married Joseph. Aisha was six.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Daniel Nicholas' date='14 December 2009 - 01:08 AM' timestamp='1260770917' post='2020097']
I don't understand why homosexuality in Islam is punishable by death, but Muhammad seemed to have no problem with transvestites ([b]Mukhannathun[/b] (Arabic مخنثون "effeminate ones", "men who resemble women", singular [i]mukhannath[/i]).

He encountered lots of Mukhannathun (transvestite/transsexuals) in Medina and he even even protected one from an angry mob, whilst homosexuality was punishable by death?
[/quote]

Excellent question. I, however, would just stop after saying "I don't understand why homosexuality in Islam is punishable by death" because that in and of itself is absolutely barbaric.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='14 December 2009 - 01:43 AM' timestamp='1260773038' post='2020101']




Mary was fifteen or sixteen when she married Joseph
[/quote]

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm

[i]
From the age at which Hebrew maidens became marriageable, it is possible that Mary gave birth to her Son when she was about thirteen or fourteen years of age. No historical document tells us how old she actually was at the time of the Nativity.[/i]

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='14 December 2009 - 01:45 AM' timestamp='1260773110' post='2020102']
Excellent question. I, however, would just stop after saying "I don't understand why homosexuality in Islam is punishable by death" because that in and of itself is absolutely barbaric.
[/quote]


Really now? That's a fascinating judgment. I'd love to see if you extend that to your God as well.

[HisChildForever]

To prevent any confusion from taking place, I have Hassan on ignore. Therefore I will not be reading his posts, nor will I be responding to them.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='14 December 2009 - 01:52 AM' timestamp='1260773525' post='2020106']
To prevent any confusion from taking place, I have Hassan on ignore. Therefore I will not be reading his posts, nor will I be responding to them.
[/quote]






Not again


The positive aspect of this is that now you will have an excuse not to address your blatant double standard on this issue. Of course you never addressed that when I wasn't on ignore...

Edited December 14, 2009 by Hassan

[OraProMe]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='14 December 2009 - 01:52 AM' timestamp='1260773525' post='2020106']
To prevent any confusion from taking place, I have Hassan on ignore. Therefore I will not be reading his posts, nor will I be responding to them.
[/quote]

Well it was an excellent question that still hasn't been answered by anyone so I think you might want to take a look

Hassan says:
[i]Really now? That's a fascinating judgment. I'd love to see if you extend that to your God as well. [/i]

The God Christians worship did sanction the barbaric execution of homosexuals.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='14 December 2009 - 02:17 AM' timestamp='1260775058' post='2020122']
Well it was an excellent question that still hasn't been answered by anyone so I think you might want to take a look

Hassan says:
[i]Really now? That's a fascinating judgment. I'd love to see if you extend that to your God as well. [/i]

The God Christians worship did sanction the barbaric execution of homosexuals.
[/quote]

I wouldn't call any of the punishments in the Mosaic law barbaric. Obviously the Old Law is more burdensome and less perfect than the New Law, but the Old Law was of God, too.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='14 December 2009 - 02:17 AM' timestamp='1260775058' post='2020122']
Well it was an excellent question that still hasn't been answered by anyone so I think you might want to take a look
[/quote]

I would rather not. I have him on ignore for a reason. He will do anything to take the focus off of Islam.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='14 December 2009 - 02:27 AM' timestamp='1260775674' post='2020128']
I would rather not.[/QUOTE]

I have no doubt about this.

[Resurrexi]

I'd be willing to dialogue with you about the immorality of homosexual acts, Hassan.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Hassan]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='14 December 2009 - 02:53 AM' timestamp='1260777239' post='2020152']
I'd be willing to dialogue with you about the immorality of homosexual acts, Hassan.
[/quote]


I don't think there is anything for us to discuss. I think your views are quite wrong however you seem to be consistent. You favor anti-sodomy laws and do not consider it barbaric to kill people 'guilty' of sodomy.

[extempers]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='14 December 2009 - 01:43 AM' timestamp='1260773038' post='2020101']
Aisha was "married" to him when she was six years old, and he slept with her when she was nine years old. Before he slept with her, I believe he practiced something called "thighing" which is inappropriate to discuss so that is all I will say about that.



Mary was fifteen or sixteen when she married Joseph. Aisha was six.
[/quote]

Engagement at 6, consummation of marriage at puberty aka 9.
The proposal to marry her was brought by others, not him.
Aisha was, yes at that age, ALREADY ENGAGED to another non-Muslim man.

It is the custom of Arab tribes back then to tighten relationships by direct marriage. Aisha (ra) was the daughter of Prophet Muhammad's (s) best friend Abu Bakr (ra).

Of all the people who hated Prophet Muhammad (s) it was the pagan Arabs. Never did they bring this topic up nor was it brought up for CENTURIES. It is a completely new concept based on the Western mindset of adulthood.


Out of all the arguments to dismiss Prophet Muhammad (s) this is by far the weakest.


So thankful to the Mother of the Believers, Aisha (ra). The greatest of scholars and of the best of examples.
Her erudition and knowledge of Prophet Muhammad's (s) daily life was unmatched.